UAW eyeballs Nissan

[Jesda]

http://www.leftlanenews.com/uaw-brings- ... fight.html

The plant opened in 2003, employs about 3,900 and will soon build the next-generation Sentra, adding 600 more jobs. The UAW has been trying to organize workers at Nissan’s Smyrna, Tennessee for a long time, twice calling for a vote and being rejected both times.

“We’ve been saying that worker rights is the civil rights battle of the 21st century,” said Gary Casteel, the UAW’s top official in region.

The UAW is seeing significant drops in its ranks, today standing at about a quarter of the size it did at its peak in 1979.

[IBCoupe]

Wasn't workers rights the civil rights of the 1930s? Does that make the civil rights the workers rights of the 1960s?

[themadscientist]

The workers have spoken UAW, f*** off.

[PapaSmurf2k3]

Yeah we're taking on Frontier, Xterra, and Sentra. Adding a bunch of jobs. There's rumors going around that if the UAW takes hold, Nissan wouldn't hesitate to close the entire plant. I'd probably lose my job if that happened (or at the very least have to re-locate), but I completely support that decision. Sends a clear message to the UAW that Nissan is not to be messed with.
The UAW thinks a meeting with 250 "supporters" is ground breaking. What they don't realize is that that's less than 10% of the work force, and a large portion of the 90% that doesn't show up is very anti UAW.
Nissan is by far the best gig in town.

I still don't understand how this relates to civil rights, at all.

[themadscientist]

It doesn't. They are trying to wrap themselves in the cloak of civil rights to make this look more than what it is, their desire to expand their influence, not to take care of workers. Detroit is a prime example of what we are left with. I'm not blaming the UAW for the whole thing. Certainly the poor decisions of management is to blame as well. Workers should have the opportunity to unionize if they want, but as nala's dates keep telling him "no" means no.

[IBCoupe]

Yeah we're taking on Frontier, Xterra, and Sentra. Adding a bunch of jobs. There's rumors going around that if the UAW takes hold, Nissan wouldn't hesitate to close the entire plant. I'd probably lose my job if that happened (or at the very least have to re-locate), but I completely support that decision. Sends a clear message to the UAW that Nissan is not to be messed with.

That would be a clear violation of federal law. Like, open and shut. Sometimes, there's nuance and a legal rule can be wishy-washy, but not this. That's ridiculous. Form a union or don't form a union, but employers have been enjoying the fear induced by that lie for almost a century now.

I still don't understand how this relates to civil rights, at all.

Organization and collective bargaining is a federally-protected right. You have a right to meet with a union. You have a right o a vote. You have a right to talk about organizing, on company property if you are rightfully there, and on the clock, if you're not expected to be working, like on a permitted coffee break. You have a right to receive literature. Most importantly, you have a right to not be retaliated against for doing any of the above.

I don't really care whether Smyrna organizes, but it strikes me that, if Nissan's so wonderful that employees don't need to have a stronger voice in contract negotiations, it's odd that they'd work in fear of Nissan's retribution.

[PapaSmurf2k3]

Who says they are working in fear?

Plus, GM has been shutting down union plants left and right lately (most recently Shreveport, LA). How are they getting away with it?

[Jesda]

Essentially: Workers have a right to organize and companies have a right to do business elsewhere.

Nissan is required by the NLRA to negotiate in good faith and it cannot discriminate against pro-union employees, bribe people, prohibit pro-union signs, or punish anyone for participating in or organizing a union. The same rules apply to unions. It can, however, shut down the entire operation if negotiations fail.

In the late 80s the UAW tried to unionize Nissan but they were quite easily voted down. Why? It's simple. The quality of life afforded by being a Nissan employee in the south far exceeds the regional norm. Additionally, foreign automakers have a tendency to more rapidly apply advanced management practices that involve employees in quality control and safety. They don't do it out of the kindness of their hearts; they do it to be more competitive. Thus, the UAW has little to offer.

[nissangirl74]

Everything good that the UAW used to do is now provided to workers by federal law. It's time for them to GTFO before they ruin what's left of the manufacturing industry in this country.

[MinisterofDOOM]

I wish the UAW would leave GM the Hell alone. I certainly don't want them getting in the way of yet ANOTHER automaker.

[PapaSmurf2k3]

Yeah, not sure if this makes a difference or not, but the whole property is designated as a foreign trade zone.

[frapjap]

Everything good that the UAW used to do is now provided to workers by federal law. It's time for them to GTFO before they ruin what's left of the manufacturing industry in this country.

x six bajillion.

[IBCoupe]

Who says they are working in fear?

Plus, GM has been shutting down union plants left and right lately (most recently Shreveport, LA). How are they getting away with it?

They're not doing it in retaliation for starting a union. GM has lots of union plants that it hasn't been shutting down, too.

[IBCoupe]

It can, however, shut down the entire operation if negotiations fail.

That's a mite excessive in your simplification, but yes, an employer can cease operations. They're not bound to continue operating forever just because a union's there, but the notion that they'll shut down the minute a union starts up? That's illegal.

[IBCoupe]

Everything good that the UAW used to do is now provided to workers by federal law. It's time for them to GTFO before they ruin what's left of the manufacturing industry in this country.

What's killing the manufacturing in this country has nothing to do with unions, or even wages. You want to bring back American manufacturing? That'd take a ton of stimulus spending, because no single manufacturer is going to take on the task of improving the American infrastructure.

Make an iPhone in the United States and it'll cost something like $1,500 per phone. Make an iPhone in China, but pay Chinese workers an American wage and give them American benefits? It'll cost between $10 and $60 more per phone. Steve Jobs didn't go to China because he could get children to build his products. Steve Jobs went to China because if, at 4 A.M. local time he needed a brand new screw developed for a fix to the iPhone design, and he needed the fix implemented immediately, he could pick up the phone, tell them what he needed, and by lunch the newest iPhones off the line would have the fix installed. And he could do that because the iPhone manufacturer is right next to the circuit-board manufacturer is right next to the screw manufacturer is right next to the smelter, and so on and so forth.

Unions are not killing American manufacturing. What's "killed" American manufacturing is the fact that we already had our industrial revolution. Nobody's interested in building entire sections of cities devoted to industrial manufacturing. Nobody's interested in living near smokestacks if they don't have to. It's about timing. In the 19th and 20th centuries, our manufacturing centers were at the forefront of development, worldwide. Imagine we're a company that's competing: all we have to do is be more efficient than the last guy. And we were. And then, because managing the development of a country is a lot different from managing the development of a company, we became the "last guy." China just needed to be a little bit more efficient than us. Someday, somebody else is going to be a little more efficient than China, and some lady in a bubble tea shop is going to lament the loss of Chinese manufacturing. And you know what China will do? Exactly what we've done: move on. We do advanced manufacturing. We do engineering and design. We do management.

Yes, it creates extra burdens on our society. We have to be more educated. But it also creates benefits: we live much better than the median Chinese citizen.

[MinisterofDOOM]

Unions are not killing American manufacturing.

It's worth noting that being against the UAW does NOT make one universally anti-union. I do not like the UAW, but that doesn't mean I think ALL unions are a problem.

[Jesda]

That's a mite excessive in your simplification, but yes, an employer can cease operations. They're not bound to continue operating forever just because a union's there, but the notion that they'll shut down the minute a union starts up? That's illegal.

Not excessive at all. You'd have to sue them and prove the closure was explicitly due to unionization.

Realistically, they'd find a way to manage costs or wait a few years to open a new plant elsewhere, then phase out the union plant.

[Jesda]

And you know what China will do? Exactly what we've done: move on. We do advanced manufacturing. We do engineering and design. We do management.

Yes, it creates extra burdens on our society. We have to be more educated. But it also creates benefits: we live much better than the median Chinese citizen.

This is why I favor free and open trade, but additionally, shops, foundries, and factories in the US are having difficulty filling slots for manual or skilled labor.

This is a society that now looks down on craftsmanship. Plumbers, electricians, and engineers have jobs. Paper pushers are collecting unemployment.

[themadscientist]

It's nice to know if my office job falls through I still remeber how to spin wrenches and build stuff. I have respect for people who work skilled trades and get dirty. There will always be a place in the workforce for such people.

[nissangirl74]

My hometown is a great example of what could / does happen in small town America. I lived in a town where 80%+ of the income came from manufacturing. A decade ago we built TVs for Philips Magnavox, we built bomb parts for Delfasco, we built parts for Ford at Dohler Jarvis, locks for Ford at Hurd Lock, and lock and handle assemblies for BMW and Mercedes at (a company who's name escapes me at the moment), we made copper blanks for pennies at Ball Zinc, we built lawnmowers at John Deere, industrial coolers at Tonka Cooler, all sorts of injection molded parts for various companies at LMR (where I worked)....the list goes on and on. Today, there are very few plants left, maybe half a dozen. The unemployment rate in this town is over 14% on paper (so the real number is much higher). The Union stifled Phillips/Magnavox to the point they went to Mexico and built a plant in Juarez to take the place of the one in the US. They went from over 3,000 employees at one time to less than 300. When contract negotiations were due, they closed the doors. Many others followed suit. There is story after story that leads to the same ending: high unemployment, not enough educated / skilled labor workers to attract new business, crime/vandalism/petty theft increases, decrease and tax revenue means the town can not be maintained, people become depressed with a sense of hopelessness. When you live in it, you don't notice the demise at much, but when you are away for it for a while and visit sporadically, it's shocking. More and more businesses are closing their doors and fewer and fewer are opening. The town just looks sad. I'm not saying all of this is the fault of the Union but their inflexibility at one plant was the beginning of the end for others. Other plant owners / managers saw what was happening and that made them start looking for different locations to operate their businesses in. It all slid downhill from there.

[AZhitman]

We pounded this topic pretty hard in the politics forum... as I recall, it didn't end well for the UAW-supporters there either:

wtf-does-the-uaw-hope-to-gain-t547636.html

The UAW *NEEDS* Nissan. Nissan doesn't *NEED* the UAW. Simple as that.

[IBCoupe]

Not excessive at all. You'd have to sue them and prove the closure was explicitly due to unionization.

Realistically, they'd find a way to manage costs or wait a few years to open a new plant elsewhere, then phase out the union plant.

Again, I think you're simplifying it. It's not the same as "suing." You (the union) file a complaint with the NLRB. Then there's an investigation and a process that follows.

And even in closing those plants, that's not the end of the story. An employer is required to negotiate with the representative of its employees for what happens to the employees after the plant is closed.

[float_6969]

Everything good that the UAW used to do is now provided to workers by federal law. It's time for them to GTFO before they ruin what's left of the manufacturing industry in this country.

^This

Unions started because there were little to no laws to protect workers. Unions came about to protect the worker. The Federal government finally started to pass laws to protect works, but we still have unions.

[IBCoupe]

This is why I favor free and open trade, but additionally, shops, foundries, and factories in the US are having difficulty filling slots for manual or skilled labor.

This is a society that now looks down on craftsmanship. Plumbers, electricians, and engineers have jobs. Paper pushers are collecting unemployment.

Even forgetting for a second that the recession and unemployment are but blips in our history, I'm not sure that this (which I recognize is a commonly pushed meme) rings true:

In January of 2011, The Wall Street Journal put out a list of unemployment for 2010 by occupation. These were the highest (above 15%), in order of listing on the site:

• Natural resources, construction, and maintenance occupations (16.1%)
  Construction and extraction occupations (20.1%)
  Laborers and freight, stock, and material movers, hand (16.6%)
  Construction laborers (25.0%)
  Carpenters (22.1%)
  Grounds maintenance workers (18.9%)
  Farming, fishing, and forestry occupations (16.3%)
  Miscellaneous assemblers and fabricators (20.3%)
  Miscellaneous agricultural workers (17.1%)
  Electricians (19.0%)
  Painters, construction and maintenance (16.8%)
  Pipelayers, plumbers, pipefitters, and steamfitters (18.0%)
  Industrial truck and tractor operators (15.5%)
  Welding, soldering, and brazing workers (16.7%)
  Packers and packagers, hand (20.4%)
  Combined food preparation and serving workers, including fast food (17.9%)
  Packaging and filling machine operators and tenders (17.9%)
  Dishwashers (19.2%)
  Roofers (27.1%)
  Interviewers, except eligibility and loan [i.e., paralegals] (23.4%)
  Carpet, floor, and tile installers and finishers (17.2%)

I could keep going, but that was only the first three pages, and I think the trend is clear. It also makes perfect sense when the Bureau of Labor Statistics released this:

[Jesda]

The economics are obvious.

Increasing the cost of labor by adding an intermediary reduces the employer's profit margin as well as the worker's take-home pay (dues payments). There's a level of tolerance that Nissan, Daimler, VW, or any other manufacturer in the south will endure before choosing to open manufacturing plants elsewhere. The UAW's intent is to earn a piece of that "tolerance level" by selling its services to workers. The problem is, especially in the south, there's little the UAW can contribute. Ford, GM, and Chrysler have been closing UAW/CAW plants over the last few decades while transplants have opened non-union facilities at lower costs.

GM is in a bind with its Opel subsidiary in Germany. Labor costs are exceedingly high while European auto sales (for the entire industry) have declined year after year. Closing plants will require costly buyouts and leaving them open will continue to bleed the company. As a result, GM is left between a rock and a hard place, forced to endure ongoing losses.

The same happened in North America near the turn of the century -- unwanted cars continued to be produced and then sold with heavy incentives instead of closing facilities (at a high cost) to allow production to match demand. Incentive pricing and fleet dumping (to sustain volume) placed downward pressure on resale value and drove away retail customers.

We know how all of that turned out in 2009; bankruptcy forced more reasonable labor contracts. GM and Chrysler's new-hires start at a much lower wage (comparable to southern transplants) with a smaller benefits package.

Again, I think you're simplifying it. It's not the same as "suing." You (the union) file a complaint with the NLRB. Then there's an investigation and a process that follows.

And even in closing those plants, that's not the end of the story. An employer is required to negotiate with the representative of its employees for what happens to the employees after the plant is closed.

Yes yes, procedural semantics.

[IBCoupe]

The Union stifled Phillips/Magnavox to the point they went to Mexico and built a plant in Juarez to take the place of the one in the US. They went from over 3,000 employees at one time to less than 300. When contract negotiations were due, they closed the doors. Many others followed suit.

I'm asking this not rhetorically: do you know what they pay their workers in Mexico? Do you know what they pay for rent, electricity, etc. in Mexico? Can you say for sure that, absent the union, those jobs would still be there?

Manufacturing has shifted to other parts of the world. People need a scapegoat, and they pick unions. I'm not saying you are doing that, Bex, as you have explicitly disavowed any such intent, but the American manufacturing machine, where you could get a high school diploma and go work at a factory and retire in comfort has ended, and it has nothing to do with unions and everything to do with worldwide competition.

[Jesda]

Even forgetting for a second that the recession and unemployment are but blips in our history, I'm not sure that this (which I recognize is a commonly pushed meme) rings true:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/2 ... 51576.html

http://money.cnn.com/2012/03/14/smallbu ... /index.htm

http://www.jsonline.com/business/102677514.html

Many express disbelief that such a disconnect exists, Prising said. "Some go ballistic and say you are crazy when you say there's a skills shortage," he said.

Employers throughout Wisconsin and the nation's industrial heartland feel the gap acutely. In Manpower's 2010 poll, the U.S. jobs that were most in demand were skilled trades - electricians, welders, mechanics, boilermakers and other skills that often require a at least two years of technical college. In 2009, the No. 1 in-demand occupation in the U.S. was engineers, which fell to No. 8 this year.

"We continue to be very disappointed and frustrated at Bucyrus in trying to fill almost 150 highly paid vacancies with skilled labor," Sullivan said.

Milwaukee has launched several innovative apprenticeship training programs in recent years tied directly to the needs of Bucyrus and other local industry.

"Notwithstanding all our best efforts in attempting to fix the system with recent improvements in workforce development, the pipeline is broken," Sullivan said. "The fact that virtually all (kindergarten through 12th grade) education in southeastern Wisconsin is based solely on a college prep curriculum, with no exposure to industrial arts, means we are not feeding the market with the right skill sets."

[Jesda]

I'm asking this not rhetorically: do you know what they pay their workers in Mexico? Do you know what they pay for rent, electricity, etc. in Mexico? Can you say for sure that, absent the union, those jobs would still be there?

Manufacturing has shifted to other parts of the world. People need a scapegoat, and they pick unions. I'm not saying you are doing that, Bex, as you have explicitly disavowed any such intent, but the American manufacturing machine, where you could get a high school diploma and go work at a factory and retire in comfort has ended, and it has nothing to do with unions and everything to do with worldwide competition.

Manufacturing, especially in the US, often requires training and education at a trade school, and trade schools do look at academic histories for enrollment. Education beyond high school isn't limited to enrollment at a community college or traditional 4-year institution. Education includes skilled trades.

The days of stumbling out of high school with a 2.0 and expecting $20/hr are long gone, and that's not an entirely bad thing.

[IBCoupe]

GM is in a bind with its Opel subsidiary in Germany. Labor costs are exceedingly high while European auto sales (for the entire industry) have declined year after year.

Exceedingly high in comparison to what?

The same happened in North America near the turn of the century -- unwanted cars continued to be produced and then sold with heavy incentives instead of closing facilities (at a high cost) to allow production to match demand. Incentive pricing and fleet dumping (to sustain volume) placed downward pressure on resale value and drove away retail customers.

We know how all of that turned out in 2009; bankruptcy forced more reasonable labor contracts. GM and Chrysler's new-hires start at a much lower wage (comparable to southern transplants) with a smaller benefits package.

Mostly true, but they're grown-ups. Both sides of that bargaining table made choices.

Yes yes, procedural semantics.

It's a bit more than that. You depict a world in which unions get to do whatever the heck they please and a poor old employer is simply in shackles, subject to the union's whims, but that's a cartoon in a corporate propaganda film. The "procedural semantics" shed light on the world as it is, where the two parties are, in the abstract, equal. Where one is more powerful than the other, it is simply due to the economics of the moment, and the particulars of the contract in question. My union, UAW Local 571 has been, for the past two decades, relatively toothless. Depending on what happens with the Federal Budget, that might change things in the coming few years.

A union hinders what an employer can do with his business in much the same way that emancipation hindered what southern farmers could do with their land. It makes employees into something more like business partners than equipment.

[IBCoupe]

Manufacturing, especially in the US, often requires training and education at a trade school, and trade schools do look at academic histories for enrollment. Education beyond high school isn't limited to enrollment at a community college or traditional 4-year institution. Education includes skilled trades.

The days of stumbling out of high school with a 2.0 and expecting $20/hr are long gone, and that's not an entirely bad thing.

Agreed on all points.