Toyota problem....I don't understand.

[370Z/28]

I don't understand why somebody won't come out and tell people how to safely stop their vehicles! I'm sure Toyota won't, because that would be admitting guilt. I hear people talk about what to do and I just cringe! Hell no...you don't want to shut the car off when it is going 90mph (I didn't know a Prius would go that fast). Then you would have no power brakes or steering and your steering wheel would probably lock. Why won't somebody come out and instruct the public on how to safely stop their car, e.i. put it in nuetral and/or gear it down, blow up the POS, contact an attorney.....sue the crap out of Toyota.

That would be my procedure.

[Poyzinous]

I've made comments everywhere about what to do if that were to happen. If the car is accelerating uncontrolably, throw it in neutral. Its incredibly simple. Sure, the engine will redline for a little bit, but it wont harm it, ultimately. When you've reached a stop, like normal, shut off the engine, and check your floor mat and pedal. Then continue, if you want to. 6 years ago I was Driving an IS300. Floor mat got stuck under the pedal.

[kboy79]

I think the biggest problem is that the drivers are panicking. It may seem easy for us to say just put it in neutral and shut the car off, but we don't know how we would act if we are in that situation. I think the first recorded incident was the state trooper who was driving w/ his family. Even though the trooper has had a lot of training in certain driving conditions, he still didn't do the "common sense" procedures.

It just seems so easy to put it in nutrual, but who knows what some people were thinking.

[370Z/28]

But, I will hear normal people in normal conversations, just like this morning on a radio show. People don't know. It doesn't matter if they are panicked or not...they just don't know what to do. We are all car people. We do. 911 doesn't even know the proper procedure to tell people.

Poyz....the engine won't blow?

[joe603]

What really needs to happen is Toyota needs to fix the ECU problem. Simple but expensive.

[kboy79]

Yeah, from the 911 recordings I heard, I didn't hear many operators telling them to put it in nutral or shut it off. I could be wrong since we only hear what they put on tv. But I haven't heard any operators tell them to shut it off.

Well apparantly, the operator did tell this driver to put it in neutral but he just ignored her...

"Neibert told Sikes after the CHP caught up with him to shift to neutral but the driver shook his head no. Sikes told reporters he didn't go into neutral because he worried the car would flip."

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/...l?x=0

[zozoka1212]

I agree with Joe. I think this is the Ecu issue. I don't know how familiar you guys are with the Prius but the newer ones have know shift lever. It is all electronic. So that might be a problem.

It is strange how people minds working under extreme stress. You just can't see straight. I had a chance spending some time with an industrial accident investigator few years back. Some of the accidents are so easily avoidable but when people are in that stage can't think about it. They panic and from that point it gets worse. I mean if you have enough time to call and talk to 911 you should have enough time to switch to neutral.

Why 911 operators are so dumb and try to keep telling them step on the brake instead of putting in neutral. Well that's how well they trained. They have to follow certain protocoll and most not smart enough to diviate from it. I mean you think somebody would call in before they try the damn brake?

About the shut off the car.

You can shut the car off. Yes you loose you power assist on the steering and brake but still better than acelerating if anything else fail. Like putting it in neutral.

Also you not loosing them right away. The system is charged. you have few pumps of brake left. Use it generously. With our push bottom start all you have to do is either holding the bottom for 3 seconds to cut the power or push it quickly 2 times ( have to remember no brake) and you still have all the power. You'll even have the radio and you can even stay on the phone with 911.

But will people remember all this at the time when needed. It is up to your mind. Obviously a little practise would help to remeber.

This will sink Toyota's ship a little. Depends how they'll handle it from now it might be the end of the "Toyota is the safest car" era. Although some other cars have this issue also I think since the Lexus accident with the off duty cop in California it is picked up by the media. Now they are in the hand of the media.

Audi and Saab was in this situation in the 80's. Audi almost ended up in bankrupcy and Saab had to buy back bunch of cars because they could not fix them quick enough. Not sure if they did it here too or just in Europe.

[Poyzinous]

I dont know about dem toyoters, but nissan does some rigorous testing. They run their engines AT redline for a half hour in testing. When we do burnouts, thats a good 3 to 5 seconds of redlining. The time it takes to slow down from 60 or 80mph to a stop is all the motor would be revving to redline if you were to throw it into neutral. So no, no harm to your motor.

[zozoka1212]

Here is a list of the worst from NHTSA.

[Poyzinous]

i dont see any nissan infiniti vehicles there zozo

[audtatious]

I saw somewhere that the whole Nissan lineup had a total number of 86 complaints.

[zozoka1212]

They are not there because Nissan did the homework. LOL

I know there is an article where they compared the Toyota's problem with our G and they showed how it supposed to be. That was the G baby.

On the other hand I was actually surprised how quite they are about the Volvo S40. It is pretty common car at least here around me.

I don't know man. Car makers should go back to the drawing board and start fresh. Leave all these crap out of the car. Lets give the controll back to where it belongs the driver. Take the learning ECU and Drive by Wire and throw it in the garbage. Just give me a switch with 3-5 setting on it and let me pick the map for the ECU how I am going to drive next.

[370Z/28]

I don't know man. Car makers should go back to the drawing board and start fresh. Leave all these crap out of the car. Lets give the controll back to where it belongs the driver. Take the learning ECU and Drive by Wire and throw it in the garbage. Just give me a switch with 3-5 setting on it and let me pick the map for the ECU how I am going to drive next.

Amen to that brother! I don't want any car that can park itself or Intellegent cruise control or any of that crap! Skilled drivers and less destractions is what the world needs more of.

[Poyzinous]

the key is "skilled drivers"whether its a 66 GTO or a 2010 Maybach with every tech gizmo ever, a good driver can do fine, with or without the extras. And lots of the technologies are in place for fuel economy and emissions purposes

[telcoman]

I don't understand why somebody won't come out and tell people how to safely stop their vehicles! I'm sure Toyota won't, because that would be admitting guilt. I hear people talk about what to do and I just cringe! Hell no...you don't want to shut the car off when it is going 90mph (I didn't know a Prius would go that fast). Then you would have no power brakes or steering and your steering wheel would probably lock. Why won't somebody come out and instruct the public on how to safely stop their car, e.i. put it in nuetral and/or gear it down, blow up the POS, contact an attorney.....sue the crap out of Toyota.

That would be my procedure.

If it were ever to happen to me I would just press in the clutch & put it in neutral

Telcoman

[gwoods]

I dont know about dem toyoters, but nissan does some rigorous testing. They run their engines AT redline for a half hour in testing. When we do burnouts, thats a good 3 to 5 seconds of redlining. The time it takes to slow down from 60 or 80mph to a stop is all the motor would be revving to redline if you were to throw it into neutral. So no, no harm to your motor.

Is that the Nissan testing or just how I drive mine every single day

[4wheelkillr]

Mr. Skeptic here: i don't believe the newest prius guy for a second. This happened within a week or so of going to the dealer for the problem and they said that car's not on the list. So he goes to a long empty highway and calls 911 and the news chopper comes out there and the CHP make it to him and catches up with him, pulls in front of him to help him stop and when he got below 50mph, THEN he shuts the car off...Give me a break. It sounds all staged to me.

Why is it that all of this is happening now?Why do these problems only begin to surface in mass-quantities when it's brought to public attention, thru the media, and when all the class-action suits have had time to get warmed up?

It's not about vehicle knowledge. We all know how to shift a car into neutral, or put it in park, or turn the car off, or slam on the brakes. There's NO WAY a little Prius can overpower the brakes.

Check out this article from Caranddriver.com http://www.caranddriver.com/fe..._dept

They tested a few vehicles' brakes under FULL Throttle and EVERY vehicle they tested the brakes including those of a 540hp Roush Mustang were able to stop the car under full throttle. Don't tell me your crappy little camry, or lexus, or prius wouldn't stop...that's just garbage!

UGH!!

[Kendahl]

Shifting to neutral should be step two.

Step one should to to put both feet on the brake pedal and shove as hard as possible. Don't let up until the car has stopped and you have killed the engine. Shift into neutral while you are slowing down. Car & Driver did some tests which showed that stopping distances at full throttle aren't much longer than distances at idle. That tells me that shifting to neutral is a good idea, but not necessary to stop the car.

Although almost everyone drives daily, very few people know much about how their cars work or how to anything beyond putt around at a sedate speed. To most, there is little difference between a car and a refrigerator or a lawn mower.

[LuckyLuke]

I was reading somewhere that if you go over certain speed.. you can't put it in neutral... it would lock out...

[kboy79]

Mr. Skeptic here: i don't believe the newest prius guy for a second. This happened within a week or so of going to the dealer for the problem and they said that car's not on the list. So he goes to a long empty highway and calls 911 and the news chopper comes out there and the CHP make it to him and catches up with him, pulls in front of him to help him stop and when he got below 50mph, THEN he shuts the car off...Give me a break. It sounds all staged to me.

What he said...

[smockers83]

One problem that many people forget when saying hit the brakes is that as you increase your throttle, the less vacuum you have in the system for your brakes, thus the no brakes at WOT.

Someone suggested not turning the car off but letting it redline and come to a stop and blow up. Why? If you were able to turn the car off, your engine wouldn't be blowing up and I'm pretty sure the implications of cutting power are much better than just letting it redline.

[kmckis1029]

my friend drives a toyota and i literally did a in car driving lesson and showed her how to put the car in neutral while driving. i made her practice a couple times so its in her musule memory and so she trust that it wont hurt the car.

then i also explained that neutral can be used to help her from hydroplaning... im happy to report she used what i taught her and avoided two hydroplaning accidents in the GA rain yesterday on I75...

my point is people arent taught these driving skills anymore cause there are so many saftey systems that do this kind of stuff automaticly, like our VDC and ABS in general.

i mean who really expects their accellerator to get stuck? of all things that can go wrong... big FAIL by toyota

[Poyzinous]

strange how pretty much everyone but toyota (Nissan/infiniti does it) has an override. If at full throttle you slam on the brakes, the ecm understands it and cuts the throttle. Thats why its kinda hard to do a powerbrake burnout in a nissan vehicle. you'd think toyota would do that. And yea, that Prius story is fake.

[370Z/28]

That was very nice of you. You are a good friend.

[zozoka1212]

Yeap that's all it takes. Little practice.

Many cars have issues I think this is inflated much more since Toyota in people's mind a safest car on the road in general.

I don't know about the Prius guy faking it. I think the driver is at age 65. You never know. In general once something comes out in the media people have tendency to fake it for sure. But how can we judge which one is fake which one isn't?

[kmckis1029]

whats the point of faking the story though

[pwlorraine]

whats the point of faking the story though

My first thought was to call "shenanigans" on this but the trooper said he saw the brake lights on and smelt the pads burning. Like to see results of the analysis. I can't imagine anyone with half a brain doing this on purpose and expecting not to be discovered.

The prius does have the inductive braking system that pulls power back into the battery system - the engine brakes the car. Are the disk brakes designed to stop the car without help of the inductive braking system? I'd hope so. All of the vehicle throttle and brake commands pass through the software system. On the prius chat groups they say that in normal operation the friction brakes aren't expected to be used until car speed is below 7mph.

I'm not sure that chest thumping on Nissan's part is the right response here. I would bet this is the result of something "unexpected" rather than negligence and as car software systems become steadily more complicated this will happen more often. Until the specific cause is understood and the design philosophy implications are understood I would not be surprised to see this hitting other manufacturers. I would expect some form of master override control whereby conflicting signals from the throttle and brake are always won by the brake system.

On aircraft, fly-by-wire systems are argued to be safer than traditional hydraulic control systems - more opportunities for redundant control paths to the actuators as wires are easier to route than hydraulic lines. Control and efficiency are increased as computers can make faster decisions, keep unstable systems stable. But aircraft systems are usually 3x redundant. What do cars do?

Peter
Modified by pwlorraine at 9:48 AM 3/11/2010

[Kendahl]

I finally had time to listen to the entire 23 minute recording of the call to 911.

He might have staged the incident, but I think it is more likely that he had a legitimate problem and became too terrified to think logically. Definitely not test pilot material.

His phone may have been on the seat or in his lap much of the time. If so, that would explain why he didn't respond to the 911 operator. From time to time, I heard some beeps which would be consistent with his clutching the phone and inadvertently pressing buttons. Fear causes you to lose fine motor control.

Apparently he did try the brakes enough to get them hot. However, this doesn't mean that he shoved hard enough on the pedal to overpower the engine. At highway speeds, even a light brake application for several minutes will overheat the brakes.

Most people never brake hard. Recently, Car & Driver put three mothers-in-law in Minis for two days of instruction on an autocross course and a race track. It took repeated encouragement to get one of them to brake hard enough to activate the ABS. She then told her instructor, "Now, the pedal's broken. Happy?"

Similarly, most people never accelerate hard. During the Audi unintended acceleration fiasco, drivers claimed that the car's engine suddenly developed prodigious power. I suspect it was the first time in their lives that they experienced a car at full throttle in a low gear.

The Car & Driver article is available on their web site. It is worth reading for the ladies' comments. They offer an insight into the chasm between the way most people drive and what a car is capable of in competent hands.

[Kendahl]

.... in normal operation the friction brakes aren't expected to be used until car speed is below 7mph.

Toyota would prefer you to press as lightly as possible on the brake pedal. To begin with, even regenerative braking is less efficient than coasting. There is a limit to how much current can be pushed into the battery. When you brake hard, you exceed this limit and the car is forced to use the friction brakes, too. However, nothing stops you from using the brakes like a racing driver approaching a slow corner at the end of a long straight.

[zozoka1212]

Kendahl well said.

Be onest with you guys I still would take a Toyota/ Lexus over some of the competitors. To me this isn't as big deal. What a chance 1 in a mil? Even if it comes the fix seems easy to move the lever to neutral.

Some car companies have bigger issues than this with a lot worse chance/ more possibility to happen. Limp mode on some cars. No intention to hurt but some europian cars come in my mind first with limp mode.