VH45 into S1 RX7!

[Wes M]

Will a VH45DE + Auto fit into a Series 1 RX7 Chassis??



Answer will be posted tomorrow (with pictures).

Wes (another one)

[Carl H]

chevy 350 fits in there really well with ample space to the sides...but then again its a 60* v8...vh is 90* + twincam heads.take some measurements!

[elwesso]

I dont think it will fit without modifications... I bet the bellhousing needs clearanced as well as the alternator.

Not insurmountable by any stretch of the imagination!

[Orphan]

I know it will fit in an FD not that that helps you. Just get the measurements of the engine bay etc and you should be able to work it out via the dimensions posted on this forum. From memory the engine is 680mm wide valve cover to valve cover but thats just from memory.

[SuperHatch]

chevy 350 fits in there really well with ample space to the sides...but then again its a 60* v8...vh is 90* + twincam heads.take some measurements!

Chevy 350 is 90* FYI

[Orphan]

I thought the majority of small and big blocks were 90 degree. Just random info but the VH is only ~51mm wider than an LS1. Definately fits in FD's and most likely FC's as I remember them having very similar engine bay dimensions. From what i've seen the series 1 looks quite a bit smaller. Looking forward to pics.

[Wes M]

Oh Yes!

[Wes M]

I dont think it will fit without modifications... I bet the bellhousing needs clearanced as well as the alternator.

Not insurmountable by any stretch of the imagination!

A few days ago I would have agreed with you.. but fortunately for me the RX7 has a simply huge transmission tunnel - aided by the fact that the cross member is spaced down about 1" (engine sits lower). I'm actually starting to think I may be able to close the bonnet after removing some of the pesky reinforcing on the underside!

Chassis rails and strut towers I believe are slightly wider than the Silvias (240s?) which gives a bit of extra room for my exhaust. I've not checked the alternator clearance yet - but I had already planned on repositioning it.

Plenty of room for the radiator and I may even get the stock clutch fan in (if I can find one which isn't cracked.

All in all so far I am a very with how everything fits - I've replaced the stock subframe with one from a S4 rx7 which gives me a lower mounting, bigger brakes, better suspension and... Power steering!!!

<Watch this space!>

[Wes M]

For those who wondered - This one is similar to what my car looks like. Only mine is in a candy blue with different wheels and (presently) minus the roll bar.

[Carl H]

huh, wonder where i got the 60* chevy 350 bit from...oh well learn something new every day.

[Raxephon]

Will a VH45DE + Auto fit into a Series 1 RX7 Chassis??



Answer will be posted tomorrow (with pictures).

Wes (another one)

It fits in an '88 FC just fine.

[Orphan]

Wow I didn't think there would be that much room, it must have pretty much the same width as the FC and FD. Thats a great thing about engine conversions for the RX7 is they all have quite large transmission tunnels so you can fit just about anything in there. I've never heard of any trans to date not fitting that said a Z32 with starter on the side could quite possibly be the first.

And is it just me and my vision that see's a rear sump on that thing :S I'm guessing its custom as I can see welds :P Got any more pics of it? I need a rear sump set up for my eventual transplant and dry sump is a bit too costly atm.

Any chance you can measure the width between the rails and the width between the towers for me?

[Wes M]

And is it just me and my vision that see's a rear sump on that thing :S I'm guessing its custom as I can see welds :P Got any more pics of it? I need a rear sump set up for my eventual transplant and dry sump is a bit too costly atm.

Haha not much gets past you! It is indeed a rear sump - my first attempt at welding sumps.. I simply cut the flange of with a cutting disc and spun it around 180degrees and MIG welded it back on. There is a change in width of the sump on one end so you need to weld a couple of strips of sheet metal in. All in all very straight forward. I'm very happy with how it turned out, no measureable warpage. Did a quick with dye penetrant for leaks and plugged those up...

The only downside i've come across is that the lower gearbox to engine braces now foul on the sump. I'm not sure if I should just leave it or make up some new braces.

The oil pickup needs to be extended to the back of the sump - I've seen some pics of someone whos done it on this forum. The dipstick also needs to be relocated.

I'll take some pics of it once I finish the engine mounts and pull the engine out again.

[Wes M]

Any chance you can measure the width between the rails and the width between the towers for me?

Does this help?



Let me know if you need any other measurements.. I also have a similar drawing for the FC. What are you swaping into what?

[Wes M]

It fits in an '88 FC just fine.

I bet it does.. your FC per chance? Any pics?

[Orphan]

Thanks for the info wes, for extending the pick up did you just get some pipe the same gauge and run it down the side then bend it down and weld on the standard pickup funnel? I'd love any pics of it if you have. I'm planning out putting a VH into an FD so its either rear sump or dry sump atm.

Thanks for the diagram, I actually think the SA22C might have a wider engine bay than an FD I guess to fit wider tyres on but stay within the width restrictions they wanted they had to make it narrower. If you could measure the space between the rails themselves just for further reference i'd be greatful. The FD is 28" rail to rail. That said it is 31" centre of rail to centre of rail on the first gen RX7 diagram you posted so if they only have to be 3" thick rails to make it the same width as an FD rail to rail.

Can't wait to see how your project turns out. I almost bought an SA22C middle of last year, was in good nick no rust but engine was on the way out, the guy only wanted $400 and it was clean with decent interior.

[Wes M]

Hi Orphan,

I've just checked.. the FB rails are about 29" so a little more space than the FD. I haven't re-routed the pickup yet but will be sure to post pics when its done.

I'm seriously considering going straight to a manual setup now rather than using the auto box.. I have both a Rb25det and W58 box available, although the det box was intended for another project..

[Orphan]

Just got back

Unless you want the VH to be auto for a long time may as well convert it now. The W58's seem to hold ok on 1UZ swaps but from what i've heard they aren't very good for much more power/torque then that, but they are cheap so if you kill one you can get another one cheap. Go the RB box if your other project doesn't need it :P Then upload the adapter plate cad files :P hahaha.

[Wes M]

CAD? Haha I having used that in years

Well I am thinking of using the RB gearbox.. I can then sell the W58 - they go for around $7-800 and use it to buy a GTR gearbox for my other build.

Plan would be to machine off the bolting face of the RB bell housing and weld on a plate to match the VH bolt pattern. (gives me an excuse to buy an aluminum welder!)

More good news.. I test fitted the power steering pump and oil filter mount and both clear the rail by 10-15mm. Does anyone know how much the engine moves when using the stock motor mounts? Ie is 10-15mm adequate or will I need something a little more solid?

Alternator fitment looks to be out of the question as the bracket fouls on the steering rack. Will have to find some means of relocating it..

Orphan.. where are you at with your build? Do you have the FD already?

[Wes M]

If one of our kind moderators sees fit to change the thread title to something more informative ie VH into Rx7. Then I shall do my best to keep this thread up to date with my progress.

[Orphan]

Good to hear wes. I have no idea, would definately need to see what the Q45 guys say. The engine in my soarer barely moves at all even with the original mounts, there is no movement at idle and revving on the spot but i'd assume there would be some in gear changes on the road. 10-15mm might be enough but its still a tight fit. I think i'd personally want at least 20-25mm all round if possible.

Build is no where yet, its in the get as much info as I can to make sure it will work before I start phase. I have 10k saved up for the roller atm but they are a bit more expensive over here than in the u.s. I should be able to get a pretty decent one for around 12-3k so 2-3k more to go before I get the roller then after that just need the engine and trans, plan is to definately just get it up and running in stock form with a manual trans then go from there if I decide to go turbo or N/A. Eventual goal is 450rwhp so i'm thinking a turbo set up would be a bit more cost effective as my step brother is a qualified boiler maker so he can do all the welding and i'll just use steam pipe bends for the manifolds. This is a car I don't plan on getting rid of any time soon, its main purpose will be to be a street legal track car. Probs only drive it on weekends or out on the track for the most part as I already have a daily and can get better insurance (due to my age) if the car gets less road use.

I've been talking to some engineers regarding dry sump pan design and have got a base model i'm working on for the toyota 1UZ so if I can get that one working well I'll at some stage make one for the VH though machining costs are horrendous, gonna have to make friends with someone who has a cnc set up haha.

[Mettler]

I hope you reinforce the shell, I'd hate to see your car banana really fast from the torque

[Wes M]

I hope you reinforce the shell, I'd hate to see your car banana really fast from the torque

Indeed. There is already a considerable amount of steelwork reinforcing the chassis from the firewall back. Looks not unlike the Auckland harbour bridge under there! This was all part of the original convertable conversion. From the firewall forward I am adding additional steelwork under the chassis rails through to the front of the cross member. This was initially intended as a spacer to lower the cross member/engine, but by welding it to the rails it will also give extra support. There will be a new strut to strut to firewall brace to replace the one I have taken out. The plan is also to install a roll bar which will incorporate some extra bracing to help stiffen the chassis up. But I want to keep this as discrete as possible - not wanting to drive around in a jungle gym.

[Wes M]

If one of our kind moderators sees fit to change the thread title to something more informative ie VH into Rx7. Then I shall do my best to keep this thread up to date with my progress.

Thankyou!

[Wes M]

Well I finally found some space in the garage again and made good on my decision to dump the auto. I scored a (what looks to be) decent VGTT gearbox for a good price along with a exedy clutch kit and sourced myself a flywheel. Got some 10.9 flywheel bolts after a bit of searching.

A friend of mine from work is doing the same conversion on a Z32 so we set about finding a way to bolt the gearbox to the engine.

Before starting I found that the remote shifter was going to sit a little too far back in the RX7. Fortunately for me I happened to have a RB25DET gearbox which I was planning to use for another project. The RB gearbox doesn't have the remote shift and looks like it will be just the right length. Problem was is the RB gearbox has the starter motor on the engine side and I really wanted to be on the gearbox side to give me a little extra room for headers/mounts etc.

Solution was to do a bellhousing swap over between the RB and VG gearboxes. Unlike most other gearboxes I've worked with these bellhousings form a part of the actual gearbox casing so the operation of swapping them over is a little more involved than just a few bolts. That said it wasn't a difficult task and gave me a good chance to inspect the internals of the boxes.

While it was off, we used the VG bellhousing to spot the holes for dowels and bolts in our adapter plate. From the pics below you'll notice our adapter plate is a little different. There were two things I was a little uncomfortable about with some of the other plates (I tend to be overly cautious with these types of things and have a tendancy to over engineer).

1) I did not want to use a spacer behind my flywheel2) I did not like that most plates only bolt to the engine and gearbox over 1/2 of the circumference of the bellhousing

After some head scratching we came up with the plate you see below. The plate is 16mm thick and we skimmed an equal amount from mating face of the VG bellhousing. Initially the plan was to weld the plate to the bellhousing but we quickly realised that in spite of removing 16mm there was still a substancial amount of material remaining at the bolt holes. We added a couple of additional mounting points to bolt through for extra insurance giving a total of 9x (or was it 10?) bolts and 2x dowels.

The next challenge was fixing the plate to the engine. Because of the rear sump the existing VH braces could not be used. And to make matters worse, the VG start motor fouled on on of the bolt holes in the engine block. That section had to be removed. Making new braces to work around the rear sump looked like they would end up too flimsy and awkward. The solution was simple. I reinforced the back of the sump with some 3mm plate and welded 2x nuts to it. The sump on its own is remarkably solid and adding the plate to it seriously beefed it up even further. So I was now happy with mounting points completely around the circ of the plate.

As it turned out, it appears the end of the VH crankshaft sits about 4mm further away from the gearbox than does the VG. As a result the started was only barely engaging on the flywheel. I had to conceed defeat here and ended up using the 4mm spacer ring from the auto to push it up a little. Not too worried about 4mm tho

Anyways here are some pics. also included are some shots of my modified oil pickup and the new dipstick location.

[Wes M]

[Wes M]

So I've found the slave cylinder fouls by ~1mm on the plate. Nothing a hand file wont fix. But I'm now wondering how the master to slave cylinder diameters will work between the 7 and the VG. Otherwise I may need to get a master from a Z32..

I've started work on the engine mounts.. This will be a little tricky because the engine mount locations are towards the front, but the cross member mounts are towards the back... but I have a plan, hopefully will get some more time over the next couple of days..

This would all go so much faster if I didn't have to earn a living.

P.S. Al if your reading this thanks for all your help with the plate bro! Hope the knee heals up nice n fast cause your gonna need it for the gas pedal!

[Wes M]

Okay made some more progress.. The engine and gearbox are in and everything fits with space to spare!

I stole the alternator off my brothers Cefiro and made a new lower bracket to tuck it up in closer to the block.

The engine mounts are like boat anchors, made from 10mm plate. Maybe a bit overkill but I needed something solid because the mounts on the s4 rx7 cross member were towards the back of the block whereas the mounts on the engine were towards the front. I inverted the factory VH mounts and they bolt up nicely to the 7 crossmember.

The engine did clear the existing brake booster, but as I'm going for larger calipers front and back I have opted for a tandem 8+7 S14 booster (M195T). This should run nicely with the S13 non abs m/c which plumbs more or less into the existing rx7 brake lines.

Of course the bigger brake booster fouled on the body, clutch m/c and the engine (although I notice the pcd is the same as the rx7). So I've had to relocate it upwards and slightly to the left by welding in a new plate on the firewall. This in turn meant I could not use the existing brake pedal assembly so I had to hack an reweld the brake pedal bracket (also stolen from my brothers cefiro). The brake pedal arm also needed to be shortened about 50mm as it sat too far below the accelerator pedal - nothing a little mig welding couldn't sort.

The RB gearbox with the VG bellhousing JUST fits within the shifter cutout. Actually I'm happy with its location because being tall I tend to sit further back from the wheel anyway. The gearbox mount once again utilised the existing rubber mount down to the diagonal bracing under the car. Transmission tunnel clearance looks a little tight for the large VG gearbox yoke due to the location of the handbrake but I'm confident it should still fit.

Also ran some fuel hardlines from the tank to the engine and back and I swear I will never attempt anything like that again. Fuel pump is in, but needs an extra mount as its flopping about quite a bit on the existing 2 mounts.

The next stage of the build takes me to the clutch system. I've been trying to source a VG30dett clutch booster and pedal assembly though I might as well go looking for a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. Definitely not easy to find. As a back up plan I may modify another brake pedal and use a 5" clutch booster from a landcruiser and then adapt a VG m/c to that.

Never thought it would be so much work... and I havn't even started on the diff or the wiring yet!

[Wes M]

[Orphan]

Looking good Wes, can't wait to see it all finished and some vids :P I can't wait to have the cash to get my own project rolling. I really need to find the space to do it which is a bigger issue than money at the moment. I'm keen on doing a FD with either a turbo VH or a VQ30DET, the latter seems like a better option as its a lot lighter and lower compression standard but that 4.5L grunt would be crazy. Waiting on some dyno graphs from one in Australia to see if the torque is any good on them.