VG30DE(TT) in a S13... Your opinions...

[masticatingcow]

Hey NICO--

I'm really considering swapping a Z32 VG30DE(TT) into my s13. I put the TT in parenthases (sp?) because I'm not sure if I can get both stock turbos to fit. Before you scroll downand hit REPLY to say "NOT LEGAL MORON", I've checked and as long as the donor car/engine is CA registered and younger than the receiving chassis, you can get it registered with the BAR to pass smog. Here's a registration sticker on a Civic.

So, after doing my reseach, here's the logic behind my decision. PLEASE correct me if I'm off anywhere... (besides swapping the VG.. I know there are cheaper ways to do it. And I don't want to leave CA just to escape smog laws.)

1. VG engine will provide more torque. Bigger displacement = bigger torque.2. Stock TT setup is UDSM, therefore legal for swap purposes. This is VERY important because I live in CA and would rather not dodge the smog Nazis. (Note: From what I understand, the KA-T is not CA smog legal.)3. Stock TT setup is rated at 276 hp, with is almost double stock KA, almost 1.5x higher than stock SR. Unlike SR swaps, which almost always require mroe modding to achieve desired numbers.4. USDM = higher availability of parts. Important because you never know.5. There will be tons of room in front of engine for FMIC, turbos. Good to have wiggle room.

That said, here are the downsides I can think of to such a swap...

1. Cost of custom fabrication. Motor mounts, intake/exhaust manifolds, who knows what else.2. Electronics. Harnesses will not match up (duh) and will need special work.3. Down time. Since the swap isn't as popular as the SR or RB swaps, a speed shop will need more time to do it properly. (FYI: I'm not swapping this myself. No way.)4. Cost, lack of funds. I'm a college student... money and I sleep in different beds. (I don't have a lot of money, and it takes a lot of work for me to get any.)

One plus to my being in college and subsequentially being poor is that this gives me at least two more years to save up and research the project before dumping cash on it. Also, if I can wait that long, I'll have a salary check coming twice a month to help offset the balance.

Just another thing... anybody in So Cal who would want to be part of this project that would work for fried chicken and beer? I know NICO is loaded with guys and gals who have a lot more automotive knowledge than I do...

In reality, this is just me thinking aloud... but any suggestions (besides "go SR") would be appreicaited. My goal is to have a street-legal (no really, I want it LEGAL) torque-happy car with good power (250-300 rwhp). I don't have any great plans for the track or drifting or anything, but having the option to chase a SVT Mustang in the future would be nice.

Thanks everybody!

FYI: CA Engine Swap Laws

[Onizuka]

Looks like you have put a TON of though into this. It is posible, but like you said, some of the custom work will be expensive. Space managment will be your biggest issue. I can see the need for alternate turbo placment and custom piping. The transmission tunnel probably isnt big enough to squeeze the 300zx manual transmission, so it will probably have to be adjusted with a extra large pound-o-meter. Hope you go through with it, badass swap.

[f s t caz]

Looks like you have put a TON of though into this. It is posible, but like you said, some of the custom work will be expensive. Space managment will be your biggest issue. I can see the need for alternate turbo placment and custom piping. The transmission tunnel probably isnt big enough to squeeze the 300zx manual transmission, so it will probably have to be adjusted with a extra large pound-o-meter. Hope you go through with it, badass swap.

Looks like a VG30DET to me, or atleast a CIMA manifold and probably heads.

[mrflip69]

Hey there, I've been thinking about doing the same thing. I even bothered the guys at Garage Works about swapping a USDM 2JZ into an S13 and they quoted about roughly 12k for everything. Doesn't sound unreasonable at all, but according to their smog guy, legal engine swaps must be from the same MAKE of the car which I have not been able to verify, though I still highly doubt that IS the case.

Anyway, yeah that picture is from meggala's hybrid section yes? They say the most complicated part of a VG30DETT swap would be the turbo piping, and any maintenance work would be quite a ***** because of how cramped it would be. (But it's like that on the 300zx anyway so nyah :P)

I too fear the smog nazis... and why not just get a fast car without the swap? Well my S13 has grown on me, and you can't beat that power-weight ratio Anyway, some suggestions I give you, if your car is a CA-Smog model (as indicated by ECU or VIN), you must swap in a CA-Smog engine, not necessarily CA registered. Since you have time to wait, you could possibly go KAT because sooner or later, Greddy will HOPEFULLY get CARB Certified... and all you'd have to do is swap in a 96+ KA. If not, let me know where/when you get your VG30DETT done and hook me up with some info!

[[Zero-S]]

I'd like to see this happen, I was planning on swapping a vg30e engine from a n/a 300zx earlier in the game, but I was swayed by the whole custom fabbing of parts thing.

[k6kicker]

yeah i know what a vg30dett looks liek and that my friend isnt one

[[s3]]

don't, the $ factor would be fairly high, and the VG isn't the most friendliest motor to work on.

Twinturbo - twice the everything

[s13coupe90]

If you want to do it, and have the resources, time, money, place, friends, and support to do it, then go for it.

[Syntax360]

i love the VG's, but I wouldn't do it either. I don't guess a VQ35DE would be more economical in 2 years when the price should be a LITTLE lower just for the motor. At least u wouldn't have to worry about space as much (or are they huge too?)

[Onizuka]

yeah i know what a vg30dett looks liek and that my friend isnt one

Its a VG30DET, i assumed they have the same block, my bad.

[masticatingcow]

Thanks for all the great replies, everyone... I'd like to address a couple of the comments some of you dropped.

I know going into this that it won't be cost-effective. My primary stumbling blocks are the price for the swap and the sheer feasiblity of cramming the DE engine in there. Off the top of my head, the VG30E wasn't in production in 91, so it's not available for the swap. (Correct me on that if I'm off!)

Smog legality is a big issue for me... CA is tightening the "free-play" around smog laws and as easy as a KA(T) build or SR swap would be, the hassle of keeping it on the road is a real deterrant. If a CARB-exempt system is developed for the OBDII KA, then great. That would solve a lot of my problems. Until then, this VG-SX is my best solution yet.

The VG30DE(TT) should be available for swap, despite the fact that it comes from another chassis. I have to talk to a smog ref in person (not an easy thing to do) to finalize that. I included a reference site that details the requirements for the donor engine. I think the VG fits the order.

We'll see how this goes. I'm not unhappy with my KA, even in NA form. Day to day, the stock engine is fine, perfectly reliable and quick enough to get me where I need to be. Somehow, though, a part of me finds that sometimes lacking and this is my theoretical solution.

Keep feeding me info, everyone. Positive or negative, it's all helpful. Anything you find or know would be great.

[barrigas14]

waste of money...kinda like a RB26DETT or S15 SR. the VG would take up so much space and would be terrible to work on.

who cares if it has been done before...fast is fast. KA+t, Sr, or RB2(0 or 5) are better choices.

[mrflip69]

^^^ If you read anything at all, this thread is about having a smog LEGAL swap in California. SR, CA, RB, or KAT (as of now) are NOT options. Honestly, some of us don't feel like getting our cars impounded and having to hassle with courts and other bull**** fines. So there's a bunch of you in California that take that risk, but not everyone has money to burn on another 240sx.

You're right, fast is fast, but legal is legal!

[jdmfreak]

Glad I dont live out there.

[barrigas14]

^^^ If you read anything at all, this thread is about having a smog LEGAL swap in California. SR, CA, RB, or KAT (as of now) are NOT options. Honestly, some of us don't feel like getting our cars impounded and having to hassle with courts and other bull**** fines. So there's a bunch of you in California that take that risk, but not everyone has money to burn on another 240sx.

You're right, fast is fast, but legal is legal!

then he shouldn't be asking about a VG or any swap at that matter. sounds like he is going to do something reguardless. just giving him a worth while opinion because that swap would be a waste of money.

[f s t caz]

Off the top of my head, the VG30E wasn't in production in 91, so it's not available for the swap. (Correct me on that if I'm off!)

you might be wrong. The early 90's maxima i believe had a VG30E. Also, the better option, is a Pathfinder/Frontier motor - the VG33E - which is almost identical to the later model Z31 motors, only with slightly higher compression, and the extra 0.3L displacement. It is a very good motor if you intend on turbocharging it. Its quite a popular motor for the Z31 crowd, and many of the people who have high power #'s (for Z31's) are using that block, with i believe, little/no modifications.

[masticatingcow]

I went with a friend to get his car smogged (bi-annually) and off hand I asked the tech if this kind of thing would be legal. He said (and I'm paraphrasing) that it should be legal because the donor VG would be CA certified and under similar smog restrictions. He didn't know if they'd be the same, but that seems to fit the bill under CA's Engine Swap Laws (Classification: Both are passenger vehicle engines.)

Of course, this guy isn't a ref and wouldn't have known for sure, but I'm in the process of finding someone at the DMW who will know definitively.

barrigas14, I think you're under the impression that engine swapping of any kind is illegal in CA. Not true. Look at the BAR sticker that the Civic is sporting... the 92 Civic has a D16 (I believe...) which is 0.2 L smaller than the donor engine, the Acura B18. Not only is it a different make of engine, it's a bigger size! Yet, it's legal.

My hypothetical sticker would read: YR/MK/MDL: 1991 NISSAN 240SXENG. YR/MK/SIZE: 199(?) NISSAN 3.0 l

Legality is looking more and more plausible. In fact, the more research I do, the more I'm convinced that it will be the least of my problems.

Of course, another advantage (as posted by another person) to waiting awhile before jumping on this swap is the availability of different engines/engine upgrades. A legal KA-T would be great, but then the market for OBDII KAs would thin out instantly. A VG swap will be as possible in one two or three years as it is now... which is to say, not so easy, but possible (so far...)

UPDATE: Mounting hardware may not be as complicated as originally thought. Unstable Hybrids (http://www.UHRP.com) makes mounting hardware for the VG series into the S13 chassis. I'm not sure if they've made anything specifically for the DE, but I know they have stuff on the VG30E. However, this still leaves the intake and turbo manifolds to be fabbed... not cheap.

f s t caz, thanks for the info! I'll have to check that out. Of course, I'd have to live with the criticism of having spent money out the wazzoo to swap one truck engine for another. LOL.

[Onizuka]

Infiniti M30's came with VG30E's up until 92.

Oh yeah and the kit unstable hybrids is developing is for the VG30DE.

[SienSil80]

I'm sorry but I think legality is your biggest issue. As far as smog techs go talk to me, to be sure I whipped out the lawbook and inspection manual given to driveability and smog techs who are going to take the smog test and here are some parts from it directly word for word verbatim as it says concerning engine changes and replacements.

"A replacement engine is defined as follows:

1. A new, rebuilt, remanufactured, or used engine of the same make, number of cylinders, and engine family as the original engine with the original emissions controls reinstalled;or2. An engine which matches a configuration offered by the manufacturer for that year, make and model of vehicle, and the appropriate emissions controls for the installed engine, and chassis components are present and connected."

"An engine change is defined as follows:

An 'engine change' is the isntallation of an engine in an exhaust emission-controlled vehicle that is different from the one which was originally installed in the vehicle and does not qualify as a replacement engine.

Note: Section 3362.1 of Title 16 of the California Code of Regulations states: An ARD(shop) shall not make any motor vehicle engine change which degrades the effectiveness of a vehicle's emission control system. Nor shall said dealer, in the process of rebuilding the original engine or while installing a replacement engine, effect changes that would degrade the effectiveness of the original emissions control system and/or component thereof.

The following guidlines should be followed when changing a vehicle's engine:

-The engine and emission control (for an exhaust-controlled vehicle) must be certified to the year of the vehicle or newer, and to the same or more stringent new vehicle certification standard.

-A federally (EPA) certified engine cannot be used in a vehicle that was originally certified for California

-Do not mix engine and vehicle classifications that degrade the emissions certification standards. For example, a heavy-duty engine cannot be isntalled in a light-duty exhaust controlled chassis even if they are the same displacement. Non-emissions controlled power plants such as an industrial of "off-road use only" engines may not be isntalled in any exhaust controlled vehicle.

-No internal or external engine modifications (cams,pistons, etc.) may be performed unless the parts/systems are ARB approved or are EPA certified for use on the installed engine"

That is verbatim from the BAR Smog Check Inspection Manual revision 6 and the BAR Laws and Regulations book.

Like it says above it has to be from the same engine family which of course you know a VG is not the same as a KA. It also didn't come in the same model. Civics with ref labels can change engines if a civic that year or newer was ever offered with that engine at a speicific trim level. Often they like it because newer engines, although more powerful, fall under more stringent smog guidelines (i.e. EX engine to SI engine).

Also you have to keep in mind that while they are same car class (passenger vehicle), a 300ZXTT has different smog regs that it must meet then a 240SX (240 having more stringent laws due to its lack of force induction and such). Now if you could somehow detune the VG30DETT to meet the same smog regs of a stock KA24, it still wouldn't pass visual at inspection, even if the tech doesn't know the difference between a KA and a VG. The reason why is when the time comes to do the functionality tests, like EGR, he looks up the car in his All data(shop manuals) for component location on that year make and model and will be like...hmmm, strange, diff engine, and will fail and send you to the referee.

Now it does classify as an engine change and not replacement, so if you are able to get the VG30DETT to meet smog regs for a 240, and first take it to the referee, he might just slap on a sticker for you like you said. They do stuff like that for gray market vehicles and kit cars on occasion. Setup an appointment and get the ref to say exactly what he will do, if he says ok, I would get it on paper personally so you can bring it back to him after the swap with the proof he said it was ok and get your label.

[IvoryJ30t]

Glad I dont live out there.

me too.

[masticatingcow]

SienSil80, thanks for the info! Like you said, it will come down to what the referee says and does.

A quick question... the KA is under more stringent smog regulations than the VGTT because the VGTT uses forced induction. If I were to get a N/A VG (hypothetically speaking), wouldn't that solve the problem, or at least make tuning it easier? I still would want to have the turbo(s) on the engine, because while the N/A VG is a nice engine, the REASON for this swap is to have one or two turbos rolling.

I am banking on the idea that this would be an engine change... not a replacement. As smogging goes, I couldn't get it past visual EVER because, well, yeah. Does this mean that every time I go to smog the engine I would have to run it to a referee? Or is that a one-time hassle that would be avoided with a BAR sticker?

[SienSil80]

Well I'm not entirely sure, I havent read that exact law in awhile, but I believe its under more stringent rules due to the turbos. I think they class them by car maker and type of vehicle (passenger car). I could be wrong though, it might be classes by engine family or displacement size.

On an N/A VG30 you aren't going to be able to utilize just one turbo unless you use the Z31 motor, and if you use that motor, its an older year and as the law says, no go if its older. You might be able to get the refree to pass it if you current 240 chassis is before OBDII, but I personally wouldn't get my hopes up. As far as a Z32 VG30 N/A engine I would say yes most definately it would be easier to get it to meet the regs for smog then the TT motor. Unless you have an AWD vehicle and have to be 2 speed idle tested, turbos are a huge factor in smog (since it has to be run on a dynamometer). If you put a turbo car on there and they accelerate up to the proper speed, you can see the HC go up with the spooling turbos.

And believe it or not yes after you go to the refree once, you can pass smog forever and ever at a normal smog station. What the ref does is he will review what you did, check to make sure it's legit and meets what you two talked about earlier, then he will make up a ref label as gray market/kit car vehicle. You then take that sticker and place it over your already existing sticker in your driver side door jam. It will have a bar code for BAR97 smog machines to read and will list the info that this car is legal blah blah blah. From then on the smog stations will just see that label and treat it as any normal car and just pull up the fucntionality tests off the motor type instead of the car type.

Best part...if I cop pulls you over and tries to give you **** about it, having a ref label and sticking their pig noses in it like telling them "BAD cop" is ultra tight. They can't do anything, ref is god as I see it when it comes to smog laws. They're the last say when it comes to everything, kit cars, skylines, whatever it be if it has to do with smog they're the man.

[SienSil80]

To tell you the truth I have a similar plan I putting together but not concerning a 240. I'm buying a RHD FC3S RX-7 rolling chassis from japan. I'm then putting the USDM S5 Turbo motor and US bumpers and lighting and going to try for a ref label. If I can pull it together, it would be ultra cool to own a legal RHD FC.

[mrflip69]

The same car class requirement is so you dont take Truck engines (which have lower emissions standards) and cram them in passenger cars. Call CARB up, I'm very sure that the engine does not have to be the same make. At least, I haven't seen it in writing yet. The turbo shouldn't matter, it wouldn't be fully spooled up during smog testing.

[SienSil80]

yes it does matter, it spools up some during the sampling at the two different speeds and the machine takes those reading into account. It's a fact that turbos cause more emissions and they show during a dyno test. Now if you have a tech who is real light on the throttle and can keep the engine in the speed ranges without varying much you can keep from spooling up the turbos much and have the readings not be affected as much. I don't believe I said for an engine change it had to be the same make, I know for a fact (straight from the book) that for an engine replacement it has to be same make and model.

Calling the CARB would be good too but still talk with the ref since he'd be the one giving you the label in the end. From the horses mouth so to say.

[barrigas14]

I went with a friend to get his car smogged (bi-annually) and off hand I asked the tech if this kind of thing would be legal. He said (and I'm paraphrasing) that it should be legal because the donor VG would be CA certified and under similar smog restrictions. He didn't know if they'd be the same, but that seems to fit the bill under CA's Engine Swap Laws (Classification: Both are passenger vehicle engines.)

Of course, this guy isn't a ref and wouldn't have known for sure, but I'm in the process of finding someone at the DMW who will know definitively.

barrigas14, I think you're under the impression that engine swapping of any kind is illegal in CA. Not true. Look at the BAR sticker that the Civic is sporting... the 92 Civic has a D16 (I believe...) which is 0.2 L smaller than the donor engine, the Acura B18. Not only is it a different make of engine, it's a bigger size! Yet, it's legal.

My hypothetical sticker would read: YR/MK/MDL: 1991 NISSAN 240SXENG. YR/MK/SIZE: 199(?) NISSAN 3.0 l

Legality is looking more and more plausible. In fact, the more research I do, the more I'm convinced that it will be the least of my problems.

Of course, another advantage (as posted by another person) to waiting awhile before jumping on this swap is the availability of different engines/engine upgrades. A legal KA-T would be great, but then the market for OBDII KAs would thin out instantly. A VG swap will be as possible in one two or three years as it is now... which is to say, not so easy, but possible (so far...)

UPDATE: Mounting hardware may not be as complicated as originally thought. Unstable Hybrids (http://www.UHRP.com) makes mounting hardware for the VG series into the S13 chassis. I'm not sure if they've made anything specifically for the DE, but I know they have stuff on the VG30E. However, this still leaves the intake and turbo manifolds to be fabbed... not cheap.

f s t caz, thanks for the info! I'll have to check that out. Of course, I'd have to live with the criticism of having spent money out the wazzoo to swap one truck engine for another. LOL.

huh? just saying that the 300zx motor is a waste of money. giving an opinion about that swap. could care less if legal or not. also i think that there is something about the Honda seris engines that make them legal. can't exactly remember where i read it but it is the fact that since most of their engines run very low emissions and that most the engines are here in the US...unlike the SR20det or RB...then you can get away with the swap...as long as all the smog stuff is there....again i am not positive where i heard this information.

[masticatingcow]

Okay, sorry for taking so long to post this stuff. I've done some research and talked to a couple key people that may change the direction this project moves in.

First of all, the VQ35DE engine is not realistically attainable now. perhaps in a couple years that might change, but for the time being, the VG is a better canidate.

While the VG is a difficult engine to work with, it's hard to beat for torque and stock power. Truth be told, the stock VG would be a better swap than a stock SR. Of course, once you get into the modding game, that changes based on one's investments, but you get the picture.

Secondly, and this may very well be news to A LOT of NICO members, the 240sx's KA24DE is NOT classified as a truck engine. The BLOCK is identical to the KA found in the Frontiers etc, but the HEAD is different. I guess this is enough to justify different classifications. (Although it WOULD make passing emissions a bit easier!)

Next, as long as I operate under the idea that the VG is an engine CHANGE, the only obsticle in my way is the sniffer. The VG must pass KA smog standards. (I have yet to find said standards, if anyone can help with that, I'd appreciate it.) The referee I spoke with (breifly on the phone, admittedly) explained that "as long as the car passes emissions as well or better than the receiving chassis's OEM engine, it can be BAR approved." He suggested that I make SURE all the VG30DETT's OEM emissions stuff was attached an functioning: the BAR sticker is dependant on that.

The Honda engines are easily swapped because they are ULEV (Ultra Low Emission Vehicle) engines. That makes CARB happy.

Here are preliminary estimates of what it will cost:

LOL, A LOT! (Anywhere from 9K to 15K, depending on hook-ups and quality of work. YIKES!)

That said, if anyone is interested in sponsoring the project, I'm all ears! How easy would it be to pitch? A LEGAL engine swap that has the potential to crush just about EVERYTHING? Come on guys, help me out! LOL. No, really. Help me.

Legality hasn't been the biggest problem so far. In fact, I've had more luck in that area than others. The sheer cost of the project is the real problem. That and finding a shop willing to do the swap.

When I look at what people are paying to turbo the KA or swap the SR, CA, or RB, the VG doesn't SEEM to be much worse. The danger in that thinking, of course, is that it will be. This isn't a cancellation of the project, but certainly a deterrent.

[[s3]]

You won't crush anything without a lot of $.

The stock turbos on the VG will run out of breath at around 16-18 PSi. Stock injectors are 370cc, not very adequate for high HP.

555cc Nismo Injectors are around $800 for the setUpgraded turbos, the least being JWT Sport 500s run about $1800

Money wise, this would be considered the biggest waste of $ swap that I can imagine.

Bragging rights of having a VG in a 240, you can be the first or second.

9K to 15K will actually BUY a decently modded stage 3 TT Z, pushing about 350-400HP

[masticatingcow]

You won't crush anything without a lot of $.

So it can be said for anything. Like I've said, the amount of money that would go into a project like this is incredible. Appropriately, it is DEFINATELY becoming the biggest problem so far.

You're right. It probably is the biggest waste of money conceiveable. Point taken.

Don't get me wrong, I've considered and even made offers on more powerful cars. Not least among them a 93 300ZXTT and an 89 Supra Turbo. I'm just trying to think outside the box a bit. How many mod concepts are shut down without being explored just because the money isn't there or doesn't seem well-placed?

You can't deny that the VG is a better platform to build on for sheer power than the KA or SR. If this project ends up in the proverbial toilet, I'd look to an RB swap or a HUGE buildup on a KA.

LOL, how sad is it that the MOST legal swap is the least attainable?

[[s3]]

The VG being as old a motor as it is, is being brought back to life due to a lot of good aftermarket support.

Z1 motorsports has been building VG engines in the 800HP range and this is just the beginning.

A few years back, Zs were never in the high HP range like Supras etc, now thats a whole different story. We're begginning to see a lot of Zs pushing 600-800HP. The other problem is getting all that power to the ground.

I like the way you think, trying to build on a platform that has not been explored. Kudos to you if you actually get this thing on the ground and running.