twin scroll turbo with log manifold

[White Comet]

i figured i'd see if i could get a few knowledgeable individuals to weigh in on this, but i am most likely purchasing a turbo that has a twin scroll housing, but to run the turbo on my setup i'd be using and log manifold. since the manifold isnt twin scroll i realize i won't be utilizing that advantage like i could, but i just want to make sure that running a twin scroll turbo on a log type manifold won't cause any negative effects in anyway. thanks for any input.

[j-z]

im no expert, but i wouldnt do it. waste of time and money. do it right the first time . make your own manifold if you can weld. its not hard, and you can already buy premade collectors, and a head flange. buy a couple of doughnuts, measure twice, cut once. i go to the honda-tech welding/fabrication forum for stuff like that. lots of really good guys on there. i say make your own mani if you can weld...

[White Comet]

i am making my own manifold, i want to do the log style for response.

[j-z]

then use a traditional style exhaust housing.....

[mRodiek]

The twin scroll design essentially increases response, thats one of the design advantages and to get all of it advantages you need the proper manifold. The twin scroll manifold is split so two cylinders exhaust pulses can be paired correctly together and the power will increase as well as response, with a log style manifold the pulses will interfere with one another [because it is not split] and you wont be getting the full advantages of the twin scroll design.

[Kalypso]

might even make it worse because now the split in the turbine housing is going to build turbulance and block air - as opposed to a standard t3 or t4 flange

if you can make a log style... you can make a split design also...

do more R&D and its possible.

[White Comet]

then use a traditional style exhaust housing.....

i would but thats the housing thats on the turbo already, so i just wanted to see if it was possible to do it like this because if i don't have to shell out $300 for a housing i don't want to.

The twin scroll design essentially increases response, thats one of the design advantages and to get all of it advantages you need the proper manifold. The twin scroll manifold is split so two cylinders exhaust pulses can be paired correctly together and the power will increase as well as response, with a log style manifold the pulses will interfere with one another [because it is not split] and you wont be getting the full advantages of the twin scroll design.

right i understand the advantages and everything i just didn't know if a log manifold woudl hurt it at all. i will give you a chance to redeem yourself though think hard about the pulses interfering on a log manifold and you might see why that isnt an issue.

might even make it worse because now the split in the turbine housing is going to build turbulance and block air - as opposed to a standard t3 or t4 flange

if you can make a log style... you can make a split design also...

do more R&D and its possible.

hmmm that makes sense. maybe i will have to make a twin scroll manifold.

[Logan76]

Blah, Blah, Blah, all I hear is retardation in this thread. Let me being by saying hes getting the turbo used for a great price, so no need to buy another housing.

saying exhaust gasses in a log manifold pulse against eachother is just a myth, for one there has never been any actual test's that prove that, and when the number 1 cyl's exhaust valve is open, the number 4 cyl's valve is closed, so how could it be causing backperssure in the manifold? I say anyone who say's that is full of s*** unless they show me some test results, mmkay.

J-Z you make a half valid argument, he could do a tublar manifold, but hes on a mad budget and getting a 30R for cheaper than you could buy a used GT28, The log manifold design will be perfect match for his budget setup. Just because he isn't utilizin the twin scroll housing does'nt mean hes going to loose spool up time, there's plenty of people that run twin scroll turbo's without a proper twin scroll manifold and have zero problems at all.

Go ahead with getting a brand new 30R, manifold, and DP for less that 600$ total WC.

[Bumnah]

Buy twin scroll turbo.Save up buy a twin scroll manifold.

You'll need to invest in an aftermarket waste gate anyways. And then you'll need to either run the open dump tube, or have it routed back to your exhaust.

Anyway you look at it, doing an upgrade like this is not a good idea if you're "on a budget".

[Kalypso]

How bout this... make a log style for now,

and while you're tuning the car and getting it running you can make the twin scroll and take your time.

by then you'll be a welding pro and you can even make 2 manifolds... sell the second.

[Logan76]

That's what I told him, he can use the Log for a year or so, still make nice power. Then if he really wants to do it, go with a twin scroll later down the road.

Bumnah I think hes using the stock internal gate for now, I think he may see some boost spike though.

I do care to address Bumnah's comment about being on a budget. Everyone's on a budget some people's are just larger than others. Most of us 240 owners are'nt the richest guys in the world. There's Honda guys out there with fluxcored up log manifolds running 10's in gutted out civic's/crx's with like 3k invested. WC isn't looking to set the world on fire with this setup, but it can sure as hell be on a budget, He does'nt need a full-race manifold to have a top mounted turbo, He wants to have more power and do it in a very cost effective manner, and I see no problem with his plan.
Modified by Logan76 at 9:14 AM 5/14/2009

[Bumnah]

My comment is more geared towards having well thought out and reliable upgrades.

Many people fail to realize how much all these pieces work together. Changing one affects many different things.

Nissan spent millions tuning their sr motor to work with a particular turbo motor. That's how you get OEM level reliability. Swapping the turbo to a non oem setup like a twin scroll in this situation. Isn't as simple as you may be viewing it. Yeah maybe you'll get it to work, but how reliable will it be?

Let's say he's getting the turbo brand new for $300.Then let's say he get's it to mount up to his oem setup. Let's even say the oem waste gate transfers over. Let's keep going and say a standard sr20det turbo elbow swaps over as well as the down pipe and the exhaust.

Next up is the ecu tune. There are a lot of tuners out there, but for the sake of argument, R.S. Enthalpy Tuning is who he goes with. A standard tune is $500 not taking into account any extra charge for a twin scroll setup. If he needs to get it on to a dyno to see baseline and slight tuning, maybe another $150 we'll say he gets 2 hours of dyno time with a tuner (very unlikely for $150). So far without the dyno session it's $800. That doesn't include any injectors or a z32 maf. In any case you can are looking at $1000+ easy, not a small budget by any standards.

Now you can argue do it like this or like that and cut costs. Yup sure can, also cut down on reliability.

From personal experience every heavily modified civic, 240sx, whatever; rarely runs well or as nicely as a stock setup. Unless you spend big big bucks.

I'm not saying spend big $, but be realistic with your goals. I too want turbo upgrades. Reality is a properly modified and tuned turbo upgrade isn't cheap by any standards.

Everyone makes the mistake of buying a part "because it's a good price" I did the same with the Battle Version rear arms and I resold them. The buyer messaged me about issues with them. Guess what? I may have to compensate that buyer for a part I sold that did work as promised. There goes my "good deal".

I'd spend the $ elsewhere. Normally I'd say suspension, but perhaps interior upgrades? Nice stereo setup perhaps? Modify the car, but don't downgrade the fun factor.

[Logan76]

I agree with you there, I think hes planning to budget in the big turbo, but 400$ for a brand new GT3071R is too cheap to pass up. I told him worse comes to worse he could probably find someone that would trade him for a GT2871R. I've always personally favored homemade cars, I like seeing a fluxcored downpipe, and jb welded stuff and it working. I do belive there is only so much you can effectively skimp on, like obviously if he gets this turbo he needs Injectors, maf, and a tune.

My only concern with where we stand as enthusiasts is that with so many forums out there today, they all seem to have the same vibe. Everyone has that forum attitude, that "well so and so said I need a full-race equal length manifold to have a car that makes decent power" Where that is about as far from the truth as it is. I hate how the best parts are pushed upon everybody and no one has any initiative to make their own parts. So what you take a shot at making a manifold and you fail, your out what 80$ in materials? I just think that sometimes the hype of name brands gets to be excessive and people shut down ideas/builds just because they have homemade parts or idea's that would require them to make something themselves. I don't like how name brands are pushed and if it isn't the biggest baller build, its just no good. Hopefully someone can see eye to eye with me.

[Bumnah]

Well at least we agree on the expense side (this turbo swap is not cheap).

As for the flux core welding and jb weld manifold, we don't see eye to eye.

I'll leave it at that. Any further discussion is pointless, as it doesn't pertain to the thread topic.

[Logan76]

Well I would never JB weld anything, but its intresting to see it work. I doubt it would work on a manifold anyway, There is nothing wrong with fluxcore though, from a strength standpoint. It was nice discussing with you even though we don't see eye to eye.

[j-z]

i totally agree with making your own shlt. im all for that, as i make my own shlt. why pay for something when you can do it yourself.

however, i do disagree with you about name brands like 'full race' being hyped up. its not hype. its been proven over and over and over that they are the shlt. they know the science behind making/fabbing parts. thats what youre paying for, and not just the name. that is the reason that makes their name so expensive.

i say WC gets the turbo, sells it for a profit, or even trades it for a traditional t3/t4. all along while still sticking to making his log mani.

[Bumnah]

Well I would never JB weld anything, but its intresting to see it work. I doubt it would work on a manifold anyway, There is nothing wrong with fluxcore though, from a strength standpoint. It was nice discussing with you even though we don't see eye to eye.

Well yeah, if the weld has good penetration obviously it's strong. I should clarify though, when you talk about fluxcore welding, I'm picturing stick welding. There is nothing wrong with stick welding, it's just the welds aren't as clean as a gas mig, and TIG (if tig is available).

Reading around the SIMPLEST and most effective upgrade is to go to an S15 turbo. You can keep your oem manifold which is very good. You can even keep your oem hot pipe and intake. In some cases the turbo elbow can swap over.

To save on expense you can probably get away with the oem tune until you can afford to do the tuning upgrades.

For a street car, it's hard for me to even consider anything else. Reliable 300 whp. In a 240sx that weights less than 3000 lbs, it's almost perfect.

[mrgreeneyes]

Reading around the SIMPLEST and most effective upgrade is to go to an S15 turbo. You can keep your oem manifold which is very good. You can even keep your oem hot pipe and intake. In some cases the turbo elbow can swap over.

To save on expense you can probably get away with the oem tune until you can afford to do the tuning upgrades.

For a street car, it's hard for me to even consider anything else. Reliable 300 whp. In a 240sx that weights less than 3000 lbs, it's almost perfect.

AMEN. my plans TO THE "T"

[Logan76]

I meant fluxcore wire feed, I dont really consider it MIG welding unless your using solid wire and gas.

Yeah I personally think the GT2871R is Gods gift to the SR20, Ive rode in lots of SR powered cars, and that turbo spools fast and can break the 400hp mark.

[Bumnah]

My turbo options are as follows:

GT28RS (I'm trying to rip of Dave Colemans Project Silvia)S15 T28GT2871R.

I'll most probably go the s15 route to be honest. If I get 300 wheel horsepower, I'll be happy. I say 300 because I just want to be able to say "it makes 300 horsepower". Reality is, unless my T25 blows or my SR blows. Low probability of upgrade.

[White Comet]

i was going to quote a respond to each person but i don't feel like taking that much time, so i'll try to some it all up at once. for starters i know that no good turbo setup is "cheap". but making this particular turbo fit on the car will be. i checked the turbo out today and decided to pick it up for a great price. i'm just about to order the rest of the pieces i need to make the manifold and dp. i am going with a log manifold and sticking with it since the turbo is not twin scroll, the guy must have been thinking of the turbo he got to replace this one. im not concerned about the quality of the welds and fabbing since it'll be my brother doing to work and he's very good at this. i plan on running a tune with injectors fpr, and mafs. just because i can make the manifold or get the turbo for cheap doesnt mean i'm cheaping out on the project. i considered selling or trading the turbo, but thats more hassle then making this turbo work. i originally thought about trading it for a gt29871r but after much thinking, a gt30 woudl be best for my goals, and it doesn't make much sense to trade/sell a gt30 for another one. i have goals of roughly 400 whp and its doable on a gt2871r but this turbo will do it easier. the welding will be migged btw and nothing ghetto. i didnt pick this up solely because it was a good deal, true i was planning to go 2871 but about a week prior to finding this deal i started considering going with a 30, and it seemed like the best choice. i don't make impulse buys solely because its a good deal. as for the budget, theres only a budget to get the car rolling again, i don't plan on stopping after that though.

[mRodiek]

I love the idea of a twin scroll turbo, even on a DD car because with a boost controller you can turn it down whenever you need to, awesome idea. But, I do agree with Bumnah that a S15 turbo is the best way to go as for a turbo upgrade..at least first time around. As he said, 300hp in a <3000lb car, no complaints

In WC's defense, I think that the twin scroll, as stated is an awesome idea and the benefits are great. That being said I still think the proper manifold would do best and I would spend the money.

Although I agree that many companies overcharge and many parts you can make yourself, I wouldnt do it unless I 150% knew what I was doing and understood everything completely.

WC, I cant wait to see what happens, and good luck to ya

[sommmatt]

It will still spin the turbo. If you've got the s*** cheap enough, I don't see why not.

[roplusbee]

Well, I am glad that you will not be just throwing stuff together and have a plan for SUCCESS instead of some of the randomness that has been floating around out there. WC is one of the few folks that I have been following closely (quietly though) to see how their setups will turn out. I am a little sad that it is not the TS GT3071R and TS manifold because I wanted to see how you planned on keeping your AC. The only thing keeping me from ordering the Full-Race TS GT30 kit is the part about it not being AC compatible and that doesn't sit well with me. Good luck with the upgrade.

[White Comet]

i already ditched the ac so its of no problem to me but thanks for the kind words. i agree an s15 turbo isn't bad, but i plan on having more power then that can support and this costs me $350 so i'm happy.

jsut in cae you missed it it is not twin scroll like i was previously told

[Kalypso]

oh wow.... so all that back and forth was for the birds...

LOG STYLE T3!!!

[White Comet]

^ yep a whole argument for nothing, and yep the parts for the log manifold have been ordered and i hope to have everything on in the next 3 weeks.

[Bumnah]

I didn't view it as an argument; simply people expressing their opinion. Isn't that the point of car forums?

[White Comet]

ehh there was opinion expressing, but everyone was arguing their point. arguing doesnt always have to be hostile.

[Kalypso]

^ for the win

/thread