turbo manifolds? power gains from equal length over revhard? experiences?????

[mikesloud]

has any one used revhard manifold for 15-24psi a while and changed to equal length race type manifold styles , was there a loss of spool? gain of low end power? how hp was gained if any at same boost??

Is it worth the change from revhard?

any input greatly appreciated

[Structure240sx]

i have only had my revhard. i personally like it being cast iron and short runners. to me the biggest benefit would be having alot more choices in turbos (tangential)

[rubin]

sorry for bringing back an old thread but i was just going through some of the pages and saw this

just wondered the difference short runners would have against long runners

and equal lenth versus unequal

i know that for NA motors long equal length is the way to go

[Structure240sx]

equal length will produce more power and can make spool happen a couple hundred rpms less from less velocity because of the better flow. full-race did a test on a civic and made 40rwhp more with jsut replacing a log with their mani. scott avoy (enthaply) had similar results if not better on an sr with a full-race manifold $1200 price tag though

[DRIFTEADOR]

the civic did make more power but spool time increased. can't say all equal lengths will do the same but that's the complete opposite of what everyone had been saying for years.

[rubin]

what about short vs. long??

the reason im asking this is because i looked on jegs website and for about 150-200 you would have all the bends you need, including a collector

only thing is that it seems the headers would be quite long, especially with the collector since its designed for muscle car V8 long tube headers

for another 100 or so bux you'd have a custom downpipe

another couple hundred youd have a full 3 inch exhaust

[DRIFTEADOR]

sounds too easy to be true doesnt it? it probably is

it's almost hard to fit a log maniofld in there without clearance problems, i can't imagine fitting a long-tube equal length in there. and also there's the material difference between mandrel bends and the elbows used to make manifolds

[rubin]

havent thought about the different material problem... guess it would be a big problem once things start expanding at different rates then all the welds would crack

has anyone on here ever made a custom manifold??? if so was it top or bottom mount and some pics would be much appreciated

this would be my dream:top mount equal length, 3 inch downpipe, flow-thru cat, 3 inch piping, magnaflow muffler

[hysteria]

yeah full race said that the difference between a cast manifold and their race manifold for the SR was a difference of 60 hp to the ground. that's a big difference. i want to see the dyno sheets and an alibi.

[Jeff240sx]

yeah full race said that the difference between a cast manifold and their race manifold for the SR was a difference of 60 hp to the ground. that's a big difference. i want to see the dyno sheets and an alibi.

That's Scott's test. Built sr at 18psi made 300rwhp. Customer wanted 500+. It would have been stupid boost levels with the JGS manifold, so when thinking of the differences between his car and the customer's car.. Full-Race manifold popped up.So.. he only changed the manifold.. 360rwhp @ 18psi.

Search FreshAlloy for dyno sheet, and Scott giving his alibi (it's exactly what I wrote here).-Jeff

[hysteria]

that's crazy. they're making one for the ka too.... i guess it would be nice to test a few of the manifolds against eachother to see what the difference is. ivan's is pretty nice, i wonder if there would be a difference between his $700-800 manifold and their $1000+ manifold.if i had the money and a dyno i would definitely test out the different ones to see what kind of difference there is...

i would be interested in seeing the testing of ssac's manifolds also because they are knock offs and commonly get made fun of. i wonder how they would stack up...

.... it seems the cast examples will be lacking in this department but there are a bunch of different equal length tubular manifolds out there that could be pitted against eachother. someone should look into this. hmm.

if the difference there was 60 hp in those lower power levels by simply switching from a cast to a tubular imagine what kind of difference it makes at 500+hp.

structure you have a cast mani right?... ever think about switching? definitely do a write up if it ever happens, that is how the car feels different, what the difference in dyno numbers are, etc... obviously it's not a priority, but if it ever happens...

[Jeff240sx]

structure you have a cast mani right?... ever think about switching? definitely do a write up if it ever happens, that is how the car feels different, what the difference in dyno numbers are, etc... obviously it's not a priority, but if it ever happens...

I was going to do a writeup on the Boost Designs manifold when I switched, but it's so proprietary that nothing from my old setup could be retained.I ran open DP for a while because it doesn't hook up to any but their exhaust. Switched to a t3/4e turbo from my full t4, ect. Just the turbo swap alone turned the car into a different monster.But ya.. for most people with a cast (revhard) manifold are running a full t4 due to clearance, and BD, PKA-T, or Full Race are all t3 flanged. Poor chance for a writeup, imo.-Jeff

[hysteria]

yeah... i was half joking half thinking "hmm that would be interesting..."

[DRIFTEADOR]

i just came across the sr20 full race manifold thread and I have to say, simply stating that the full race manifold increased 60hp, imo, is very misleading. there were other changes made besides just the manifold and it should be noted that the motor had aggressive aftermarket cams. with stock cams the difference wouldn't be as big.

full race makes great products though, no doubt. i don't think there are many who can compare to their quality

outside

inside

collector

[rn240sx]

has any one used revhard manifold for 15-24psi a while and changed to equal length race type manifold styles , was there a loss of spool? gain of low end power? how hp was gained if any at same boost??

Is it worth the change from revhard?

any input greatly appreciated

Well lets see....

I started with the fmax manifold and i didnt know any better cause it was my 1st turbo kit...I then went onto the revhard manifold and it was no different except for the fact that I GAINED 1.5 psi just by switching the manifold.. My only conclusion to that is the placement of the wastegate. On the fmax manifold, the wastegate was placed on the # 4 runner of the manifold ( odd if u ask me ), and the revhard places the wastegate at the what u would call a virtual collector..I then went onto the IAP equal length tubular manifold and it was a NIGHT and DAY difference..!! Boost came on faster, spooled up faster and the power was still there all the way to redline with no hold off...With the revhard and the fmax, spool up was not as fast and quick and the power dropped off around 5500 rpm... Literally felt the motor dead after 5500 rpm..!!This was the BEST investment i made with the exception of the fuel system upgrade so that i could boost moreI wont ever get rid of this manifold. Ive had it for almost a year now and its still in-tact.. It didnt have robotic welds, but there wasent weld boogers everywhere either.. It looked pretty darn clean and neat and the powder coating is still there on most of the manifold..

Well, thats my .02

[Jeff240sx]

i just came across the sr20 full race manifold thread and I have to say, simply stating that the full race manifold increased 60hp, imo, is very misleading. there were other changes made besides just the manifold and it should be noted that the motor had aggressive aftermarket cams. with stock cams the difference wouldn't be as big.

You're wrong. Misleading is when Denso claims 51hp gains on a race motor for swapping sparkplugs. When the Tornado claims hp and fuel economy increases, with no empirical data.

Other changes made? You're an idiot. And not the first, because some other idiot made a post.. like the 10th post in the thread.Quote »i dont doubt that full race doesn't make a good product, but this dyno figured in two variables. its worthless. its another apples and oranges dyno, and doesn't tell anything. [/quote]Followed immediately by Scott's:Quote »why is it worthless?

eveything was the same.

Turbo, AFR's, Timing, downpipe design, hotpipe design, engine management, same MAF, same injectors, boost level...all on the same dyno! WTF more do you want?

Maybe ou need to re-read the post...the car is STILL runnin on ROM tune with Z32 MAF...we didnt switch over to haltech!! [/quote]Read better before calling one of the best manifold comparisons misleading, and telling everything that other stuff changed.-Jeff

[DRIFTEADOR]

whoa, easy there with the name calling buddy. i did make a mistake. i misinterpreted where he compared the setup to his ownQuote »This is what we came up with:

1) Log manifold vs. Full Race manifold.

2) ROM tune with MAF vs. Haltech on MAP[/quote]however, someone with stock cams cant expect the same gains, and thats what i meant by misleading.

Full-Race Geoff » you are correct, if the car has very small cams, the gains will not be as dramatic.

agreed!! with stock cams on the SR (240 duration 9.2mm lift) the log manifold performs slightly better than it did in this test. however the addition of 264 deg 10.5mm cams with a LOT mroe overlap produced no power gains due to excessive turbo manifold backpressure.

so this is a dyno comparison of cams+manifold not manifold only

[Jeff240sx]

It's not misleading, because it's not my SR vs. his SR at the same boost and he has cams. It's a direct comparison of the same motor, nothing changed but the manifold.

Saying this dyno is misleading is like saying that any of PhatKA-Ts dynos are misleading, because they have a different turbo, and even with their manifold and cams, you can't expect the same power at that pressure. See?

Can a KA-T expect 60rwhp? With PKA-T's cams and a restrictive manifold (fmax, jgy log-style), I don't see why not.

I don't think "misleading" is a good word, or one that should be used to describe the one and only direct comparison dyno testing done.-Jeff

[WDRacing]

But, in all fairness, I'd rather buy a complete 500rwhp profogger N2O kit and have 500 ponies on tap rather then a equal length mani that costs $1200. The welds are of the best quality I've seen and the design is excellent, worth $1200....no. It's only $300 in materials. so thats quite the markup.

WD

[Jookmasta]

i have to say that those are probably the neatest welds i have seen for a mani.........as for the topic at hand, i too have been struggling with this issue as of late. i am probably going to be looking into getting a new mani but its so hard to think that the cost of the materials and the price of the mani are at the opposite ends of the spectrum. Companies need to make profits but there's only so much that the wallet can stretch to. BD's Mani is the best quality with the lowest cost but this really only leaves the revhard mani and phat kat mani within the ball park area. Revhard is like 150 cheaper and the phat kat is 150 more than the BD............if any of you are looking into spending more than what the phat kat mani goes for for just a mani, i would sincerely hope that ur engine is fully built or u just stumbled upon some brand new tein coilovers that were mistakenly buried in ur backyard.

WD has a good point. 1200 bux, for what? perfection? i think some people on this board may have paid that amount for their car. U just gotta know when to draw the line...........

Anyways, go with the equi length mani IMO. Ive talked to structure about the revhard and for the price difference b/w the equi length, u will save urself from being limited with the turbos. After all, when going into these projects, the last thing we need is "you can only use this or this due to a certain aspect of ur setup"

[DRIFTEADOR]

that makes tornado and denso's claims valid too. the gains they claim are true, just not for your car. i dont know if you read his answer that i posted above, the cams alone didnt add hp which they should have. the motor was restricted before they switched manifolds. that'd be like comparing a turbo-back exhaust to another with a clogged cat.

phatka-t's dynos arent misleading because they tell you the setup, so you know that if you have a diff sized turbo, different cams, or whatever, you need to adjust your power estimates accordingly.

Quote »buy a complete 500rwhp profogger N2O kit and have 500 ponies on tap [/quote]...yea for like 5 seconds until the next refill, lol

[s13sr20chris]

maybe i will give an opinion here.

im skeptical when i read anything on the internet.

every different combination will give different results.

i do like super duper stuff(like that beautiful) manifold, but not $1200 worth. i mean how many psi would have done the same thing from a good size turbo? would it be sooooo bad to settle for 23psi or so? still, detonation would have been more of an issue at 23.

there are some big money homeys over there.

[mikesloud]

what difference did you get when going from full T4 to T3t04 and manifold change ? I am curious did you get better spool , more power , what was rpm changes etc? I run full t4 big kahuna turbo revhard mani, 16-23psi. I want top see if I would benefit more power with it.

[mikesloud]

any one else gain from big T4 to t3/t4?

[Nismo_Freak]

But, in all fairness, I'd rather buy a complete 500rwhp profogger N2O kit and have 500 ponies on tap rather then a equal length mani that costs $1200. The welds are of the best quality I've seen and the design is excellent, worth $1200....no. It's only $300 in materials. so thats quite the markup.

WD

Why bother turbocharging your car then? Why not run just nitrous?

Perhaps because it's easy to spend $2000+ a year in nitrous refills? Imagine how much nitrous a 500 shot would consume, now multiply that by the number of times you'd use it in a normal given week.

Although your point is valid, it's a bit overextrapolated.

I won't be spending $1200 on a manifold either.

[Nismo_Freak]

what difference did you get when going from full T4 to T3t04 and manifold change ? I am curious did you get better spool , more power , what was rpm changes etc? I run full t4 big kahuna turbo revhard mani, 16-23psi. I want top see if I would benefit more power with it.

Depends alot on the A/R's you are talking about.

[WDRacing]

Why bother turbocharging your car then? Why not run just nitrous?

Perhaps because it's easy to spend $2000+ a year in nitrous refills? Imagine how much nitrous a 500 shot would consume, now multiply that by the number of times you'd use it in a normal given week.

Although your point is valid, it's a bit overextrapolated.

I won't be spending $1200 on a manifold either.

Ok, for the amount of WHP that you can make over the a typical log style manifold with a stock motor and just adding boost, since 99% of our members go this route, it would be cheaper to add N2O and your gains would be atleast double. I simply used a 500 fogger as an example. Don't be a pen15.

[Nismo_Freak]

Ok, for the amount of WHP that you can make over the a typical log style manifold with a stock motor and just adding boost, since 99% of our members go this route, it would be cheaper to add N2O and your gains would be atleast double. I simply used a 500 fogger as an example. Don't be a pen15.

I don't think I agree with that.

As I stated nitrous is a continuous payout. In the long run you are better off getting the manifold and having it on tap all the time. It will provide a smoother, more driveable powerband as well.

I'm more or less making a point that while nitrous does give you good gains and is very cheap (per hp) you do pay for it in the long run.

[Structure240sx]

the use of nitrous and running more boost to make more power, puts much more stress on the motor.

with a $1200 full-race the engine is much more effecient making much more power with much less work/stress.

it may be $300 in materials but also probably tens of thousands on their robotic welder they now use over the older hand welded manifolds

[SSS]

the use of nitrous and running more boost to make more power, puts much more stress on the motor.

with a $1200 full-race the engine is much more effecient making much more power with much less work/stress.

it may be $300 in materials but also probably tens of thousands on their robotic welder they now use over the older hand welded manifolds

Precisely. Couldn't have said it better myself, except for the fact that those robotic welders are around the $100k mark.FullRace are the only company i have heard of that design their manifolds with CFD software by mechanical engineers, hence the $$$ for a manifold.I could not justify $1200 on one of them as well, when i can fabricate something similar myself for cost of materials.

The only thing i can add to this discussion is, on an NA engine with stock exhaust manifold, why do people change to aftermarket headers?Less restriction, increased velocity hence increased scavenging effect.Same deal with using an equal length manifold on a turbo engine. Less restriction and increased velocity to spool the turbo.