turbo/MC interference, engine not "right" in bay

[Nathan]

Several weeks ago I put my newly rebuilt motor in the car (an S13) which went relatively easily, the only issue was that it did NOT want to settle onto the passenger side mount but this was finally fixed. Since then I recieved my new manifold, IAP's latest version. It has been verified that this newest version fit onto Marc's car (an S14) without issue and both of our manifolds were made with the same jig. The problem is that the outlet of the turbine is directly in front of the brake lines coming off the inside of the master cylinder. Here are two pictures: I have done several things to address this problem, the first of which was to call Marc and verify that the manifold was working fine on other cars to remove that from the equation. The second thing I did was have Megaseth03 with his stock, never removed engine come over to verify I had the mounts set up right, we both agreed that the motor looked like it was sitting a good bit higher in the front than his and did not look like it was aligned longitudinally with the rest of the car. It was at this point that I figured out the engine mounts could be slid up and down, both of them were almost all the way down in the slots as well. After I figured out that the brackets were on the correct sides, I tried lifting the drivers side of the engine as high in the mount slot as possible while dropping the passenger side as low as possible. This was the point the pictures were taken at. This did nothing to solve the problem of the future downpipe running right THROUGH the brake lines, only made the engine sit even higher, albeit less tilted than before. It's hard to see the problem from the pictures but hopefully you understand what I mean. I'm at my wits end on this issue and have now discussed it with 3 knowledgeable people who have no idea how to solve the problem. I see my only choices currently as either modifying or fabricating new motor mounts that put the damned thing in the RIGHT place (shifted towards the passenger side about 2 inches), or beating it with a 20 lb. sledge hammer until I feel vindicated. Can anyone else offer any other suggestions of places to look for a solution? Also, it should be noted that the transmission is a 95 transmission, the motor is a 92 motor, and the car is a 91 chassis. The transmission mount from a 91 transmission mounted up perfectly as well.

[TrunkMonkey]

what master cylinder is that?

-demetrius

[Phax]

I know this isn't related to what you asked, but I just gotta say... Damn, that's a nice freakin turbo.

[C-Kwik]

I'm thinking you have an ABS equipped car. If so, that's likely the problem. ABS M/C's seem to get in the way. I think there was a discussion a while back on FA. It had to do with mounting a tangetial T4 or a T3 turbine on a rev-hard mani. it seemed to come down to whether or not the car came with ABS or not. Your M/C appears to have 2 cylinders. The non-ABS has only one IIRC.

[Nathan]

You know, I hadn't even considered that it might have ABS. I know that Megaseth and I noticed that the resevoir was different between ours but didn't give it any more thought than that. If it has ABS, it wont for long :biggun: I can't stand that crap. Who knows what needs to be changed to remove ABS? Part of the problem is I've never driven this car (bought with blown motor) so I really don't know a whole lot about it except what I've been working on which doesn't include the brake system. Thanks for the answers, I'll report back soon on if it has ABS or not.

[C-Kwik]

Why do you want to? ABS helps you to stop faster and you can brake deeper into a turn.

[Nathan]

Well, it doesn't matter anyway because I've verified I do NOT have ABS. Thank you service manual. The reason the MC looks like it has two cylinders is because one of them is the "Dual proportioning valve" which apparently you should not dissasemble either I just dislike ABS because it's always with the pulsing and on my blazer it was super sensitive and just generally annoyed the heck out of me, I realize it's better to have it than not but the pulsing is just too bothersome. Another possibility that has now been eliminated is the fact that turbonetics T3 turbine housings are more On-Center than the Garrett T3 housings. Because the Garrett housings are tangential, it makes the turbo sit further towards the drivers side and was a possible problem since Marc uses turbonetics housings. However, this has now been discounted as Marc just told me they have 3 cars running the same housing as me, 2 S14's, 1 S13. While the fresh ideas were certainly good and plausible, we're still back at square 1

[andrave]

has the car been checked at a body shop? maybe the frame is bent...

[Nathan]

No it has not. However, the guy I bought it from didn't know of it being in any collisions, the carfax came out clean and the car is VERY straight. If it's been in a collision, it's impossible to tell, all the body panels line up perfect, body panels all look original, it's obviously not been painted in ANY kind of recent history...I have considered that option as well but just cant believe it's been wrecked, it looks perfect as far as the body goes with some small dings as the only exception.

[Charlie240sxt]

I say use a hammer at the time but youll really wish you didnt later?!?!?!

Ill check out some stuff to see if the trannys are diff in any way and get back to you guys

[KApwr]

Dude, it's the garret 4 bolt T3 housing. It is definitely more tangential then the 5bolt T3 that turbonetics & precision uses. From what I can see from the pic, it looks like it will barely clear but I could be wrong since you have firsthand view of it. Believe it or not, the 5bolt will bring the exit closer to the head giving you more clearance for the downpipe. I would confirm with Marc again and ask if you can contact the other users with the 4bolt garrett to see how their setup looks. I had the same problem back in the days when there was a big debate about T3/T4 not fitting on the revhard when i've done a couple on peeps cars and they fit fine. Turns out that other people were using turbonetics T3 housings while I used Garrett's 5bolt and even though they looked identical, they were off leading to people not being able to use the revhard manifold with a T4/T4. No matter what, the downpipe will be very close to the brake lines and you have to take proper measures to protect them from the heat. I recommend you ceremic coat the manifold and downpipe to protect against it.

[Nathan]

KApwr, I am inclined to agree with you that a switch to a more on-center turbine would help fix the problem. However, Marc HAS said he has a customer with an S13 who is running the same turbine housing as me. Just the same though, do you know if turbonetics turbine housings can bolt to garrett center sections? If so I might just find a turbonetics housing and sell off the garrett. As for the heat, I have some exhaust wrap for the downpipe and some reflective heat shielding for the master cylinder. I just have to get it to actually CLEAR, something that is evidently off a bit when you look at this latest pictures:

[TrunkMonkey]

I'm thinking you have an ABS equipped car. If so, that's likely the problem. ABS M/C's seem to get in the way. I think there was a discussion a while back on FA. It had to do with mounting a tangetial T4 or a T3 turbine on a rev-hard mani. it seemed to come down to whether or not the car came with ABS or not. Your M/C appears to have 2 cylinders. The non-ABS has only one IIRC.

my convertible doesn't have abs and it has the the same style master cylinder as nathan (the reservoir is different, but the cylinder itself is identical). my old non-abs fastback also had the same master cylinder.

nathan, what engine mounts are you using?

-demetrius

[Nathan]

Stock...what's really crazy is that I hadn't moved them at all until after I put the new motor back in and found the clearance problem. I'm thinking of switching to an S14 MC, trying to get the brake lines as cleared out of the way as possible, maybe sliding the turbo over just a hair, and shimming between the motor mount bracket and the block to push it just a little further over. Perhaps all of those things would add up to where it would clear.

[TrunkMonkey]

i really think your problem would be solved if you figured why your engine doesn't sit correctly in the engine bay. using shims and an S14 master cylinder may work, but what's to say the engine won't vibrate/shift more than usual in it's new position and the clearance you do make isn't enough.

as much of a pain in the *** as it is, i'd pull the engine one more time and triple check everything.

-demetrius

[Nathan]

Hmmm, but pulling the engine would entail driving across town to rent another engine crane for 40 bucks per day...something I REALLY dont want to do. I have actually pulled the mount brackets off the block and compared them to a second set that I have, I've also checked the actual rubbery motor mounts and made sure they were oriented correctly. Does anyone know how hard it is to somehow bend/distort the subframe? I'm wondering if I didn't inadvertently do that somehow when I put the motor back in.

[TrunkMonkey]

Does anyone know how hard it is to somehow bend/distort the subframe? I'm wondering if I didn't inadvertently do that somehow when I put the motor back in.

i'd be very surprised if you did. i beat the crap outta mine the first couple of times i pulled my sohc out of my fastback and i had no problems.

-demetrius

[Nathan]

Well, I've come to the realization that sadly...it probably isn't that the motor isn't sitting right in the bay, its the manifold/turbo combination interfering with the S13 style master cylinder. In light of this problem, I'm going to pioneer a new, fun solution. I'm going to make my own engine mounts out of good 1/4 steel next weekend. I'll just move the whole engine over and not only will the turbo clear the master cylinder then, but the downpipe will have more room, wastegate will have more room...it'll be better all around.

[TrunkMonkey]

i'm confused now . i thought there were other people running the same turbine housing as you in their S13s and had no problems at all. wasn't someone even using a 3" downpipe? if theirs works, then your should too.

-demetrius

[andrave]

just because the manifold was made from the same jig doesn't mean they are identical... I'd consider sending it to them to double check that one.also, solid steel mounts? hope you don't like your fillings cause they are gonna rattle out...

[BoostFab]

shouldn't you rotate the turbo's core to line up the oil inlet and outlet vertically?

and, the manifold probably wasn't built correctly for that turbo. i think you can have them reposition the collector, with the turbime angle in more to clear the MC. that turbo look like an off-center version.

[Nathan]

Well, it turns out this can all be explained easily (as most "impossible" problems seem to go). It turns out there was a miscommunication between Marc and I, when I asked him if he had people running garrett style 4 bolt turbines he said yes, but he was talking about the OUTLET of the turbine, not where the inlet is in relation to the housing. They use an on center turbo, mine is obviously a tangential. He just looked at my pictures and said thats the deal so tomorrow I'll call Ken at cheap turbo and see what he can do for me, I'll probably just buy a new on center housing. The only thing I dont like about this is the on center housings are supposedly not as efficient or good as tangential, a fact that almost makes me still want to fab up some new mount brackets to move the engine over. Oh, and boost fed, I should clock the center section, I just haven't gotten around to it, I need to do it to the compressor too. But if I change housings I might as well wait.

[TrunkMonkey]

The only thing I dont like about this is the on center housings are supposedly not as efficient or good as tangential...

bah.

there's MAYBE a 4-5% difference in flow, but i've never seen any proof of this affecting overall performance.

-demetrius

[Nathan]

eh, your right...I'm going overboard again. I'll let you guys know whats up, hopefully I can have the new housing here by friday.

[sxseguy]

Hmmm.... I don't think anyone makes an on-center T3 housing. You may have to sell or trade your T3/T4 hybrid for a straight T4.

[Nathan]

I'm 99% certain turbonetics does, or at least a MORE on-center housing than the Garrett one. I'll let ya'll know tomorrow.

[BoostFab]

They use an on center turbo, mine is obviously a tangential. He just looked at my pictures and said thats the deal

that's exactly what i was thinking when looking at your turbo...lol. couldn't you have the guy made the manifold sent you another or modify that current one--instead of replacing the turbine housing?

[Nathan]

couldn't you have the guy made the manifold sent you another or modify that current one--instead of replacing the turbine housing?

Faster and easier to just swap housings at a marginal difference in price

[Nathan]

So I called up Ken at cheapturbo.com and said "Hey Ken, I bought a turbo from ya'll about 6 months ago, I just got my import-autoperformance manifold and..." at this point Ken cuts me off, he says "Before you go any further, I bet I can tell you what your problem is, your turbine housing is hitting the master cylinder, why dont you unbolt your turbine housing and send it back to us with a MO for 65$ (shipping included) and we'll get that new housing out to you right away." So thats the new, fun solution for the day

[TrunkMonkey]

i'm glad the fix is that easy.

keep us updated.

-demetrius