turbo manifolds? power gains from equal length over revhard? experiences?????

[WDRacing]

Ok, lets talk about making more power. You two guys choose the $1200 manifold. Which is awsome, I don't disagree with that at all. I choose to add a few more lbs of boost instead. Lets say we both end up with the same exact WHP and Torque output cause I'll only add enough boost to get the same numbers.

If both motors are putting out the same amount of power the stress level will be very close, in fact I don't think it can be measured.

Power output is power output. The better manifold may spool quicker by a few hundred RPM, but that is the only thing I can see being of any real advantage here.

Keep in mind I'm not refuting the manifold is definitly better in quality and function. I'm just arguing that you can get the power without spending the money. Cause I will probably never spend 1200bucks on a manifold, unless of course I strike it stupid rich, which I doubt.

[Structure240sx]

both engines would not be under the same amount of stress.

the extra boost you run makes more heat that gets sent through the motor.

it's much easier for me to run 2miles at 8am when its 65 degrees out than at 1pm when its 85 degrees out

[WDRacing]

The heat difference is silly to speak of, or else we would never increase the boost at all. It's slightly more stressful...slightly. The hot air is taken care of by a decent cooling system, good oil and a FMIC thats worth a crap.

I'm just saying you can't measure the amount of stress...I know many vehicles that have run for over 100,000miles with boosted motors. If your running a heat pump for a turbo thats one thing, but we're not.

[Structure240sx]

just felt like going against you

[WDRacing]

I don't mind debating Anthony...

[nissanfanatic]

So IHE put more stress on the engine? Same principle.

[Nismo_Freak]

Ok, lets talk about making more power. You two guys choose the $1200 manifold. Which is awsome, I don't disagree with that at all. I choose to add a few more lbs of boost instead. Lets say we both end up with the same exact WHP and Torque output cause I'll only add enough boost to get the same numbers.

If both motors are putting out the same amount of power the stress level will be very close, in fact I don't think it can be measured.

Power output is power output. The better manifold may spool quicker by a few hundred RPM, but that is the only thing I can see being of any real advantage here.

What if you are li mited by pump gas tune, injection systems aside. The additional latent heat of compression, along with the added cylinder pressure from the rise in boost both contribute to aiding detonation.

Engine efficiency is power that is essentially free. Adding boost pressure requires more fuel and you are STILL being limited by the restrictive manifold in the long run. Increasing boost pressure increases the exhaust manifold pressure and greater amounts of reversion will occur, further limiting power gains.

Not too mention most of our turbo setups don't have a magic 60whp worth of boost left in them. If the engine allows for it then it is maxed out, if not then you simply cannot safely add boost pressure. You can increase engine VE which will inturn increase mass flow while maintaining moderated cylinder pressures.

Furthermore you introduce greater shaft RPM on the turbocharger. It's bearings are under greater stress and the oil then absorbs more heat.

To me "run more boost" is a band-aid fix, it introduces more problems than the alternative.

[SSS]

So IHE put more stress on the engine? Same principle.

No it's not. You are not forcing extra pressure into the engine, which is what a turbo does (obviously).IHE helps reduce the pumping losses of an engine.

[WDRacing]

You definitly can not call more boost a band-aid fix.

For the additional $900 I have left over from buying the JGS instead of the Full-Race, I can easily make up 60WHP without adding nitrous...hell, a simple $60 water injection system will kill any latent heat that raising the boost causes. Can't taise the boost, then add more timing. You can't say I'm not allowed to tune the car, thats a bad comparison. I'm saying I can spend my money in different places and get more gains. Your saying the equal length header is a better route. I disagree...

WD

[Nismo_Freak]

You definitly can not call more boost a band-aid fix.

For the additional $900 I have left over from buying the JGS instead of the Full-Race, I can easily make up 60WHP without adding nitrous...hell, a simple $60 water injection system will kill any latent heat that raising the boost causes. Can't taise the boost, then add more timing. You can't say I'm not allowed to tune the car, thats a bad comparison. I'm saying I can spend my money in different places and get more gains. Your saying the equal length header is a better route. I disagree...

WD

I'm not saying you aren't allowed to, I'm saying that it's not like you can't do the same with the manifold on the car.

It all boils down to I want efficiency and you just want numbers.

Numbers might be faster, but they are more complex, more prone to failure, and in the long run tend to be more costly than the efficiency route.

[nissanfanatic]

No it's not. You are not forcing extra pressure into the engine, which is what a turbo does (obviously).IHE helps reduce the pumping losses of an engine.

Also the same point behind tubular manifolds. What I said was slight sarcasm/response to more boost for more power. Just in case you were taking it as me saying that IHE actually does put more stress on the engine.lol Like an interrogative answer more or less...

[Structure240sx]

this thread started as "...power gains from equal lenght..." not how to make more power with a certain amount of money

we should not even be mentioned more boost unless its to say that the equal lenght makes as much power as a log with more boost

[hysteria]

i think though that wd makes a good point because let's look at a completely stock ka24de with a bolt on turbo...now whether i choose to get my power from having the most efficient setup out there and it runs perfectly or one that will require more boost to make the same numbers the engine will stand up to comparable numbers, not comparable boost...if that doesn't make sense i'll use an example:for the good quality kit lets take phat ka-t kit as an example, and then something a little bit lower quality (not quite as low as ssac, but something like that, maybe a pieced together kit that isn't quite as good)... now let's say for comparisons sake phat ka-t's kit takes about 11 psi to make 350+ hp.... to get the same numbers from the other kit it will take probably 15 psi or maybe more....now neglecting power/torque numbers lets say i then push the quality kits boost numbers up to the same as the other engine (15+psi)... well then the reliability of the engine with the higher quality kit comes into play as the engine is reaching it's power limitations based on experiences people have had with ring lands and what not breaking in the engine... the other engine will not be making the same power but it's not going to die because they are not doing the same thing... stress is different here, but when the power levels were the same the stresses were ~the same...

does that makes sense?

[Nismo_Freak]

i think though that wd makes a good point because let's look at a completely stock ka24de with a bolt on turbo...now whether i choose to get my power from having the most efficient setup out there and it runs perfectly or one that will require more boost to make the same numbers the engine will stand up to comparable numbers, not comparable boost...if that doesn't make sense i'll use an example:for the good quality kit lets take phat ka-t kit as an example, and then something a little bit lower quality (not quite as low as ssac, but something like that, maybe a pieced together kit that isn't quite as good)... now let's say for comparisons sake phat ka-t's kit takes about 11 psi to make 350+ hp.... to get the same numbers from the other kit it will take probably 15 psi or maybe more....now neglecting power/torque numbers lets say i then push the quality kits boost numbers up to the same as the other engine (15+psi)... well then the reliability of the engine with the higher quality kit comes into play as the engine is reaching it's power limitations based on experiences people have had with ring lands and what not breaking in the engine... the other engine will not be making the same power but it's not going to die because they are not doing the same thing... stress is different here, but when the power levels were the same the stresses were ~the same...

does that makes sense?

Somewhat.

You don't understand that it's not the power that is breaking the pistons, it's the cylinder pressure. Craming 15psi into the engine (using your generalization) is what breaks the pistons, not the actual output of the engine.

[Red-KAT]

i think though that wd makes a good point because let's look at a completely stock ka24de with a bolt on turbo...now whether i choose to get my power from having the most efficient setup out there and it runs perfectly or one that will require more boost to make the same numbers the engine will stand up to comparable numbers, not comparable boost...if that doesn't make sense i'll use an example:for the good quality kit lets take phat ka-t kit as an example, and then something a little bit lower quality (not quite as low as ssac, but something like that, maybe a pieced together kit that isn't quite as good)... now let's say for comparisons sake phat ka-t's kit takes about 11 psi to make 350+ hp.... to get the same numbers from the other kit it will take probably 15 psi or maybe more....now neglecting power/torque numbers lets say i then push the quality kits boost numbers up to the same as the other engine (15+psi)... well then the reliability of the engine with the higher quality kit comes into play as the engine is reaching it's power limitations based on experiences people have had with ring lands and what not breaking in the engine... the other engine will not be making the same power but it's not going to die because they are not doing the same thing... stress is different here, but when the power levels were the same the stresses were ~the same...

does that makes sense?

Even so the man who makes 350 at 10psi wins over the man with 350 at 15psi becuse it take less time and effort to make 10psi. So the mani would win in more then one way. Not only will it spool you faster but you require less boost to hit the same #'s making the boost seem that much faster. Anyone can be a dyno queen, what you want is good power across a large range.

All in all I am one who wasted 1200 on a TI exahust to save 12lb's. So 1200 on a Mani would be no big if it improves the overall quality of my boost.

Nitrous is a band-aid power gain IMHO.

[DRIFTEADOR]

imo, the high dollar manifolds are more for people trying to make big power. the owner of the car who's dyno was posted earlier in this thread wanted big power which he wasn't going to get from a his last manifold. there is a point where an inferior manifold becomes restrictive and no more or little gains are made from more boost, or in his case bigger cams+boost.

[hysteria]

i don't think it makes sense though to only consider boost pressure. there are other factors that go into whether or not the engine will survive at a certian stress level. back pressure, piston acceleration, balance, power output, etc. the flow characteristics of an engine contribute to it's life, and free flow doesn't always mean longer living.i think the power output of the engine is very much related to its survival. boost pressure is not universal.are you saying that no matter how much power/torque i extract from an engine, it will only survive at a certain boost level? that is basically what i am refuting, but in either of our cases i think it will be difficult to show it is one way or the other really.

also i don't think you necessarily win if you make power with less effort from the engine setup. to do so requires a lot more effort in another form (money).