upper links

[Bayarea Q]

I have a poor understanding of suspension components. Do all cars have these? Are they part of the rear suspension as well? What do they do exactly? Is there another term for upper links? My local shop let me sit down and play with their computer....I went to 95Q suspension info and found tons of parts and the related book times. But could find no upperlinks mentioned, nor could I identify it by the illustrations.

I have a 95Q, 86K....and I feel like I need new suspension parts. Not knowing what I was doing I replaced the front struts with OEM. Although it was a major improvement, there is still something wrong. Just seems a little loose, and i get that popping noise I've read about here, when backing up, stopping, or going from drive to reverse without being very smooooth about it. I'm wondering if anyone can confirm that what I describe is actually the upper links? I would hate to spend more money replacing parts, and not actually fix the problem.

I would also like to comment that the new feeling I got from my new OEM front strut job was great, but it went away fast! Less than 5-8K. Is that normal? Or could my bad upperlinks make the struts wear faster?

Sorry for all the questions.

Robert

[DAEDALUS]

Not all cars have them; suspensions vary quite a bit in terms of complexity and effectiveness. Bad links usually cause squeaking when going over bumps. The looseness and popping could be several things, but I would check your sway bar and steering rack bushings first. The rear suspension has links too, but in a diffferent geometry. Bad links won't make your struts wear faster as far as I know, but it will wear your tires faster.

[Bayarea Q]

Thanks Daedalus,

I don't really have any sqeaking.....I can feel something in the brake pedal when I back out of a parking spot. It happens right when I start to turn (while in reverse backing out) I feel a pop & slight depression in the brake pedal. I hope that discription made since? It's also audible outside the car, a friend commented to me, "What is all that popping?" If I try to go slow and be careful it won't happen, but normally it will. Has anyone ever had anything like that? I guess it could be any of the rubber componets Q45 tech says have to be replaced. He also says you have to replace the tension bar, or bars? What do they do? What characteristics do bad ones have?

Thanks again for all the info guys,

Robert

[DAEDALUS]

Sounds pretty dangerous. Don't drive it till you figure it out. Aside from the immediate danger that might be present, don't forget that everything is designed to work within its system. If something goes bad, then everything else in the system will wear faster or get damaged. In the context of normal wear, what you're describing is downright violent! If you can get under there I would think there's a pretty good chance you will see the problem if you look around for a few minutes and push and tug on the suspension. Always make sure the car is properly seated on good stands; otherwise the pushing and tugging could be the end of you. The tension rods are one of the links in the front suspension...they're angled, so they take front to back as well as side to side loads. I should have thought of them too. Go ahead and take a peek. Here's a pic of a friends cracked tension rod bushing:http://home.socal.rr.com/robverna/zcarbush.jpgThis is pretty bad. If yours are worse than this...

[Bayarea Q]

I think I may have made it seem worse than it really is.....I'm pretty sure it was that way when I bought it. And I've put 40K on it. My mechanic and I have been under the car and can see nothing wrong suspension wise. I guess it's just all the old rubber, links, and tension rod. I'm thinking of replacing it all.

Thanks for the pic.... is that from a Q? None of my rubber in front looks cracked like that. I guess they could be, just where I can't see.

I'm wondering if I should get all urethane bushings, how fast do they wear out? Are they more expensive? I've read all the posts here about the rubber ones not lasting long, and not really being able to maxamise the full potential of the sway bars. Thanks again!

[911/Q45]

Are you sure you're not hearing and feeling the ABS self test that happens when you first back out of parking? Does it happen on subsequent reverses, or just the first one?

[DAEDALUS]

I think what scared me was the pop and brake pedal movement. The pic is from my friend's 300ZX, but the suspension is all but identical to the Q's, at least in geometry. Polyurethane bushings do last longer, but you might have trouble finding the right ones without a lot of work. Not much more expensive than OEM, possibly cheaper. They are MUCH harder than rubber.

[Q45tech]

Upper links are just a single piece trying to do the work of a dual mounting point upper A arm [more common type]. Due to space considerations and the desire for more camber gain [than an a A arm can produce] the twisted feed angled upper link design was used...........unfortunately this design transmits about three times the stress on the rubber isolators of the upper links...why they wear out in 30k vs 100k for dual a arm types.

The price you pay for having a suspension designed to provide about 10% better handling via severe camber and tire control, unfortunately most tires give up and die when subjected to rigid control..........they were not built to handle the severe stress a Q can place on them. {Why the factory used tires whose tread only lasted 16,000 miles at best]

When the upper links become worn the top/ bottom of tires quiver in and out as they rotate....this extra stress destroys them internally quickly not to mention bearings and kingpins.This shows up on the outside of the tire as a heel toe feathering of the tread blocks on the outside edges and increased noise/out of round condition] from the tires internal structure changes [cords snapping belts shifting].

The upper links and tension rods are easy and quick to change compared to the other suspension items and the miniscule cost of changing items every 30k was deemed necessary to achieve a superior handling design back in 1990........technology, new materials, and engineering allowed changes in 2002 which delivered the same results with less stress [hopefully].

Don't think Lexus is immune as though the items last longer the A arm costs are triple so it washes out over the long run.......unfortunately Q owners get to pay the labor 3 times......but what is an extra 6 hours [$500] compared to 10% better handling.

The new G35 finatics will find this out soon....tires/wheels suspension parts, brakes.....when you raise the bar the owner pays dearly! And the second hand owner gets the real brunt of replacements,

[Bayarea Q]

911,

Your post about the ABS got me thinking....maybe that is what I'm feeling. On top of the worn out suspension parts.

I have never really done subsequent reverses so I don't know if it does it or not. I will check today. I am guessing that it shouldn't do it again? Right?

Q45 Tech,

I have about 12K on my tires Yoko 225/60/15 A550V 1521 / 380 tread wear. They have been rotated twice every 5k.....first rotation I had 11/32 on each tire all around. Second time (10K) I'm at 8/32 all around. Would a car with worn upperlinks show bad tire wear at this point? Probably varies with cars / conditions.....Also, what is this part called in the shop computer manual? My shop & I could not identify anything in the computer. Are there links in the rear suspension as well?

Thanks for all your info!Robert

[DAEDALUS]

I just have to ask...what is wrong with your shop? Either they or their manual are lacking something that should be included with the $70/hr you pay them.http://home.socal.rr.com/robverna/fs.gifLook in the upper right quadrant of the pic. Upper link is labeled. This is from a 300zx suspension, but it is almost identical.

[Bayarea Q]

Thanks for that link Daedalus! I know it's weird but I sat down with their computer software and could not find the upper link. It had everything else I've heard of...brackets & bushings. Just no links or tension rods. That's why I'm asking so many stupid questions. Thanks, all of you for taking the time to answer. I thought that was the upper link, but just was not sure.My tech said they would be very easy to change. I'm curious have any of you guys changed them your selves? What is the dificulty level?

[Bayarea Q]

Daedalus,

In the diagram of the 300z suspension I have finally seen what the tension rod looks like and where it is. It looks like a solid piece of metal. Is that correct? Is the whole part replaced? Are there any bushings? If not I'm curious why or how the tension rod wears out? Maybe it gets bent under stress? I'm also trying to understand what benefit I will feel by replacing?

Thanks again,Robert

[Q45tech]

The short ends [of the rectangle] contain hard rubber isolated center pipe for the mounting bolt. This rubber gets constantly twisted trying to make the the third link and thus the spindle follow a desired path [camber curve] as the wheel moves up and down.

The center pipe [bolt channel] and thus the mounting bolt should be rigid in all directions.....wear occurs when the bushings are less rigid in one direction allowing the junction [where the link bolts to the third member to move [wiggle losely] this makes clunking noise and allows the tire to wiggle up and down in and out as it rotates............just like kingpin wear it allows tire feathering to occur!

[DAEDALUS]

The link really is easy to change out. 2 bolts, hopefully you have the manual so you can get the torque values. I don't recall if this applies to the upper links, but I know that a lot of suspension components *should* be torqued with the strut under compression from the weight on that corner. That is, you don't want the wheel hanging by the strut when you tighten the nuts.For the tension rod, you can replace the entire rod or just the bushing. The bushing is rubber, as seen in the first pic I posted (the rubber is what's cracking). What you replace will depend on the what's cheapest overall, so ask you shop how much the labor alone will cost for each, and then find out how much the parts cost.

[Bayarea Q]

Daedalus & Q45 Tech,

Thanks again for all the help.

I'm thinking that I'm going to replace both upper links, both tension rods (maybe to save $ just the rubber support. Q45 Tech any comments?) Than as far as front end bushings.....sway bar bushings, and steering rack bushings. Are there any other bushings are componenets that need to be changed? I'm trying to return my suspension to "As new"

[DAEDALUS]

There are some rubber components in all the shocks that improve the ride if you replace them. A couple of bushings and the spring hat is what I recall. Dust seal too, if its broken. I replaced all rubber at the same time as the struts, so I can't say how much benefit came from which component, but I can say that overall there was a BIG improvement in feel (my suspension was VERY worn). Far more responsive, yet with a measured absorption of larger bumps and dips.

[Bayarea Q]

These rubber compenents in the shocks you speak about....are part of the new strut assembly right? In other words if I already replaced my front struts (10K ago) there is no need to replace these rubber parts right?

[DAEDALUS]

They probably weren't replaced unless they show up on the invoice or work order as separate parts. OEM is probably the only source for the rubber, and they're not going to arrive with the strut. I'll never know why dinky tire shops don't replace them, or why they don't even ask you if you want them replaced. Seems like a good way to make a little more margin on at least the parts. Obviously they just want to get you in and out without having to ask you to come back when the parts arrive. Look at the exploded diagram again and you'll see things called "bushing", "bumper", and "upper rubber seat". A little different on your Q, but very similar to what's shown for the Z. At your mileage, I won't say that you *need* to replace them, but I suspect you would feel a difference if you did. That said, I do seriously wonder how long the ride would stay as nice. These components are rubber--they're soft and they're being constantly compressed by 1/4 or so of the car's weight. It may not take long before they lose some of their springiness. My shocks have about 5000mi on them, and to me the ride feels pretty close to what they did on day 1, but not quite.

[DAEDALUS]

Oops, sorry. Try this link for another pic with the shock exploded:

http://home.socal.rr.com/robverna/fs2.gif

[Q45tech]

AS NEW will require a lot more replacement items as the lower link traverse arm has rubber bushings and the tierod ends, kingpin all wear but the items you mention are a good start then you look for any wheel movement [play that shouldn't be there].

[Bayarea Q]

Daedalus,

That second link is great! You can really see everything. I had no idea about all these rubber components. How much extra was it to replace these rubber parts in the struts? I noticed the struts had bushings as well? Is this part of what your talking about? By the way do you have a Q or a Z? Just cruious.....

[Bayarea Q]

Q45 Tech,

I would really appreciate your opinion.....I'm starting to think I'm getting in over my head. From a cost affective standpoint what do you feel should be replaced on my 95Q with 86K mostly highway driven. I'm looking to get as close to as new without killing my savings. No matter what, I'm changing the upper links. As far as the tie rods, do I need to replace the metal part or can the bushings just be changed? Or is it not very cost affective labor wise to just do the bushings? Now I think all I'm left with are all the other bushings. From your posts I realize how important the sway bar busgings are so I want to replace them. At my year and mileage how important / nessecity, or measurable gain / feeling would I notice by replacing steering rack bushings, Lower link bushings, and kingpins. All by the way I have very low understanding of. Would it be possible to give me a ball park estimate of the labor charges involved in replacing these parts. Thank you very much for your patience. I don't know what I would do without all your guys help!! Actually I do....lots of wasted time, money, and frustration.

[DAEDALUS]

I am very happy to have a Q. I only have the 300zx references because I recently did some planning for work on a friend's Z (just waiting for parts). Yes, the bushings are what I'm talking about. I might be able to get you some part numbers if I can find some old invoices, but the guys at Scottsdale could probably tell you what you need too. They aren't too expensive, I think the spring hats are maybe $15 each or so, and the bushings even cheaper. Also consider replacing the mounting spacers that go between the frame and struts. As far as labor, book rates are an hour for each front strut, and that shouldn't change regardless of what part of the shock you have replaced.

[Bayarea Q]

I'm wondering if the labor won't be quite as bad as I think....due to the fact that there may be overlapping labor? What I'm trying to say is will I save any money on labor doing all these bushings at once? Another words I'm not going to have to pay book time for each part all added up right? Do you know how much your friend with the Z paid for labor?

[Bayarea Q]

Daed,

What year Q do you have? It must ride / handle great after all those new parts you put on. How much did the whole front end cost? Sorry for all the questions, I'm just trying to get a ball park figure so I don't pay to much......

[DAEDALUS]

There isn't a lot of overlap, but there's a little. Filling out the paperwork, getting the car on the lift, and removing the wheels. No direct overlap between rebuilding the shocks and replacing the tension rod or sway bar bushings that I can think of. There is enough overlap to justify knocking off a little IMO, but I'm guessing you will have to convince them of it. The labor rate is fixed, so always negotiate in book time. Ask them the book time for each thing you want done, then ask them how much time they'll take off to do all at once. Be ready to rattle off those three taskes and any others you can think of if they're less than eager to work with you. If this is a shop you will be bringing your car to a lot, it never hurts to grease the rails. $20 to the right people (service writer and tech) on a couple visits, and they WILL remember you.My friend is getting free labor in exchange for a nice rolling tool cabinet he surplussed from work, but it would otherwise have cost about $150 in labor for 2 front shocks (2 hrs x $75/hr). Parts are under $100 for the rubber, plus $160 for the struts. That's roughly what I paid for my '90 Q, then add about $100 per upper link. I don't remember what the tension rods cost, maybe $75 each. Sway bar bushings are maybe $5 each. I haven't yet looked into the other things, like wheel bearings ($200+ each!), kingpins and bearings, balljoints, etc. Still a couple more items above them on my todo list.

[Bayarea Q]

How many miles on your 90Q?Do you feel Scottsdale is the best place (cheapest) to buy all the parts from? By the way, is Scottsdale an Infiniti dealership in AZ?I'm also wondering how much of a risk I'm taking by supplying my own parts, as the installer won't warranty the parts? If I were to buy a defective part from them would I be screwed?

Thanks again for all your help!Robert

[DAEDALUS]

I rolled over 215k on Christmas day. Scottsdale isn't the only source, but the guys are nice. They're a dealership. Lisle and Midway also have good prices. Never tried them personally. No reason other than that I'm happy with Scottsdale. They really seem to go out of their way to listen to the buyers, to put the guide job parts and plenum hoses into kits, and package other common items for additional savings. My only gripe is that their website is clumsy (sorry Joe). It needs a bit of customization of the site engine they use.I'm far less concerned about a defective part than I am about defective labor. At least a defective part would likely be obvious before installation, and I'm sure they'd replace it (not sure about electronic items). Defective labor you may not discover until you're stranded somewhere. For parts like these I think the savings are worth it. A transmission would be a bigger risk analysis.

[Bayarea Q]

I'm going to check out their website and give them a call. Just need to decide exactly what I want replaced. Do you know if they packages deals on suspension parts? I'm going to look but don't want to miss out on any hidden deals to NICO members.My next project is the rear suspension. Do you happen to know if it's as complecated as the front? I'm hoping there are less parts/bushings that need to be replaced.

[Bayarea Q]

Wow! 215K.....are you the origional owner? If not how many miles were on it when you got it? I would love to see 200K.I'm sure you have done great maintanance. Just curious is your Q still runs the same? Or burn any oil?I just noticed your in CA. as well. What area? I'm up in the north bay.