transmission overheating

Nissan Rogue forum - Includes Nissan Qashqai and Nissan Dualis as well.
88quad
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:44 pm
Car: 2103 Nissan Rogue

transmission overheating

Postby 88quad » Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:24 pm

Had my 2013 Rogue into the dealership for some service recently. Service was unrelated to the transmission. They scanned it and I was told that the transmission had overheated several times in its history. Car currently has about 95k miles on it. It has not overheated in the 2 years I have owned it. As far as I know, if it overheats, the check engine light would be come on and a code would be triggered - possibly p0218, and the car would go into limp mode. What is the typical remedy for an over-heated transmission? What would enable the code to be cleared? My hand held scanner doesn't detect any codes, but I'm sure the dealer has more sophisticated equipment. Should there be stored codes that show the transmission overheated in the past? The service tech pretty much gave my transmission its last rites. They went ahead and did the repair that I went to them for, and called me to tell me that the repair was done. And then added the car drives nicely. I really don't have a transmission issue at the moment, and I want to do all I can to keep it running smoothly. Thanks.


User avatar
VStar650CL
Posts: 2726
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:25 pm
Car: 2013 Nissan Altima 2.5 SL
2004 Nissan Altima 2.5 S

Re: transmission overheating

Postby VStar650CL » Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:45 pm

88quad wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:24 pm
Had my 2013 Rogue into the dealership for some service recently. Service was unrelated to the transmission. They scanned it and I was told that the transmission had overheated several times in its history. Car currently has about 95k miles on it. It has not overheated in the 2 years I have owned it. As far as I know, if it overheats, the check engine light would be come on and a code would be triggered - possibly p0218, and the car would go into limp mode. What is the typical remedy for an over-heated transmission? What would enable the code to be cleared? My hand held scanner doesn't detect any codes, but I'm sure the dealer has more sophisticated equipment. Should there be stored codes that show the transmission overheated in the past? The service tech pretty much gave my transmission its last rites. They went ahead and did the repair that I went to them for, and called me to tell me that the repair was done. And then added the car drives nicely. I really don't have a transmission issue at the moment, and I want to do all I can to keep it running smoothly. Thanks.
Overheating won't turn on the MIL, although a severe overheat will cause the TCM to go "limp" and limit throttle opening very noticeably. Overheat incidents are recorded by the TCM under parameters called CVT-A and CVT-B. If memory serves, A is instances above 200F and B is above 220F. That's how the dealership knew there were prior overheats. If you don't have any misbehavior yet, get a fluid change immediately (preferably two in quick succession to void at least 75% of the old fluid), and get a cooler (and a 4-port beehive if it doesn't already have one) installed to prevent more occurrences. This post has a pretty good discussion about DIYing that if you don't want to buy the Nissan cooler kit (which is admittedly very pricey).

2014+ Rogue Transmission Cooler install - show and tell

88quad
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:44 pm
Car: 2103 Nissan Rogue

Re: transmission overheating

Postby 88quad » Fri Jun 25, 2021 8:58 pm

Thanks for the quick reply. Coincidentally, the service I needed when they told me of the history of overheating was replacement of the TCM. Could a failed TCM still be read for past problems? This car was driven for 6-7 years in the Miami area - hot. The last 2 years are in Atlanta - not quite as hot. I had the transmission fluid changed once - right after I bought it, about 13k miles ago. I've had no known transmission issues in 2+ years, but I've been interested in the cooler idea as a precaution, and what you're telling me has me considering it more seriously. I greatly appreciate your time and insight on this issue.

User avatar
VStar650CL
Posts: 2726
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:25 pm
Car: 2013 Nissan Altima 2.5 SL
2004 Nissan Altima 2.5 S

Re: transmission overheating

Postby VStar650CL » Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:26 pm

You're most welcome. I have no idea why they'd replace your TCM for overheating, although a reprogram may have been in order just on general principles. Are you sure it wasn't the Valve Body and not the TCM? There's a 2016 bulletin for CVT overheating on the '11~'13 Rogue and '14~'15 Rogue Select, which calls for adding a trans cooler kit and replacing the VB if CVT-A is non-zero.

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2016/ ... 6-2280.pdf

In light of that, you should check to see if your beehive is already a 4-port, if so then they already installed the Nissan cooler kit. If they did replace the TCM, I'm pretty sure your assumption that the new one wouldn't have the data is correct. I believe the TCM stores CVT-A and B onboard and not remotely in the valve body, so even a reprogram would wipe the history clean.

88quad
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:44 pm
Car: 2103 Nissan Rogue

Re: transmission overheating

Postby 88quad » Fri Jun 25, 2021 10:04 pm

TCM was replaced because car wasn't starting. Sorry for not being clear on that. The service tech brought up the history of the transmission overheating when he called me to discuss the need to replace the TCM. I'll try to determine if I have the 2 port or 4 port beehive. Thought I read in one of your other posts that the beehive was intended to warm the transmission fluid rather than cool it - possibly I misread that. In any event, thanks again for sharing your knowledge on this.

User avatar
VStar650CL
Posts: 2726
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:25 pm
Car: 2013 Nissan Altima 2.5 SL
2004 Nissan Altima 2.5 S

Re: transmission overheating

Postby VStar650CL » Fri Jun 25, 2021 10:48 pm

88quad wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 10:04 pm
Thought I read in one of your other posts that the beehive was intended to warm the transmission fluid rather than cool it - possibly I misread that. In any event, thanks again for sharing your knowledge on this.
No, you didn't mis-read, but the 2-port beehive only serves as a warmer. The 4-port allows the fluid to be passed on through a separate cooler, either an exchanger in the radiator outlet tank (the way Nissan does it on the gen2) or as a separate radiating cooler (like the OE add-on gen1 kit or an aftermarket cooler). The disadvantage to the heat exchanger in the tank is that if the engine overheats, the tranny will overheat with it. Adding a radiating cooler protects against that, as well as providing additional heat shed under conditions that stress both the engine and CVT, like long, steep hills on a hot day.

88quad
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:44 pm
Car: 2103 Nissan Rogue

Re: transmission overheating

Postby 88quad » Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:20 pm

That makes sense. Earlier I mentioned that they replaced the TCM. Then I started to question my memory. In fact, the IPDM was replaced when I had the no-start condition. Not sure that's too relevant here, but at least maybe the information on previous overheating is still available. And is it correct that I need to first have a 4 port cooler before a separate radiating cooler can be added?

User avatar
VStar650CL
Posts: 2726
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:25 pm
Car: 2013 Nissan Altima 2.5 SL
2004 Nissan Altima 2.5 S

Re: transmission overheating

Postby VStar650CL » Sat Jun 26, 2021 5:09 am

88quad wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:20 pm
That makes sense. Earlier I mentioned that they replaced the TCM. Then I started to question my memory. In fact, the IPDM was replaced when I had the no-start condition. Not sure that's too relevant here, but at least maybe the information on previous overheating is still available. And is it correct that I need to first have a 4 port cooler before a separate radiating cooler can be added?
The IPDM makes much more sense for a no-start, but it wouldn't affect the tranny in any way. Yes, it's correct that if you have a 2-port you need to replace it with a 4 in order to add a cooler. That's why I pointed you to that other thread, @TeamOK just did the exact conversion you'd want to do and can probably point you straight to the right beehive.

D1dad
Posts: 150
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2021 5:38 am
Car: 2021 Nissan Altima SR
2018 Nissan Rogue Midnight
2009 Nissan Altima SL

Re: transmission overheating

Postby D1dad » Sat Jun 26, 2021 7:33 am

Not trying to be a jerk but we’re they quoting you a price for a new tranny? When my cvt went, albeit in an 09 Altima there were no codes. Just a loud whine. I find it hard to believe that the techs saying you’ll be pushing your car before long yet you say you have no symptoms. I’d do what vstar said especially given your climate and start looking for a used cvt with low mileage just in case.

88quad
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:44 pm
Car: 2103 Nissan Rogue

Re: transmission overheating

Postby 88quad » Sat Jun 26, 2021 12:09 pm

I think I'll be going the cooler route. Maybe I've been lucky to have 2+ trouble free years. We don't put a ton of miles on this car. I sometimes take what service writers say with a grain of salt. After his initial comment about the transmission, he told me the car drives nicely. But I wanted to know more about overheating and preventing it. The history of overheating doesn't really square with our experience - so far. I'll get what I can from this car and then move on from Nissan CVTs. I can't convince myself it's a good idea to throw a few thousand bucks at a used transmission of a type that is known to have issues.

User avatar
VStar650CL
Posts: 2726
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:25 pm
Car: 2013 Nissan Altima 2.5 SL
2004 Nissan Altima 2.5 S

Re: transmission overheating

Postby VStar650CL » Sat Jun 26, 2021 12:40 pm

88quad wrote:
Sat Jun 26, 2021 12:09 pm
I think I'll be going the cooler route. Maybe I've been lucky to have 2+ trouble free years. We don't put a ton of miles on this car. I sometimes take what service writers say with a grain of salt. After his initial comment about the transmission, he told me the car drives nicely. But I wanted to know more about overheating and preventing it. The history of overheating doesn't really square with our experience - so far. I'll get what I can from this car and then move on from Nissan CVTs. I can't convince myself it's a good idea to throw a few thousand bucks at a used transmission of a type that is known to have issues.
It's likely there's nothing wrong with your tranny if all you had were a few low level heat-ups. Get a cooler installed and change the fluid every 30K or so, it will probably give you good service for a long time. The upside of CVT's is that with proper care, they're perpetual motion machines. Think about it -- steel belt, steel pulleys, no ablative clutch material in the primary drive to wear out. Keep the metal off the metal and a CVT has no "clutch-limited lifetime" like a regular A/T. You may have seen me post in other places about the prize Murano customer in our shop, pushing 500K miles, got his second engine around 300K, but the original CVT has been everyplace from Miami to Anchorage and still going strong. It will outlive the rest of the car, which is beginning to fall apart. The only secret, fluid changes every 30K like a religion. The OEM's all foisted the CVT's poor reputation on themselves, with absurd maintenance recommendations like "lifetime fluid" that kept the official cost-to-own low but resulted in millions of prematurely busted CVT's. Yours doesn't need to be one of them, just give it fresh fluid and proper cooling.

D1dad
Posts: 150
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2021 5:38 am
Car: 2021 Nissan Altima SR
2018 Nissan Rogue Midnight
2009 Nissan Altima SL

Re: transmission overheating

Postby D1dad » Sun Jun 27, 2021 6:49 am

My 07 Murano is took a college kid from Ohio to Louisville several times per year and Is still going strong with well over 300k. Get yourself a scanguage 2 and check your temps. I just ran my 21 Altima from Ohio to Johnson city through the Cumberland gap and the highest temp I saw was 176 and that was going up the side of a mountain pushing 80. The flashpoint on cvt fluid is twice that. I do change my fluid quite often for safety sake. It doesn’t matter if it’s a Ford, Chevy or Chrysler, all trannys have issues if they aren’t maintained. People who rip on a cvt going out at 100k that weren’t maintained fail to lump the big 3 in that same scenario.

88quad
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:44 pm
Car: 2103 Nissan Rogue

Re: transmission overheating

Postby 88quad » Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:21 pm

I agree with your maintenance comment. Much of the risk of buying a used car is the uncertainty about maintenance. I'm going to have rhe TCM scanned to see what can be learned about past overheating. It's my hope that this cooler set-up will head off any future problems, and give me some peace of mind

88quad
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:44 pm
Car: 2103 Nissan Rogue

Re: transmission overheating

Postby 88quad » Wed Jun 30, 2021 7:15 am

Went to my local garage yesterday to see if they could scan and tell me anything about the history of overheating. They referred me to a local transmission shop. They don't work on CVTs, but scanned it anyway and the following codes came up: P0725 engine speed past, P1722 vehicle speed signal past, P0744 torque converter past, U1000 can comm circuit past. This was not encouraging as it sounds like the recommended repair is usually replace the transmission. I'm not really interested in doing that. Do these codes suggest there is already some degree of damage to the transmission? I'm still interested in the cooler option as it seems like a cost effective way of extending the life of the transmission - at least to some degree. And would none of the problems identified by the codes have triggered a check engine light on the dash? That's what seems a little odd to me. Without a check engine light, unless the car is just running poorly, how would I know of a problem? Thanks.

User avatar
VStar650CL
Posts: 2726
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:25 pm
Car: 2013 Nissan Altima 2.5 SL
2004 Nissan Altima 2.5 S

Re: transmission overheating

Postby VStar650CL » Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:01 am

No worries. Except for the TC code, that stuff is all derivative from problems in other systems, most likely the engine going limp for some reason. If your local shops can't read the CVT-A and CVT-B values with their scanners, then you'll need to visit Nissan. Those values aren't codes, so they need to be read via work support and not scanning for codes.

88quad
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:44 pm
Car: 2103 Nissan Rogue

Re: transmission overheating

Postby 88quad » Tue Jul 06, 2021 1:04 pm

Had a chance to look at an older Rogue that appears to have had the cooler upgrade that the manufacturer offered. This was the 4 port beehive with 2 hoses running side by side into the lower right corner of the radiator. Owner has had no transmission issues with almost 120k miles. If I purchase the aftermrket beehive, do you think it will include torque specs? Seems like these parts often come with little info on installation, and I don't think I've seen it mentioned elsewhere.

User avatar
VStar650CL
Posts: 2726
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:25 pm
Car: 2013 Nissan Altima 2.5 SL
2004 Nissan Altima 2.5 S

Re: transmission overheating

Postby VStar650CL » Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:49 pm

Torque specs will be the same regardless of who makes the beehive, you can pull them from the ESM here. With parts like the beehive that are basically just squishing o-rings, torqueing evenly generally matters much more than the absolute value.

User avatar
phmichel
Posts: 183
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:00 pm
Car: 2013 Nissan Rogue S AWD
2017 Nissan Quest SV

Re: transmission overheating

Postby phmichel » Tue Jul 06, 2021 5:54 pm

VStar650CL wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:26 pm
You're most welcome. I have no idea why they'd replace your TCM for overheating, although a reprogram may have been in order just on general principles. Are you sure it wasn't the Valve Body and not the TCM? There's a 2016 bulletin for CVT overheating on the '11~'13 Rogue and '14~'15 Rogue Select, which calls for adding a trans cooler kit and replacing the VB if CVT-A is non-zero.

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2016/ ... 6-2280.pdf

In light of that, you should check to see if your beehive is already a 4-port, if so then they already installed the Nissan cooler kit. If they did replace the TCM, I'm pretty sure your assumption that the new one wouldn't have the data is correct. I believe the TCM stores CVT-A and B onboard and not remotely in the valve body, so even a reprogram would wipe the history clean.
Did you see that this NTSB tells you NOT to change the filter behind the beehive? Wonder why...

User avatar
VStar650CL
Posts: 2726
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:25 pm
Car: 2013 Nissan Altima 2.5 SL
2004 Nissan Altima 2.5 S

Re: transmission overheating

Postby VStar650CL » Tue Jul 06, 2021 6:57 pm

Yes, but I've never understood that. I don't know of anyone who had problems after changing it, with or without a cooler. :confused:

88quad
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:44 pm
Car: 2103 Nissan Rogue

Re: transmission overheating

Postby 88quad » Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:16 am

Bleeding the cooling system is part of this job too, correct?

User avatar
VStar650CL
Posts: 2726
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:25 pm
Car: 2013 Nissan Altima 2.5 SL
2004 Nissan Altima 2.5 S

Re: transmission overheating

Postby VStar650CL » Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:49 am

Yes, installing the 4-port requires disconnecting the coolant lines to the existing 2-port beehive. If you pinch off the lines the coolant loss will be minimal, but a bleed will still be necessary after topping off.

88quad
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:44 pm
Car: 2103 Nissan Rogue

Re: transmission overheating

Postby 88quad » Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:56 am

Thanks. You have been a tremendous help.

User avatar
phmichel
Posts: 183
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:00 pm
Car: 2013 Nissan Rogue S AWD
2017 Nissan Quest SV

Re: transmission overheating

Postby phmichel » Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:44 am

VStar650CL wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:45 pm
88quad wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:24 pm
Had my 2013 Rogue into the dealership for some service recently. Service was unrelated to the transmission. They scanned it and I was told that the transmission had overheated several times in its history. Car currently has about 95k miles on it. It has not overheated in the 2 years I have owned it. As far as I know, if it overheats, the check engine light would be come on and a code would be triggered - possibly p0218, and the car would go into limp mode. What is the typical remedy for an over-heated transmission? What would enable the code to be cleared? My hand held scanner doesn't detect any codes, but I'm sure the dealer has more sophisticated equipment. Should there be stored codes that show the transmission overheated in the past? The service tech pretty much gave my transmission its last rites. They went ahead and did the repair that I went to them for, and called me to tell me that the repair was done. And then added the car drives nicely. I really don't have a transmission issue at the moment, and I want to do all I can to keep it running smoothly. Thanks.
Overheating won't turn on the MIL, although a severe overheat will cause the TCM to go "limp" and limit throttle opening very noticeably. Overheat incidents are recorded by the TCM under parameters called CVT-A and CVT-B. If memory serves, A is instances above 200F and B is above 220F. That's how the dealership knew there were prior overheats. If you don't have any misbehavior yet, get a fluid change immediately (preferably two in quick succession to void at least 75% of the old fluid), and get a cooler (and a 4-port beehive if it doesn't already have one) installed to prevent more occurrences. This post has a pretty good discussion about DIYing that if you don't want to buy the Nissan cooler kit (which is admittedly very pricey).

2014+ Rogue Transmission Cooler install - show and tell
This guy does a pretty good job of explaining Nissan CVT basics and specific issues regarding Nissans, although I'm a bit leery of guy who would disassemble a CVT on the ground. :) (I guess he tore it apart as a training aid, not to rebuild it...)

https://youtu.be/_fBbNKUSvuU

User avatar
VStar650CL
Posts: 2726
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:25 pm
Car: 2013 Nissan Altima 2.5 SL
2004 Nissan Altima 2.5 S

Re: transmission overheating

Postby VStar650CL » Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:43 am

phmichel wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:44 am
This guy does a pretty good job of explaining Nissan CVT basics and specific issues regarding Nissans, although I'm a bit leery of guy who would disassemble a CVT on the ground. :) (I guess he tore it apart as a training aid, not to rebuild it...)
Pretty good, but one thing the guy has in common with most of the other vids out there is a misunderstanding of the horsepower relationship. The fact is, the 6-cyl CVT's will tolerate a lot more abuse than the 4-cyls and don't fail as quickly when maintenance is absent. The tranny he took apart probably didn't fail at all, it's likely the car was scrapped for other reasons. There was no telltale scoring on the belt or pulleys even though the fluid was clearly neglected. I've seen Murano and Pathy units make nearly 200K on zero fluid changes, and you won't see that with an Altima or Sentra no matter how gently it's driven. The problem seems to be the smaller cross section of the 4-cyl belts, which beats the fluid up faster. The higher horsepower of the V6 contributes little or nothing to the failure profile.

The second thing I'd note is that only the earlier generation CVT's aren't rebuildable, around late '16 Nissan came out with belt-and-pulley kits for the 4-cyl RE0F10's in the gen5 Altima and has since added several others. So most of the late model stuff is rebuildable.

The CVT's real enemies have been the same all along, shearing load, heat, and overfilling. Regular fluid changes protect against shearing, a cooler and a healthy radiator protect against heat, and overfilling is the ultimate "avoidable tragedy". Treat it right if you want it to last, like anything else on the car.

User avatar
VStar650CL
Posts: 2726
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:25 pm
Car: 2013 Nissan Altima 2.5 SL
2004 Nissan Altima 2.5 S

Re: transmission overheating

Postby VStar650CL » Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:04 pm

Resurrecting this thread because we happened to have a 6-cyl CVT (early Pathy) and a 4-cyl being rebuilt right beside one another. It seemed like a good opportunity to show what I mean about cross-sections and surface-area that cause the 4-cyl belts to beat up the fluid faster.

6-cyl

20210907_133749.jpg
4-cyl

20210907_133851.jpg

macgiver
Posts: 1064
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2007 10:21 am

Re: transmission overheating

Postby macgiver » Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:11 pm

VStar can you substantiate a rumor I heard when I was shopping for my Juke , ended up w/ '14 SV AWD .
I would have been OK with a FWD , but left them out of my searches because of this " the AWD CVT's are much more 'stout' / tougher than the FWD CVT's in Jukes ". And was ALSO suggested AWD units were similar in 'tough' with CVT's for 6cyl Nissans like Altima's/ Maxima's ????????
Please lay some of that knowledge you possess on me here VStar , thank you . If you can E X P A N D on will be much appreciated !!!

User avatar
VStar650CL
Posts: 2726
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:25 pm
Car: 2013 Nissan Altima 2.5 SL
2004 Nissan Altima 2.5 S

Re: transmission overheating

Postby VStar650CL » Tue Sep 07, 2021 2:29 pm

Many of the AWD's basically use the 6-cyl chain setup, so by and large that's true (however, I don't exactly have a list of the exceptions). IMHO the vectored AWD on the Juke was one of the absolute finest AWD setups ever constructed by anybody, and I have no idea why Nissan never extended it to other models. Lucky you, what a hoot to drive!

macgiver
Posts: 1064
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2007 10:21 am

Re: transmission overheating

Postby macgiver » Tue Sep 07, 2021 2:32 pm

" Vectored " , yes , 6 cyl CHAIN !!!!!! WOW ....... " Finest ".... , huh , you just made my F'n day :chuckle:

alexspeed
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2021 9:45 pm
Car: 2009 Nissan Murano SL

Re: transmission overheating

Postby alexspeed » Tue Sep 07, 2021 4:22 pm

There is a lot of reasons why your car transmission overheat. You may want to check this article for an answer:

https://www.aamcocolorado.com/reasons-y ... erheating/

D1dad
Posts: 150
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2021 5:38 am
Car: 2021 Nissan Altima SR
2018 Nissan Rogue Midnight
2009 Nissan Altima SL

Re: transmission overheating

Postby D1dad » Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:27 am

Owning an 09 Altima 2.5 and seeing the belt is all the more reason to make me wanna do a drain and fill every 10k. I have cases of eneos eco so why not. I just did back to back drain and fills, separated by around 100 miles and the trans sounds way quieter and smoother than it did using valvoline. Granted the trans should be beefier for a pathfinder than an Altima.


Return to “Rogue Forum”