VH45DE oil pan design..

[elwesso]

From a technical stand point, how well designed is the Q oil pan...? Is there any chance of oil starvation, say through drifting or autoX or something like that???

I know that some other cars get upgraded oil pans for extra capacity and stuff like that, for appropriate racing....

Any comments appreciated.

[Q45tech]

And which team of engineers will spent the $500,000 necessary to redesign it.

Road clearance is a problem as we must have changed a dozen oil pans and a like amount of engines from hitting and damaging oem.

Note what Stillen did for V6 3.5 just build a 1" spacer to drop pan and a 1" extenstion for pickup tube.........extra volume without redesign.

[elwesso]

And which team of engineers will spent the $500,000 necessary to redesign it.

Road clearance is a problem as we must have changed a dozen oil pans and a like amount of engines from hitting and damaging oem.

Note what Stillen did for V6 3.5 just build a 1" spacer to drop pan and a 1" extenstion for pickup tube.........extra volume without redesign.

Thanks tech... I appreciate your reply... I dont thikn one could drop the oil pan 1 inch without hitting the cross member... I personally feel that its adequate but someone else with a modded VH45 was telling me the "front sump" design is no good... The only thing I dont see why it would make much difference, because the oil cant go to the back unless you held it vertically.

[qship96]

would love to find a way to get oil capacity to 9 quarts.

[maxnix]

would love to find a way to get oil capacity to 9 quarts.

Easy! Convert to a dry sump.

[Q45CALIBER]

Easy! Convert to a dry sump.

Is there a application one could use with out extreme modification assuming there is not one made specificly for the G50. I don't have any extreme mods but I think the benifits may be worth the convert.

[squeefoo]

would love to find a way to get oil capacity to 9 quarts.

You could add a reservoir after a cooler and remote oil filter (if you position it right you could fit a massive filter in there). Not a whole lot of room though, -make a custom reservoir to fit?

Same thing could be done with the PS system...

[elwesso]

would love to find a way to get oil capacity to 9 quarts.

Not trying to pick a fight, but why?

[qship96]

wes,notice every MB,BMW,Porsche,etc uses much larger oil sump capacities than the q has-most are 8-9 quarts,with some being 12+ quarts.larger sump allows for longer oil life and less oil temp buildup,enhancing durability of the engine.

[elwesso]

interesting.. would it not be easier to change the oil sooner and install an oil cooler? i have contemplated doing that.

[RobertsnewQ]

I think it's a damn good design compared to some others - that's some pretty trick baffling for an OEM pan. But yeah, front sump blows for drag racing.

Think about it - when you accelerate all the oil wants to rush to the back of the pan. That means away from where the oil pickup is...

A stock Q will never launch hard enough for it to make a difference.

If it bothers you, just get an Accusump.

[Rex]

I think it's a damn good design compared to some others - that's some pretty trick baffling for an OEM pan. But yeah, front sump blows for drag racing.

Think about it - when you accelerate all the oil wants to rush to the back of the pan. That means away from where the oil pickup is...

A stock Q will never launch hard enough for it to make a difference.

If it bothers you, just get an Accusump.

I was thinnking the same thing, front sump is bad for drag racing, but with baffles and the real world use of a Q, it's a non-issue. Though when Dr. B was running that huge shot of nitrous, he may have experienced a few seconds of decreased oil flow, but not starvation.

[elwesso]

I dont even see how thats posisble (decreased flow) because that baffle that you see on top is covered by about 4+inches of oil (from the front of the pan)...

IMO, braking has more of an effect on the oil pickup than does acceleration... you brake at a much faster rate of acceleration (negative) than you do when you are accelerating (positive)

[Rex]

You're right, thus the oil pan design of the Q, a street driven car, but as said above, in the drag racing world, where "contenders" are trying to hook up/launch hard enough to pull the front tires, then think about how the oil would be "effectively" rushing to the rear of the oil pan.

[elwesso]

Im really glad this is turning into a good discussion.....

Just so everyone knows, im not trying to argue with anyone, im trying to figure out something...

Another member with a VH45 was talking to me how the stock design sucks.. I got to think about it, and I guess when he was talking to me he caught me off guard... I had no choice but to agree with him at that time....

If you were say running 450HP or so (not stressful at all on this engine), and you were even able to completely "hook up" on the launch, i dont even see how oil flow would be diminished at all.....

Im going to make a few more posts attaching pictures of the oil pan and stuff like that Ive found.....

[elwesso]

Notice in the above picture. there are holes in the baffle, and they are only in the sides, so oil cannot really go out of the lowe area during braking or accleration.

[RobertsnewQ]

Notice in the above picture. there are holes in the baffle, and they are only in the sides, so oil cannot really go out of the lowe area during braking or accleration.

There is space between the "baffle plate" (really more of a windage tray) in the diagram and the sump (the deep area). The cover over the sump is the real baffle in that design, and it has holes in the back too. That baffle plate won't stop much oil from crawling out of the sump in a high-g situation.

Also think about how the oil gets there in the first place. As it drains from the top end of the engine, it falls down in a rain of oil onto the "baffle plate", and through to the sump.

If you're drag racing (or road racing, whatever) and you're in a high-g situation long enough, the oil draining back down to the pan can't make it to the sump. Eventually the sump runs dry from the suction of the pump.

Sure, most of the oil that started out in the sump stayed there, but as it was depleted not all if it made it back.

When you hit the brakes, the oil is helped down to the sump by the g-forces.

[elwesso]

I was not referring to that upper baffle plate, i was talking about the lower part inside the oil pan...

Also i noticed there was another plate that sticks up from the oil pan that would prevent the oil from going all the way to the back of the pan..

IMO, the VH45, even with boost, cannot cause a Q45 or any other vehicle to accelerate so rapidly for so long that oil starvation becomes an issue.

[squeefoo]

IMO, the VH45, even with boost, cannot cause a Q45 or any other vehicle to accelerate so rapidly for so long that oil starvation becomes an issue.

I agree, since it would take 1 G of accelleration to uncover the sump appreciably.

A crank scraper and a windage screen might help get it all into the pan a little faster, but then again I haven't read of anyone having oil starvation issues around here yet -as long as we change the oil before it gels

[FarFetched]

A dry sump would be a lot better for a boosted vehicle!I've set up a Ford Bronco (helped friend of mine) for rock-crawling competition. We used remote tank to supply oil to the engine. even at almost 90 degrees there was no starvation at all. He had oil tank set up similar to R/C scale aircraft with articulating/swiveling pick-up (very sleek design).That would be the ultimate oil supply system!Cheers!

[elwesso]

hardly necessary IMO for a Q even used at thet rack.. but interesting indeed.

[John Dixon]

I should have my dry sump pan back this week from the fabricators, can post up some pics when it's done. Using the stock baffle plate but with scrapers added to the back of it.

[elwesso]

John, do you think the stock VH45 oil pan is decent enough for mild boosting and stuff like that?

[maxnix]

I should have my dry sump pan back this week from the fabricators, can post up some pics when it's done. Using the stock baffle plate but with scrapers added to the back of it.

That will be much appreciated.

[John Dixon]

John, do you think the stock VH45 oil pan is decent enough for mild boosting and stuff like that?

Not sure to be honest, it does look pretty good to me. I'm guessing the Q is not the sort of car where you'll be generating a lot of conering force, which was my concern and the horizontal baffle should keep a small amount of oil around the pickup for short bursts.Biggest concern would be sustained hard acceleration I guess. Think the only way you'll know is fit a high pressure oil p. warning lamp/buzzer and watch it carefully when you're driving.You could always fit an oil pressure accumulator, but again it's only a transient thing.

[Q45tech]

Since a stock Q can't ever accelerate faster than 0.5 G [240 lb/ft x 9.85=...........2400 lb/ft/4300 pounds x tire friction a $500 oil pan design was all we got.

Adding 1 quart to a 6 quart oem design allows oil to last much longer than one would assume from just the 16.6% volume increase.

Mercedes claims the 9 quarts vs 6 can double the change interval.With synthetics [ Mobil 1] they spec at 10,000 miles or 6 months which ever is sooner............ from our C43 AMG Manual.

[qship96]

q45tech,this is why my friends e420 with 248,000 miles burns no oil and still runs near new even with his 12-25,000 mile oil change behavior.he laughs at my 90 day 5-6000 mile changes using Redline-says I am babying the thing! would love to find a way to get the q up to 8-9 qts

[elwesso]

About the easiest way I could think of would be to cut off the bottom of the oil pan and add on about an inch.. that should put it up to at leaset 7.5 qt. Id feel uncomfortable about the oil pan sticking down that low though. the oil pan is kinda vulnerable as it is.

[Q451990]

What about using some series of coolers in the "A" location in the gap in front of the left wheel well? Even if you weren't trying to get air in there to cool them, running three or four coolers in series would hold the oil and increase the capicity of the system. I'm just not sure about flow restrictions, etc... You could add the remote filter at the same time.

Heath

[Jesda]

With the scrapes and dings on my Q's oil pan, and what appears to be a section where it was welded back together, there's no way I'd ever drop it.

I remember Q45Tech previously mentioning that the Q used lower capacities for coolant and other fluids to reduce the weight of an already heavy car?