OK, bige240 and I are looking to put together an article that consolidates all of the available options we have to tune a boosted 240. What I mean exactly is a writeup that goes over everything, I mean everything. From install to the options you come accross during the tuning process. What we need to know is what everyone wants to see. What will help everyone the most. One of the main things we'd like to address are the comparisons between the various options. Like MegaSquirt vs SAFII vs Emanage. To do a fair non biased write up, we need idea's as far as what points to compare. Like cost for instance...The FMU has it all over everything, but loses as far as tuneability goes. So obviously there's two right there. Price, tuneability, maybe ease of install...I'd like alot of options to compare.
The end goal being a good non biased comparison while getting all the info that each option has available all put together in the same place. It will be the only thread of its kind as far as I know. As per usual, Nico will pave the way...
So please take a few minutes and give us your suggestions. Like I've said before, Nico and KAT is only what we make it.
We might even make one thread dedicated to posting info for comparisons and actual proven theory etc. That way we can put everything together and eventually have an article that we can all say we took part in building. Afterall, this is "OUR" house
WD
(UPDATED) All 240 Tuning Options Here!!!
Re: All 240 Tuning Options Here!!! (WDRacing)
I came from honda-tech and used uberdata, crome, and the like w/ plx m-250 wideband to tune my boosted integra. I'm moving into RWD here and getting a 240sx. I need to get acquainted with the type of ECU chipping in nissan motors. I've done some reading in http://www.eccs.hybridka.com/ but still need help.
Basically I'm most interested in the cheapest alternative, greatest tunability, and lots of DIY which is chipping ECU with EPROMS and possibly using rom-emulators, with widebands to tune by myself.
Also, I'm still wondering whether we can do datalogging through the ECU (we can do it in Honda ECU easily)
Basically I'm most interested in the cheapest alternative, greatest tunability, and lots of DIY which is chipping ECU with EPROMS and possibly using rom-emulators, with widebands to tune by myself.
Also, I'm still wondering whether we can do datalogging through the ECU (we can do it in Honda ECU easily)
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Florida240sx
- Posts: 11114
- Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 7:17 am
- Car: 1993 Nissan 240SX Hatch 5spd
2012 Nissan Altima S coupe 2.5 - Location: DeLand FL
For my set-up I used SAFC II and A wideband.Easy to Install. Cost same price as emanage. But was cakewalk to tune, and no need for a laptop to tune it. Downside is no timing control.Solution: BTM cheap and good timing control unitEnded up getting and ECU tunePro: Timing controlled and able to drive out the boxCons: Pretty steep price, tune is conservative.
Here's what I can muster up for a contribution to this subject:
I began with nothing but SAFC2.
Pros:
Very cheap.User friendly.Can compensate for injectors up to approx. 550cc/min.Can compensate for different MAF configurations.Can somewhat compensate for open atmosphere BOV problems (limited compensation).Has high and low throttle adjustability for a more finite overall fuel calibration.
Cons:
No timing control.Larger injectors negatively impact the ECU timing more than smaller injectors. Open atmosphere BOV compensation is quite limited and can easily cause issues with cold start idle if adjusted the slightest bit too far.Has limited fuel control (no adjustments for throttle tip-in, injector latency or temperature compensation).
One of the key features, which is commonly overlooked during the tuning process, is the peak/hold function.
NOTE: Using a wideband O2 sensor is a must, whether street or dyno tuning.
When I tuned my SAFC2, I began with the part throttle settings (low throttle) and adjusted to get good driveability and efficiency in the low load range of the rpm band.
After calibrating the low throttle map, I movedo n to the high throttle map, which is where the peak/hold function comes into play.
I began doing a pull from around 2000rpm, while monitoring the O2 readings. As soon as the O2 readings got outside my personal parameters of safe operation, I immediately lifted the throttle and viewed the SAFC2 screen.
The peak/hold function showed me at what throttle input and rpm I lifted the throttle, since it was the peak input received before lifting. Having the data allowed me to know exactly which rpm range to adjust.
I repeated this process over and over until the entire high load range was tuned for a good AFR across the board.
Consequently, the car had good power and excellent "normal driving" fuel efficiency. On long interstate drives, I was able to achieve around 30mpg and still be able to run 10psi on a T3/T04E without suffering detonation.
I'll post more later on my current tuning system.
I began with nothing but SAFC2.
Pros:
Very cheap.User friendly.Can compensate for injectors up to approx. 550cc/min.Can compensate for different MAF configurations.Can somewhat compensate for open atmosphere BOV problems (limited compensation).Has high and low throttle adjustability for a more finite overall fuel calibration.
Cons:
No timing control.Larger injectors negatively impact the ECU timing more than smaller injectors. Open atmosphere BOV compensation is quite limited and can easily cause issues with cold start idle if adjusted the slightest bit too far.Has limited fuel control (no adjustments for throttle tip-in, injector latency or temperature compensation).
One of the key features, which is commonly overlooked during the tuning process, is the peak/hold function.
NOTE: Using a wideband O2 sensor is a must, whether street or dyno tuning.
When I tuned my SAFC2, I began with the part throttle settings (low throttle) and adjusted to get good driveability and efficiency in the low load range of the rpm band.
After calibrating the low throttle map, I movedo n to the high throttle map, which is where the peak/hold function comes into play.
I began doing a pull from around 2000rpm, while monitoring the O2 readings. As soon as the O2 readings got outside my personal parameters of safe operation, I immediately lifted the throttle and viewed the SAFC2 screen.
The peak/hold function showed me at what throttle input and rpm I lifted the throttle, since it was the peak input received before lifting. Having the data allowed me to know exactly which rpm range to adjust.
I repeated this process over and over until the entire high load range was tuned for a good AFR across the board.
Consequently, the car had good power and excellent "normal driving" fuel efficiency. On long interstate drives, I was able to achieve around 30mpg and still be able to run 10psi on a T3/T04E without suffering detonation.
I'll post more later on my current tuning system.
My current setup:
Dual chip daughterboard with on-board switching and multiple map storage. This is for the OBD I DOHC model only.
Pros:
Fully adjustable in terms of total engine management (timing, fueling, cold-start enrichment, throttle tip-in, etc.).Easily installed in the factory ECU.No need for any piggyback system.
Cons:
Highly involved and not for the novice tuner.Currently, no map-trace function available.HybridKA is VERY busy and somewhat out of pocket these days (though that will settle down probably about Spring of this coming year).Not certain if these boards are ready for release to the public yet.Requires dual chips with identical programming, making it expensive to tune on the fly via emulator (requires twin emulators @ over $200 each).NOTE: These can be tuned without the emulators, but you'll have to try a tune, check the data, reconfigure, burn to chips, try again.
This board came from hybridKA as a beta-testing venture. Basically, he had only a handful of boards and was saving them for unique projects. Mine just happened to pique his interest, so I got to purchase a board from him.
Here's how it works.
The board can store a total of four individual map sets. One set is a complete tune, having cold start function, injector parameters, VQ parameters, fueling and timing tables, rev limit, etc. So, the board holds four of these.
The board itself hase two dip switches. Depending on the dip switch settings, the associated map will be used.
Example:
Switch 1 "ON", switch 2 "OFF" = Map 1.Switch 1 "OFF", switch 2 "OFF" = Map 2.Switch 1 "ON", switch 2 "ON" = Map 3.Switch 1 "OFF", switch 2 "ON" = Map 4.
Now, either of the two switches can be setup to operate via remote mount switch. By operating one of the switches remotely, I can toggle between two maps.
Currently, I have the remote switch attached to the clutch pedal assembly so that when the clutch is depressed more than about 10-12mm, the switch circuit is closed and an alternate map is activated. When the clutch pedal is released, the switch circuit goes open again, reverting back to the original map.
The two maps are set up as follows:
Map 1 (pedal released):
Base tune, rev limit set to 6850rpm
Map 2 (pedal depressed):
Fuel enrichment, timing retarded heavily, rev limit set to 4000rpm.
The purpose of the two maps is two fold.
1. I have a 2-step launch control. I can hold in the clutch, push the accelerator all the way down and the engine will bounce around 4000rpm, and build a small amount of boost sitting still.
2. I have a flat-shift feature. I don't have to lift the accelerator between gears because of the lower limit. This helps reduce turbo lag significantly between gears.
The remaining two slots can be used for other options, such as a race-gas map, valet map (limit revs to 3000rpm so they can't boost), or even an anti-theft map (set values so that the car CAN NOT run, even if hotwired).
Dual chip daughterboard with on-board switching and multiple map storage. This is for the OBD I DOHC model only.
Pros:
Fully adjustable in terms of total engine management (timing, fueling, cold-start enrichment, throttle tip-in, etc.).Easily installed in the factory ECU.No need for any piggyback system.
Cons:
Highly involved and not for the novice tuner.Currently, no map-trace function available.HybridKA is VERY busy and somewhat out of pocket these days (though that will settle down probably about Spring of this coming year).Not certain if these boards are ready for release to the public yet.Requires dual chips with identical programming, making it expensive to tune on the fly via emulator (requires twin emulators @ over $200 each).NOTE: These can be tuned without the emulators, but you'll have to try a tune, check the data, reconfigure, burn to chips, try again.
This board came from hybridKA as a beta-testing venture. Basically, he had only a handful of boards and was saving them for unique projects. Mine just happened to pique his interest, so I got to purchase a board from him.
Here's how it works.
The board can store a total of four individual map sets. One set is a complete tune, having cold start function, injector parameters, VQ parameters, fueling and timing tables, rev limit, etc. So, the board holds four of these.
The board itself hase two dip switches. Depending on the dip switch settings, the associated map will be used.
Example:
Switch 1 "ON", switch 2 "OFF" = Map 1.Switch 1 "OFF", switch 2 "OFF" = Map 2.Switch 1 "ON", switch 2 "ON" = Map 3.Switch 1 "OFF", switch 2 "ON" = Map 4.
Now, either of the two switches can be setup to operate via remote mount switch. By operating one of the switches remotely, I can toggle between two maps.
Currently, I have the remote switch attached to the clutch pedal assembly so that when the clutch is depressed more than about 10-12mm, the switch circuit is closed and an alternate map is activated. When the clutch pedal is released, the switch circuit goes open again, reverting back to the original map.
The two maps are set up as follows:
Map 1 (pedal released):
Base tune, rev limit set to 6850rpm
Map 2 (pedal depressed):
Fuel enrichment, timing retarded heavily, rev limit set to 4000rpm.
The purpose of the two maps is two fold.
1. I have a 2-step launch control. I can hold in the clutch, push the accelerator all the way down and the engine will bounce around 4000rpm, and build a small amount of boost sitting still.
2. I have a flat-shift feature. I don't have to lift the accelerator between gears because of the lower limit. This helps reduce turbo lag significantly between gears.
The remaining two slots can be used for other options, such as a race-gas map, valet map (limit revs to 3000rpm so they can't boost), or even an anti-theft map (set values so that the car CAN NOT run, even if hotwired).
Re: (WDRacing)
I guess I can put my 2 cents in...
I'm using the megasquirt version 3 board
It has and uses the following
MAP sensor: comes with a 1 bar sensor and can be upgraded to 2 or 3 barprovides overboost control with fuel cut and timing retardfully programmable fuel, ignition, VE tables (12x12)launch controlcan use wideband o2 with Innovate or other o2 controller or narrowbandcan use stock distributor or can upgrade to Ford, Chevy or MSD coil pack/crank sensorcan use any size injectors and any amount of boost up to what the MAP sensor can handlemust use a laptop and can program as many fuel/timing maps as you want.can use relay board for a much, much easier install, just run the wires and screw them in (everything is labeled) or can make a pigtail to go straight to ECUuses batch fuel injection (sprays each bank every up stroke)there is a ton of info on their site not only on installing and tuning the ECU, but also tuning in general.made for boosted enginesTuning in real time (while the engine is on)
A great learning experienceNOT FOR NOVICE TUNERS!You can, but don't have to build your own boardmust make your own custom engine harnesscan use stock sensors EXCEPT the intake air temp. must use GM sensor
cost of ecu board, relayboard, pigtail, coilpacks, wideband o2 and controller costs under $700
I'm using the megasquirt version 3 board
It has and uses the following
MAP sensor: comes with a 1 bar sensor and can be upgraded to 2 or 3 barprovides overboost control with fuel cut and timing retardfully programmable fuel, ignition, VE tables (12x12)launch controlcan use wideband o2 with Innovate or other o2 controller or narrowbandcan use stock distributor or can upgrade to Ford, Chevy or MSD coil pack/crank sensorcan use any size injectors and any amount of boost up to what the MAP sensor can handlemust use a laptop and can program as many fuel/timing maps as you want.can use relay board for a much, much easier install, just run the wires and screw them in (everything is labeled) or can make a pigtail to go straight to ECUuses batch fuel injection (sprays each bank every up stroke)there is a ton of info on their site not only on installing and tuning the ECU, but also tuning in general.made for boosted enginesTuning in real time (while the engine is on)
A great learning experienceNOT FOR NOVICE TUNERS!You can, but don't have to build your own boardmust make your own custom engine harnesscan use stock sensors EXCEPT the intake air temp. must use GM sensor
cost of ecu board, relayboard, pigtail, coilpacks, wideband o2 and controller costs under $700
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Florida240sx
- Posts: 11114
- Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 7:17 am
- Car: 1993 Nissan 240SX Hatch 5spd
2012 Nissan Altima S coupe 2.5 - Location: DeLand FL
Re: (Florida240sx)
If all goes well, I may have one hellova DIY with pictures during my winter break or spring break. Hopefully it won't interfere too much with snowboarding, since snow comes first to me, lol. Sorry guys!
I'd suggest seperating E tuning from DE tuning as they are so completely different. The E has a programable EPROM and the DE can use a daughterboard like BIKIROM.
For those who want more, we could put together sections on E and DE tuning. A lot of the stuff can be gleaned from HybridKA and elsewhere. I think it's a great idea because the afformentioned site is not really a place for the novice. I would be happy to help get things going.
Modified by Edub1 at 10:06 AM 12/16/2006
For those who want more, we could put together sections on E and DE tuning. A lot of the stuff can be gleaned from HybridKA and elsewhere. I think it's a great idea because the afformentioned site is not really a place for the novice. I would be happy to help get things going.
Modified by Edub1 at 10:06 AM 12/16/2006
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Poor_S13_Driver
- Posts: 359
- Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 6:24 am
- Car: S13
Re: (Edub1)
+100 for Single slammer tuning. If i had my way with the world, i would like to see almost a sub category of E tuning. The "low boost" side. and a High if there is a demand. I would love to see the best tuning options for say the 240 HP and under range. This is what a lot of people are going for, and coincidentially these are the people that are always posting""what/how should i tune" so your really killing a lot of birds with one stone here. Like the people using T25/28 and super 60's and such. They just want something reliable.(Granted most people will say use a SAFC and back timing off at the dizzy but is this the best way?) This is just something to be answered along with others) Dosent have to be the most efficient thing in the world, just something safe. I fall into this spectrum. I dont understand anything that has electricity, so you can see i dont know much about tuning, but i should probably read more about, believe me im trying, but its a hard thing for me, and most other people to grasp. IN SHORT i think a E tuning section is much needed. Especially for the sub 240HP goals that most people seem to be gunning for.
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Poor_S13_Driver
- Posts: 359
- Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 6:24 am
- Car: S13
Re: (Poor_S13_Driver)
I agree we should do E and DE motors separately. The early DE's came with eproms also as well as the spot where nissan did the final tuning (I think).and I also think that we should separate EPROM reprogramming and daugter boards from standalone systems. There are so many options separating everything will make the info much easier to sift through PLEASE HELP US GET AS MUCH INFO AS POSSIBLE!!!!
Re: (bige240)
Also, a general section for 1st timers and an advanced section for people who know a little. Nothing will ruin it faster than the same damn "how do I tune..." question asked over and over ad infinitum.
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WDRacing
- Moderator
- Posts: 15983
- Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2002 2:00 am
- Car: 95 240SX, 99 BMW 540i, 01 Chevy Express, 14 Ford Escape
- Location: MFFO
- Contact:
Ok, here's what I'd like to do. I'd like to start by listing all of our options, both E and DE. After the options are listed I'll explain in brief detail how they work and what the uses are.
The next step should be an in depth look at each system. Lets start with the FMU or RRFPR. I want to explain how to install it, how it works, how it can be tuned etc. Then I want to move on to the next option, using a scale of either most commonly used , cheapest or easiest to use, eventually working our way up to the full standalone such as the Tec3 or SDS.
Once we've gone over the systems seperately, we can do a comparison between all of them.
The most important thing here is to get the info out. We can seperate the E and DE in some categories, but they'll remain in the same for the most part.
How does that sound? What I need are articles written for each system, if you don't want to do an article on install, do one on tuning...the point is I need members to do somthing. If we all take part in this...well, we'll have what no other forum has.
I don't care if you beg borrow or steal the info, if its posted on a public forum, then its public information.
Thoughts, Ideas?
WD
The next step should be an in depth look at each system. Lets start with the FMU or RRFPR. I want to explain how to install it, how it works, how it can be tuned etc. Then I want to move on to the next option, using a scale of either most commonly used , cheapest or easiest to use, eventually working our way up to the full standalone such as the Tec3 or SDS.
Once we've gone over the systems seperately, we can do a comparison between all of them.
The most important thing here is to get the info out. We can seperate the E and DE in some categories, but they'll remain in the same for the most part.
How does that sound? What I need are articles written for each system, if you don't want to do an article on install, do one on tuning...the point is I need members to do somthing. If we all take part in this...well, we'll have what no other forum has.
I don't care if you beg borrow or steal the info, if its posted on a public forum, then its public information.
Thoughts, Ideas?
WD
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Poor_S13_Driver
- Posts: 359
- Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 6:24 am
- Car: S13
Excelent. Especially the first paragraph WD. Im assuming your talking about like categories, like RRFPR..then say a category about SAFC tuning... then say a category about other piggybacks like the Emanage etc.... then perhaps tuned ECUs... then finally Standalones. I know that is A LOT of diffrent categories, but im sure some can be explained with others etc. to narrow it together a bit. I wish I could help with contributing information, but this is the area thats complete fog to me. Hench why i am strongly supporting this/ showing my intrest.
ECU tuning for the E and DE are way different.
I'd be happy to do an article on E tuning.
FPR method maybe for low boost, then piggieback, then ECU tuning which is huge. Stand alone might not be a big deal because those with that kind of money can pay to have it done. But what ever. Also, NA tuning which is nothing, Vs turbo.
I'd be happy to do an article on E tuning.
FPR method maybe for low boost, then piggieback, then ECU tuning which is huge. Stand alone might not be a big deal because those with that kind of money can pay to have it done. But what ever. Also, NA tuning which is nothing, Vs turbo.
Re: (Edub1)
Do you divide nissan ECU's by OBD standards? I came from honda tuning world and there we usually divide tuning options based on OBD0, OBD1, and OBD2a/b. For DIY tuning:OBD0 is basically stuck with chipping + turboeditOBD1 has the largest options from uberdata, crome, etc. datalogging can also be done through ECU. Can we do this in nissan ecu's?OBD2 is mostly still under development for DIY chipping and tuning.
what's the equivalent of these in nissans?
what's the equivalent of these in nissans?
Re: (elpiar)
Heh thats kinda funny Nissan is pretty much exactly like that, I guess I'm not surprised though. I wouldn't be surprised if one day down the line we found out Honda was making the ECU's for us LOL.
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WDRacing
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Re: (Edub1)
Yeah bro, that would rock if you typed somthing up. When you're done make it a seperate thread, that way we can all add/edit stuff. I can take all the info and consolidate it into the best article we can make for each topic...
This is going to be a sweet
This is going to be a sweet
Re: All 240 Tuning Options Here!!! (WDRacing)
Bump...This is dying. fast
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martins_240sx
- Posts: 1414
- Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 3:19 pm
- Car: 1990 240sx hatch, 1975 280z, 2005 F150 fx4
Re: (Edub1)
Im trying to build a sohc but havent got far enough to do tuning yet. But I would definetly like some tips or methods to the tuning....
so what your saying about the 550cc and the z32 is you can just bolt them on and your good, or will you still have to do some programing to get to run properly...what are the 550cc good up to.
so what your saying about the 550cc and the z32 is you can just bolt them on and your good, or will you still have to do some programing to get to run properly...what are the 550cc good up to.
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WDRacing
- Moderator
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- Contact:
Re: All 240 Tuning Options Here!!! (bige240)
I'd say dead...I have some new idea's in the works to bring her back to life though. I just need to go at it from a different angle.
There will be all new threads popping up. I'm not doing all the work, that seems to be the problem. We need actual member involvement to make something like this work.
WD
There will be all new threads popping up. I'm not doing all the work, that seems to be the problem. We need actual member involvement to make something like this work.
WD
Re: All 240 Tuning Options Here!!! (WDRacing)
Not dead just sleeping. I'm currently a bit busy but I'm about to do a write up on E tuning. Plus, I just made a huge dicovery in this area that makes things 100% easier.
My write up would be 1000X better if someone would tell me how to capture screen shots of RomEditor.
My write up would be 1000X better if someone would tell me how to capture screen shots of RomEditor.
Re: All 240 Tuning Options Here!!! (Edub1)
I usually just do a printscreen and save it from the clipboard into a file.in case you don't know:shift+prtscn = capture your whole desktop as it is seenalt + prtscn = capture your active windows onlyEdub1 wrote:Not dead just sleeping. I'm currently a bit busy but I'm about to do a write up on E tuning. Plus, I just made a huge dicovery in this area that makes things 100% easier.
My write up would be 1000X better if someone would tell me how to capture screen shots of RomEditor.
Re: All 240 Tuning Options Here!!! (elpiar)
Does nothing. I'll try it on my laptop.