VK in Datsun 510 Time Attack car?

[MBellRacing]

Hey all,

I've never been too engulfed in the Nissan community but have taken on a number of Datsun/Nissan projects. My first one was too simple for me so I moved up into the realm of being ridiculous. I have built up a Datsun 510 with a semi-tube frame, big rear diff, rear radiator, etc. Its basically a GT car with some classic styling. I have a completely built KA24deT looking to make 500+whp but I am rethinking the plan. Since I started buying the parts and building the engine a couple years ago, I have started racing professionally and have become very aware of the performance in driveability gained from a naturally aspirated engine. Doing rough research has brought me upon the VK engine. I have a few questions holding me back at first...

First off, what is the weight of the engine without the transmission? I know the KA motor is MONSTROUSLY heavy thanks to its iron block. I figure the V8 should be heavier, but not by much thanks to lightweight parts. I have a lot of rear weight on the 510 (intentionally...) and want to try and see how bad the balance will be off with a new motor.

I can't seem to find too many performance part options for this engine on simple searches-- this worries me. I am a bit confused at the difference in parts between the VK and the VH. I have seen cams for the VH but not the VK-- are they interchangeable? I need all the rebuilding parts, plus the upgradeables like pistons, cams, bearings, head gaskets, studs, etc. Does anybody have a good source for all these things?

I've heard rumors of pretty serious power from these motors, what can I expect from a stand-alone engine management with some seriously hot cams, higher compression, etc? I realize this is a super vague question, but I am curious if it's worth the responsiveness if my KA can make upwards of 700hp (its got the parts, it needs the tuning "testicles" to extract it).

Anybody seen any ballpark prices for a beat-but-buildable VK45? I've seen a number of them in the $1500-2000 range. Is this normal? I'm from [mostly] the BMW-end of the car market and have raced them my entire professional and amateur career to current. $2k for an engine is a FANTASTIC deal for a BMW and I want to make sure I'm looking at the right stuff!

Thanks in advance for any help I find on here, I'm excited to get going and want to see if I can make this happen!

Here's a picture of the car as of a couple months ago. Minor changes have been made, mostly to the interior and engine bay like steering and transmission stuff-- all of which will have to be removed to change motors as we packed all the components as tightly as possible! There have also been a number of changes to the rear cooling and fueling areas, so no comments on that, please!.....







The original KA24det 90% finished.....

Mock up of the front-end parts......

-Matt Bell


Modified by MBellRacing at 4:59 PM 8/29/2009

[XJared]

Nothing is interchangeable between the VK and VH. There isn't much shelf stuff available for the VK, but most piston and rod manufacturers will not charge extra for a custom set for a new engine if you send them the oe stuff to copy. Jim Wolf does have cams and valvesprings for the VK56, and there is also a company with ITBs for the VK56.

[Aus450zx]

which VK are you looking at? I've heard the 5.6 has cams available and have seen the ITB setup available but cannot see the point in choosing the vk45 over the VH45. The VH has upgrade pistons, studs, valve springs, many cam options, extractors/headers, bearings etc all available and is a cheaper engine to start with

[MBellRacing]

which VK are you looking at? I've heard the 5.6 has cams available and have seen the ITB setup available but cannot see the point in choosing the vk45 over the VH45. The VH has upgrade pistons, studs, valve springs, many cam options, extractors/headers, bearings etc all available and is a cheaper engine to start with

I think there's no real reason why I shouldn't just go with the VK56 is there? The only worry I have is weight and I can't find much evidence that the engine is much heavier without the transmission than any other VH/VK. Does anybody know the width of the VK56 or even the VK/VH45? I'd prefer to know a size without headers so I can figure out what needs to be hacked out of my engine. A height without manifold would be useful as well.

Thanks for all the info so far!

[XJared]

Let me know which VK56 measurements you need, I have one sitting around at work.

[XJared]

Also, just found out the VK56 and QR25 use the same part number head bolts, so I'm assuming buying two kits of QR25 head studs would do for one Vk56.

[Bart]

Im just hoping you use the VK/VH and turbo charge it when you transplant the motor in your little beast.

[MBellRacing]

Let me know which VK56 measurements you need, I have one sitting around at work.

I'd like to know the height (without the manifold-- just valve covers), the width (including valve covers), and the length, without pullies to the back of the block. I have spent probably $1000 in work through Impact Engineering making all my new quick-ratio rack and pinion steering and solid-mount engine mounts and all that to work with the KA, I want to know EXACTLY what needs to get removed to fit this new monster motor! Thanks for your help!!!

As for the turbo thing... no more turbo. After racing some V8 GT cars and Inline-6 GS cars, I can't go back to the boosted setup where I basically waste the first 1/3 of every corner waiting for my power to come on. I love the response of the NA cars and know I want that to go as fast as possible in my 510.

[Aus450zx]

thats doesn't happen with a large displacement boosted engines, could run a monster turbo without lag and really low boost threshold

[T45]

C'mon guys, he wants it to be drivable! How much does the 510 weigh? 2500 at the most? The VH45 would make this thing cook, let alone a stock VK56. You won't need turbos on it, you'll have enough torque to go as fast as you dare IMO.

If a stock VK56 can push a 5k lb Titan to 13 in the 1/4 mile and the VH45 can run a 4200 lb Q45 over 150 mph then why in the hell would you want to turbo a 510 track car? Seriously. lol

The VH is the better choice, they are cheap and you won't have to do as much research, wiring up the obd-II, trans adapter, etc. All of that has been done and documented and cams, ecu are already available.

If you have the bank for the VK swap then you won't be disappointed. Also, a bolt on supercharger is available if the VK power isn't enough for you, which I highly doubt.

The VH weighs in around 500 dressed. The VK should be in the ballpark since it was designed on the same platform and the VK56 should weight close to the VH and VK. All around 500.

[MBellRacing]

So the GT car I got to try out had 500whp/500wtq. The responsiveness was phenomenal and seriously was a huge advantge. I've driven high-boost V6 and I4 cars and there is definitely some speed lost and they just aren't as fun. If I boosted this motor it would be done via supercharger, and likely not the positive-displacement type as I doubt I'll have the room under the hood. I'd like to even experiment with using a CV drive off the pulley to maximize blower rpm at any engine speed. I could then use the stand-alone ECU to match the valve timing and the SC boost to scavenge and pressurize the engine most efficiently as possible at all times.

This car is aiming at unlimited class time attack so it needs all the power it can have, I just don't think turbo-4 engines are the way to go. I believe super response and a good balance of torque is the best way to make it around the track when there's no rules governing engine displacement.... And to asnwer your question, my Datsun with the Iron KA was UNDER 2100lbs... I heard the VK56 is something like 500lbs with all the aceceasories so I figure the car should still be under 2300lbs in the end!

I'm already using all custom driveline made by Richmond Gear, so there's no penalty to me going with and under-developed but more powerful engine like the 56.

[XJared]

Width and the widest point of the cylinder heads is 30"Length from bell housing flange to water pump snout is 25"Height from oil pan bottom to valve cover top is 30"

[MBellRacing]

Thanks! I'll see if it looks like it'll fit!

[ktzed]

I really HATE to say this, especially on this forum and especially since I REALLY want to see the VK/510 swap, but.....an LSX would serve you better in this application. It will be lighter, smaller and much easier to get big power out of considering the huge aftermarket. Just my opinion. (I still wanna see the VK swap though!)

[MBellRacing]

Haha... I know... I really do. But I have 2 problems with the LS:

1) I want to keep my swaps within brand, otherwise I should debadge the car and call it a Chevatun or a Devy........

2) My brother has a 240Z with an LS engine swapped in it and I would never live down following his swap footsteps.

I have a lot of confidence in the VK56 and am excited to get going on it! I just need to sell my friggin' KA24!!!!!!

[Bart]

GT3071 ball bearing turbos shouldnt create too much lag if any. You could go a little smaller like, GT28 series.

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/...edium

[MBellRacing]

Turbochargers just add a lot more hassle than I'm willing to put into this on top of trying to shoehorn a V8 into a shoeBOX. Also, I know even a small set of turbos will be enough to clog up my headers and keep that amazing response from being there.

I've started figuring out the CV-driven blower idea. The torque curve on the VK56, even with the JWT cams, is remarkably flat. I think with a supercharger being kept at a fairly stable and consistent rpm/flow rate, I can increase the torque of the engine without worrying about waiting for the efficiency to catch up. It would be like raising the whole torque curve up from stock. I can run the blower pulley ratio via the ECU based on RPM (and maybe combined with TPS depending on how quickly I can actuate the stepper control) and make it run a perfect RPM regardless of the crank speed.

If anybody sees a problem with this CV-Blower idea, please speak up before I get too far!!! I am just a wee wheel jockey and not an engineer!

It all takes money though..... anybody want a 500hp KA?..........................
Modified by MBellRacing at 11:18 AM 9/1/2009

[T45]

Looking at it realistically the LS is a better platform for this app. The guy was reading my mind. lol But, it's just not as cool. I've seen LS motors in Astro vans, go karts and chevettes. But ask anyone that has done the VH swap and the looks and compliments you'll get are worth the work alone, not to mention the torque and sound is incredible.

Anyways I believe you may have hood clearance issues with the stock intake so with that in mind, it would make sense to get the swap completed with stock intake, ECU, wiring, etc. Then after you drive it and get the bugs worked out, if you still feel the need for more you can always bolt on the stillen SC, which will be plug and play. No cams needed, no EMS, no custom mfg. +150hp or so, pump gas, super reliable.

What trans are you going to run? Adapter?

[MBellRacing]

Well everything will be custom. I'll be using a set of ITBs running into a 2-to-1 plenum if I run the supercharger I've been speaking of. It will be centrifugal off the front of the engine, so that will save me some top space there. If I run N/A I'll still have the same 2 plenums off ITBs but then run them straight down to ram air on the front of the car. With the radiator in the back, clever ducting would mean that the only use of the high pressure front end would be to feed the intakes-- has to be some HP there!

The transmission I'm using is a Richmond 5-speed. It is basically a Nascar 4-speed with an extra gear. The ratios are pretty perfect for both my KA24de and the VK56de and it has a great torque rating. It looks like the flexplate is separate of the flywheel on the VK56 so I can use my Clutch Masters sponsorship and have a custom flywheel/twin plate clutch setup. I can then have a custom bell housing made to space out the gearbox correctly. It sounds more complex than it is. We've actually already done it for the KA and it wasn't too bad, and the KA has a flexplate mounted to the flywheel which complicates things pretty dramatically!

[T45]

This is basically the only VK56 build on NICO. You may find good info here. I do insist that you get a towel first before viewing.

zer...71973

[MBellRacing]

Hey... does anybody know a rough number for the Volumetric Efficiency of the heads for a VK54de? I need this to try and figure out the rpm, and then psi, for the supercharger....... help ASAP would be appreciated!

[T45]

No known figures on the web that I know of. All that is known is the actual dimensions of the engine. Funny, the VK56 weighs less than the VK45...

http://www.clubtitan.org/forum...88730

[MBellRacing]

No known figures on the web that I know of. All that is known is the actual dimensions of the engine. Funny, the VK56 weighs less than the VK45...

http://www.clubtitan.org/forum...88730

I SAW that!!! So I can get a VK56de for like $1300 plus shipping with no transmission AND its lighter than the VH.... why would I go with a VH.... ?

[T45]

The VK56 is the more powerful engine. I picked up my 2nd VH45 for $450. The problem has always lied in the availability of the VK56. Now, they are becoming more available and affordable. Get one with the harness and ECU for $1500 and you're setting NICE!!!

[MBellRacing]

I still can't get over how cheap all these Nissan motors are! My KA was $200 running, and it came with a transmission!

I'm from the BMW world and NOTHING is under $2000. My touring car motor from 2003 is $25k to replace, and if I pop one of the M3 engines, that's no less than $30k. I'm kinda liking this Nissan stuff!!!

[MBellRacing]

So I did some rough numbers trying to figure out what sort of a CVT supercharging pressure v. flow that this engine would need. I'm not sure I did them right. I dunno if there are any engine physics gurus on here but some help would be much appreciated!

I got these numbers based on a VE of 90%:

1000 rpm = 89 cfm = 6.24 lb/min1500 rpm = 133 cfm = 9.32 lb/min2000 rpm = 178 cfm = 12.47 lb/min2500 rpm = 222 cfm = 15.56 lb/min3000 rpm = 267 cfm = 18.71 lb/min3500 rpm = 311 cfm = 21.79 lb/min4000 rpm = 356 cfm = 24.95 lb/min4500 rpm = 400 cfm = 28.03 lb/min5000 rpm = 445 cfm = 31.18 lb/min5500 rpm = 489 cfm = 34.27 lb/min6000 rpm = 534 cfm = 37.42 lb/min6500 rpm = 578 cfm = 40.50 lb/min7000 rpm = 623 cfm = 43.66 lb/min7500 rpm = 667 cfm = 46.74 lb/min

So hypothetically, I could run a supercharger at a variable speed based on creating the same amount of pressure for any flow rate/rpm. The impeller speed should increase as the flow rate of the engine increases as RPM increases (right?).

I had a good idea and now I'm over my head. I sure wish I had a brain... time to see the wizard!

I also checked to see if the engine itself would fit in the 510. It DOES. The only number I'm not sure about is the length front-to-back. 30" is like 5 full inches longer than the KA24 INCLUDING THE FAN CLUTCH! It was mentioned that the 30" mark was from the rear flange to the water pump and I could always just run an electric pump, but even 26-28" is a BIG friggin' motor!
Modified by MBellRacing at 4:46 PM 9/4/2009

[MBellRacing]

Width and the widest point of the cylinder heads is 30"Length from bell housing flange to water pump snout is 25"Height from oil pan bottom to valve cover top is 30"

Is the width WITH the valve covers or just the cylinder heads? Could you measure the bottom of the block to the top of the valve covers WITHOUT the oil pan involved? Maybe even a rough height from the motor mount to the valve cover? Also a width from exhaust flange to exhaust flange so I can see how much room I need for headers.

Thanks!!!

[XJared]

Is the width WITH the valve covers or just the cylinder heads? Could you measure the bottom of the block to the top of the valve covers WITHOUT the oil pan involved? Maybe even a rough height from the motor mount to the valve cover? Also a width from exhaust flange to exhaust flange so I can see how much room I need for headers.

Thanks!!!

The widest point of the V is at the corners of the cylinder heads, not the valve covers, that is the measurement I listed. Do you need a measurement without the upper oil pan or without the lower oil pan? Top of engine mount flange to top of valve cover is around 13". Width from exhaust flange to exhaust flange is about 20".

[MBellRacing]

Thanks XJared... ENORMOUS help! We'll see what I can do with those measurements.

[MBellRacing]

Okay, one more, Jared!

I need the length from the back of the block to the front of the block, not including any accessories and not including the water pump, just the block itself. Thanks, you're a big help on this!