Turbo Kit Update
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#RealRiceGSR#
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Ubernoober
- Posts: 539
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I don't want to hijack the thread but since it seems to have wandered all over already....
To WD and KAT owners/builders,Has anyone here thought of trying to build a CA legal kit for the S13/S14? I see many kits but as far as I can tell, only Greddy is making the attempt (and dragging their butts at it).I have already done a bit of research and have called the ARB in CA to determine the requirements for legality. I will probably seek legality regardless of where this thread goes, but since I think it would benefit many of us, I offer this up for judgement.
To WD and KAT owners/builders,Has anyone here thought of trying to build a CA legal kit for the S13/S14? I see many kits but as far as I can tell, only Greddy is making the attempt (and dragging their butts at it).I have already done a bit of research and have called the ARB in CA to determine the requirements for legality. I will probably seek legality regardless of where this thread goes, but since I think it would benefit many of us, I offer this up for judgement.
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Ubernoober
- Posts: 539
- Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2004 6:51 pm
The fee to get an EO# from the CA ARB is around 150$ (that was just a phone conversation, so he may have been indicating only one aspect of a larger fee). The big dollars come in during testing.
What I mostly know. These are not set in stone, but should be mostly correct.
The kit must not be user adjustable from the listed specs. So no variable boost controllers, fuel maps, AFC's, or anything else that would allow the user to make changes. If a user adds this afterwards, the user violates smog even if it does not affect the sniffer results.
The kit must not make the car worse than the "baseline" for smog results. The trick here is that the ARB offers a number of different ways to create a "baseline" for a given car. This gives significant flexibility and a little wiggle space in regards to smog output. In addition older models (S13) have a higher baseline anyway. My goal was to produce an S13 kit seeing as how thats what I own.
The kit must not remove factory smog controls. This is a kinda/sorta rule. You can move parts around, but when you do, the re-location becomes part of the EO# and a description of the re-location pops up on the smog computer when they scan the EO# barcode. An example would be re-locating the EGR farther down the pipe to catch cooler exaust. Another would be re-location of the MAF and airbox, or movement of the O2 sensor to put it in the right heatrange on the exaust.
All kit parts must be listed with a description of the components. In other words, the type of MAF used, the model of turbo, type of O2 sensor (if you change it), PSI setpoint of the kit, type of injectors, timing changes, fuel curve changes (FMU, ECU, piggyback), model of any FMU, ECU. You get the idea. The reason for this is to pass the visual inspection of a smog test. Also, if it is re-timed, the tech testing has to know what the base timing is supposed to be if it varies from factory timing.
Some other small sundry things which I may, but most likely do not yet know about.
The kicker is that once you get a kit designed and all the parts arranged, you must go to an ARB research facility or one liscenced by the ARB for testing. I expect they will do cold-start, idle, cruising, dyno, and part-throttle testing. As for the facilities approach, I don't entirely know since I haven't gotten that far yet. The easiest way may be to bring a car, get a baseline smog result, then add the kit and go from there. If any problems come up, the ARB does provide an on-call engineer to help out for free. Neat, huh? The big problem.... the ARB man said costs are expected to be from 5000 to 10000$ for the certification testing. This does not include what you paid for your parts. Additionally, the ARB may ask for a kit of its own (that you supply for free at your own cost) to test on a car of their choice based on the model you are making the kit for. Usually, if you get a "worst case scenario" car (high mileage, weak cat) to pass at the reasearch facility, there is nothing the ARB can find that will cause any hiccups. The ARB man even said that.
As far as time-to-certify... I have no idea. I imagine it depends on where you go and who you talk to. Considering that the ARB answered my call on the second ring and talked to me for more than 30 minutes and was very polite and helpful, either I got lucky, or they really are there to make things go fast and easy for you. From there, you pick the right testing facility and maybe things go fast?
So there. Was that a worthwhile read, or do you want your 5 minutes back?
What I mostly know. These are not set in stone, but should be mostly correct.
The kit must not be user adjustable from the listed specs. So no variable boost controllers, fuel maps, AFC's, or anything else that would allow the user to make changes. If a user adds this afterwards, the user violates smog even if it does not affect the sniffer results.
The kit must not make the car worse than the "baseline" for smog results. The trick here is that the ARB offers a number of different ways to create a "baseline" for a given car. This gives significant flexibility and a little wiggle space in regards to smog output. In addition older models (S13) have a higher baseline anyway. My goal was to produce an S13 kit seeing as how thats what I own.
The kit must not remove factory smog controls. This is a kinda/sorta rule. You can move parts around, but when you do, the re-location becomes part of the EO# and a description of the re-location pops up on the smog computer when they scan the EO# barcode. An example would be re-locating the EGR farther down the pipe to catch cooler exaust. Another would be re-location of the MAF and airbox, or movement of the O2 sensor to put it in the right heatrange on the exaust.
All kit parts must be listed with a description of the components. In other words, the type of MAF used, the model of turbo, type of O2 sensor (if you change it), PSI setpoint of the kit, type of injectors, timing changes, fuel curve changes (FMU, ECU, piggyback), model of any FMU, ECU. You get the idea. The reason for this is to pass the visual inspection of a smog test. Also, if it is re-timed, the tech testing has to know what the base timing is supposed to be if it varies from factory timing.
Some other small sundry things which I may, but most likely do not yet know about.
The kicker is that once you get a kit designed and all the parts arranged, you must go to an ARB research facility or one liscenced by the ARB for testing. I expect they will do cold-start, idle, cruising, dyno, and part-throttle testing. As for the facilities approach, I don't entirely know since I haven't gotten that far yet. The easiest way may be to bring a car, get a baseline smog result, then add the kit and go from there. If any problems come up, the ARB does provide an on-call engineer to help out for free. Neat, huh? The big problem.... the ARB man said costs are expected to be from 5000 to 10000$ for the certification testing. This does not include what you paid for your parts. Additionally, the ARB may ask for a kit of its own (that you supply for free at your own cost) to test on a car of their choice based on the model you are making the kit for. Usually, if you get a "worst case scenario" car (high mileage, weak cat) to pass at the reasearch facility, there is nothing the ARB can find that will cause any hiccups. The ARB man even said that.
As far as time-to-certify... I have no idea. I imagine it depends on where you go and who you talk to. Considering that the ARB answered my call on the second ring and talked to me for more than 30 minutes and was very polite and helpful, either I got lucky, or they really are there to make things go fast and easy for you. From there, you pick the right testing facility and maybe things go fast?
So there. Was that a worthwhile read, or do you want your 5 minutes back?
I'll offer this up for whatever it is worth. A client of mine does emission's testing. I know that they've had various contracts with Ford and and what not. I've seen the various gas analysis computers that they have setup, and they are definitely the real deal.
They are also in similar economic shape as all too many Californian businesses right now. If you get serious about wanting to get your turbo kit legalized, it is most likely possible that I'll be able to get you some reasonable prices on the emission's testing side of it.
They are also in similar economic shape as all too many Californian businesses right now. If you get serious about wanting to get your turbo kit legalized, it is most likely possible that I'll be able to get you some reasonable prices on the emission's testing side of it.
i don't think it's that hard to take off the turbo/parts for smog, that's one big advantage of going kat,i really don't think there's an enough demand for any aftermarket mfr to build a smog/carb legal kit for the 240, sure you can say greddy is making a legal bolt on kit, but i don't think they are legal yet and they've been mentioning their kit for a long *** time...
ya realistically a carb legal kit wont put out the type of power that im interested in anyway, i was planning on boosting the sheit out of the greddy kit anyways 
making it illegal, but its for the pesky five-0, at least if it had carb sitckers they wouldnt tow my car and maybe just right me up to a referee on suspision of my car being illegal.
making it illegal, but its for the pesky five-0, at least if it had carb sitckers they wouldnt tow my car and maybe just right me up to a referee on suspision of my car being illegal.-
Ubernoober
- Posts: 539
- Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2004 6:51 pm
Much like Greddy, the point of the kit isn't about making an additional 70 HP. You could do that with an N2O system for a lot less. The point is having a well designed turbo system that has a CARB EO#. If you want to stretch your legs a bit, that is up to you, but at least you won't have the danger of getting your car crushed every time you get pulled over for speeding. See where I am going with this?On top of this, once you certify with an EO, you are the sole proprietor of that kit in CA. Its much like a patent on use, with some potential of return on investment. Which is why I made a halfhearted prod in the direction of WD since he is a small business owner.Lastly, why break the law when there is a means to have fun legally? You can get smogged anywhere, anytime. You fear no checkpoint (which they do occasionally have in some CA counties), and since I am asking for help you get input into what the kit should or should not have.
[quote=" Ubernoober Much like Greddy, the point of the kit isn't about making an additional 70 HP. You could do that with an N2O system for a lot less. [/quote]yes, i think it is, alot of ppl feel our car is slow, that's why they want boost and you can't really compare a nos system with turbo, nos runs out, need to refill then runs out again
Quote »The point is having a well designed turbo system that has a CARB EO#. If you want to stretch your legs a bit, that is up to you, but at least you won't have the danger of getting your car crushed every time you get pulled over for speeding. See where I am going with this?[/quote]not really, so you mean to tell me that when your car gets pulled over, anything under the hood that's illegal = crushed car? i doubt it, worst case scenario would be to visit bar/state ref, and by the time you get to that date, the turbo would be out of the car, unless you have sr20, then you're majorly screwed
Quote »On top of this, once you certify with an EO, you are the sole proprietor of that kit in CA. Its much like a patent on use, with some potential of return on investment. Which is why I made a halfhearted prod in the direction of WD since he is a small business owner.[/quote]i agree, sole owner of a carb legal system would be the shiznit, however i don't think WD is willing to spend alot of money in doing so, i don't even know the exact amount of the entire process, but i think its really alot of $$$, WD is trying to make ppl happy in the small community of 240 enthusiast that we are...
Quote »Lastly, why break the law when there is a means to have fun legally? [/quote]ideally yes, but going the legal route is $$$
Quote »You can get smogged anywhere, anytime. You fear no checkpoint (which they do occasionally have in some CA counties), and since I am asking for help you get input into what the kit should or should not have.[/quote] not likely, how many ppl do you know that gets pulled over with something illegal in their car = crushed car, i know of no one here in socal, the worst i've seen is someone selling their car/part out because of the sr20, it's either that or putting the ka back in...
all in all, i doubt we'll ever see a carb legal kit as much as we like to see one for the s13, not enough ROI...
Quote »The point is having a well designed turbo system that has a CARB EO#. If you want to stretch your legs a bit, that is up to you, but at least you won't have the danger of getting your car crushed every time you get pulled over for speeding. See where I am going with this?[/quote]not really, so you mean to tell me that when your car gets pulled over, anything under the hood that's illegal = crushed car? i doubt it, worst case scenario would be to visit bar/state ref, and by the time you get to that date, the turbo would be out of the car, unless you have sr20, then you're majorly screwed
Quote »On top of this, once you certify with an EO, you are the sole proprietor of that kit in CA. Its much like a patent on use, with some potential of return on investment. Which is why I made a halfhearted prod in the direction of WD since he is a small business owner.[/quote]i agree, sole owner of a carb legal system would be the shiznit, however i don't think WD is willing to spend alot of money in doing so, i don't even know the exact amount of the entire process, but i think its really alot of $$$, WD is trying to make ppl happy in the small community of 240 enthusiast that we are...
Quote »Lastly, why break the law when there is a means to have fun legally? [/quote]ideally yes, but going the legal route is $$$
Quote »You can get smogged anywhere, anytime. You fear no checkpoint (which they do occasionally have in some CA counties), and since I am asking for help you get input into what the kit should or should not have.[/quote] not likely, how many ppl do you know that gets pulled over with something illegal in their car = crushed car, i know of no one here in socal, the worst i've seen is someone selling their car/part out because of the sr20, it's either that or putting the ka back in...
all in all, i doubt we'll ever see a carb legal kit as much as we like to see one for the s13, not enough ROI...
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WDRacing
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I'm on vacation in Boston, so I don't have any updates. First time I've been home in 5 years.
The kit won't be legal....EVER. To be CARB legal it's very expensive. I believe 5 grand per part comes to mind. So if you guys want a kit that boosts 5 lbs and costs 4grand I can get it done, but why....
When we get to this pint in modifying our cars, you come to the point in life where you basically decided to go beyond the normal rules.
I have no visual inspections in any state I plan on living so...
My kit will pass emmisions on the dyno. Since I have to go through an annual test myself, I have thorough directions on how to pass a test on my website. Its actually not very hard at all. Alot of times simply retarding the timing and cranking the idle will work.
Brian
The kit won't be legal....EVER. To be CARB legal it's very expensive. I believe 5 grand per part comes to mind. So if you guys want a kit that boosts 5 lbs and costs 4grand I can get it done, but why....
When we get to this pint in modifying our cars, you come to the point in life where you basically decided to go beyond the normal rules.
I have no visual inspections in any state I plan on living so...
My kit will pass emmisions on the dyno. Since I have to go through an annual test myself, I have thorough directions on how to pass a test on my website. Its actually not very hard at all. Alot of times simply retarding the timing and cranking the idle will work.
Brian
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WDRacing
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No URL, website won't be done till the first kit is done, that way I have actual pics and info to post up.
On another note, I'm probably selling my house and moving back out to NewEngland withing the next year or so. Shouldn't effect bussiness to much, other then location and shipping charges.
Brian
On another note, I'm probably selling my house and moving back out to NewEngland withing the next year or so. Shouldn't effect bussiness to much, other then location and shipping charges.
Brian
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analcarowner
- Posts: 21
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Hey WD:
I am new to the board, but bought a 240 so I could turbo it. I have always realized the turbo potential of Nissans from my first Pulsar se when I was 16, the G20T I totaled last year, and now my 240.
If you are planning on moving back to boston, I go to school in providence (Johnson & wales), so if you need an eatra car for R&D!
I am new to the board, but bought a 240 so I could turbo it. I have always realized the turbo potential of Nissans from my first Pulsar se when I was 16, the G20T I totaled last year, and now my 240.
If you are planning on moving back to boston, I go to school in providence (Johnson & wales), so if you need an eatra car for R&D!
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WDRacing
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I'm actually switching to an equal length mani right now I believe, I just ordered one from my new distributor so I can inspect it and test her out. He ships next day on all orders, so the Kit should be up and running by this Sunday....Hopefully. If it doesn't get here, then Wednessday next week. The only thing I have left to do is mount the mani and fab the downpipe and Hot pipe...the rest is simply awaiting boost.
Brian
Brian