total seal piston rings?

[SPIRONIUM]

a friend told me about these, apparently a lot of american car guys have been using these for a while with success. They supposedly can produce a good amount of HP and they generally are supposed to have better sealing than OEM style piston rings

they do not have the cut out like normal piston rings. They are completely circular, no cut out that is put there so that you can stretch the ring to put onto the piston. How you install them? i have no idea. Some kind of special tool maybe?

Can anyone shed any more info about these?

[sxseguy]

The Total Seal gapless rings are a two piece design. They install just like normal rings, but have a second, thin overlay ring that goes on top of the ring with it's gap staggered, so there's no gap.

http://www.totalseal.com/TechP...Rings

I'd like to know if someone has had a good experience with these. I like the idea.

[SPIRONIUM]

hey they actually have them for the ka application. someones gotta try these with a stock rebuild or something to see if there are any benefits

[pregmantis]

some engine builders swear by them and others say they are junk. They do have em for the ka's but I forgot the part#. I have been using the gapless(top) for a while but have nothing to com pare them with.

[Chezedik]

I am going to go ahead and resurrect this dead thread, to ask where to get them?

BTW, the part number is MO664 for the gapless top ring for the KA24DE.

[nzmoman]

are these supposed to be more or less boost friendly? does anybody know

[Reno]

i know nothing about rings but i'd suspect it raises compression...?

[Chezedik]

Depends. If you have a relatively high compression or an extra thick gasket you may end up with a possibility of detonation. The ring gap allows for a little loss of pressure.

On the other hand, they will make more power at a lower boost setting. So, it is a good thing in that respect.

They can be very boost friendly, but the tune needs to be better, because there is less room for error.

[nzmoman]

thanks, I think I'll stay away from those.

[Chezedik]

The advantages need to be fully understood before you swear them off.

Let's say that you are using a KA24DE w/ 8psi, you will make roughly 245whp. Now let's say that you do the exact same setup, with Total Seal you might make another 10whp. You will have better vacuum, longer engine life, and lower oil temps.

I know that given my worn out block, I will probably use them, since I will not need to overbore, just slide these on the stock pistons, and my compression will be phenominal.

[pr240sx]

Now....where to get them.....in their website the only place that sells this for our KA is in Australia.Theres got to be someplace else!!

And I plan to run them on a stock piston, low boost (no more than 12 psi) KA...

[pmkls2]

Childs & Albert makes 1 piece zero gap rings that are much better than the total seal design. I havent researched if they make them for a KA application but I swear by them personally. On the 1 piece rings the second ring has a tapered face and the ends of the ring are stepped and overlap each other. Basically all that gapless rings do is increase the pumping efficiency of the pistons which is obviously a good thing. There honestly arent any downsides to using them except for the extra cost for a set. These rings dont actually raise the compression ratio as that is just a measure of cylinder volume between bdc and tdc. What the rings do is seal the cylinder better and raise the cylinder pressure. Like chezedik said if you are running boost the increased cylinder pressure can lead to detonation IF you dont tune for it, but you can boost away as it isnt the same as increasing the compression ratio. A lot of drag racers use these types of rings in supercharged or sprayed engines. I will look into availability of the C&A rings for a KA engine myself as I am planning a rebuild soon and would like to use them myself. Just my 2 cents.

[Chezedik]

I looked into their catalog, and got nothing. I emailed them and am waiting to hear back. I will let you all know. I am looking into them, because they are a good alternative to boring an engine that has an excessive amount of ring end gap, since there will be no ring gap.

[pmkls2]

Well the gapless rings are definately better, but if you cant find them you can always buy some file-fit ones to keep your end gap within specs. I looked at the C&A site last night myself and didnt see a set for our application. However, it looks like you can order any size bore for individual rings. All that you need to know is the width of all 3 rings which I havent found out yet. Let me know what they say if they reply to your email. FYI, standard bore in inches is 3.504 just in case you didnt know that.

[Chezedik]

When I did the conversion I had 3.503, but I may have a rounding error. I will check.

Yep, I get 3.053937008. So 3.504 more or less. Anyway, if they will make them, and they are more affordable than Total Seal, then we may have something. I thought that the top ring is 1.5mm thick, is that right? I think it's 1.5, 1.5, 2.8. Anyone know?

[pr240sx]

Standard size is 89mm OR 3.504and verifying your rings thickness you are correct

Well, is there no direct application, there got to be another engine with similar specs.

[Chezedik]

There is a direct app from total seal, but I am on the phone with them and am going to ask if I can get 3.505" ring to make up for cyl wear.

[Chezedik]

They say that they cannot do .001". But they did confirm my thinking that my old worn out motor can use these without an overbore, much like how the rednecks use a .001" ring to seal for excessive wear (no, the irony is not lost). The reason is that my end gap is either at tolerance or close to excessive. I have to have the head off anyway to change gaskets, and so I thought I would just change the rings while I was at it.

BTW, if anyone needs a Cometic HG, I have a .120" gasket for sale. I know it is not what you guys usually do. But if one of you is about to go turbo, this is great for a reduction in compression.

[pr240sx]

from where you are going to buy yours?Any US dealer?I think that Total Seal rings can compensate for those tolerances. I am doing the exact same thing, a full refresh minus pistons and rods.

[Chezedik]

I am deciding if I even want to do that, or just swap in an SR. I am getting tired of working on this motor. Total Seal tells me that it will make up for those tolerances, but I would hate to do all of that work to find out otherwise. I guess if they were in the ballpark, I could just sell the engine.

[pr240sx]

you are contacting them (total seal) directly or via a reseller?Who sells these rings in the US?

[Thursday]

sounds like there is more of a chance of breaking rings with these gapless rings.

From the factory, the 2nd ring end-gap is larger than the first to allow blow by instead of the compression getting stuck between the two compression rings and possibly reverting upward. If the second compression end gap is larger than the first then compression can travel downward easily. This is somewhat theoretical but I believe if rings without a gap are better in every way then the OEM manufacturers would be using them as they generally use high quality components.

[neverlift]

I too wonder, how about a top ring being gapless and the second have say a standard gap?

whats up with your brother man we ned him over on hybridka

[Chezedik]

sounds like there is more of a chance of breaking rings with these gapless rings.

From the factory, the 2nd ring end-gap is larger than the first to allow blow by instead of the compression getting stuck between the two compression rings and possibly reverting upward. If the second compression end gap is larger than the first then compression can travel downward easily. This is somewhat theoretical but I believe if rings without a gap are better in every way then the OEM manufacturers would be using them as they generally use high quality components.

They are significantly more expensive and both Child's and Albert and Total Seal carry patents. So they would either have to be purchased from them, or royalties paid to them. But you are thinking, and that is good. Normally speaking, I agree with your logic about the OEMs, but I think we can all name at least one example of a superior product that is not used by the OEMs due to cost restraints over the entire line. These are better rings, but OEMs are satisfactory, and much less expensive, that is why they do not get used.

Further, on the Nissan KA24DE piston your compression rings are identically sized at 1.5mm and the oil control ring is 2.8mm. So it is inconsequential the placement of the rings, except that one will be a scraper ring, and one will not, since the head of the piston is slightly smaller than the skirt.

Finally, I am speaking purely in the theoretical, since I am having issues with excessive blow-by, I can almost certainly trace it to a worn cyl or worn rings. In either case, I know that my end gap is either out of spec or close to it. Since the rings are somewhat sprung, I know that as rings or cyl's wear, the ring will project itself outward and close the gap. This will cause the overall ring end gap to increase. So, if I have worn rings, or worn cyl's, I SHOULD be able to use a gapless ring to achieve a more consistant compression across cyl, without overboring (which I will not be doing, if this engine comes out, an SR is going in). Unless my cyl's are egg shaped (elliptical wear pattern), which is unlikely given the previous wear theory, the Total seal rings should work.

Would you not agree?

BTW, I want to clarify that this is in no way a flame, just a civilized debate.

[pr240sx]

I personally think that the best way to refresh an engine that does not need any boring and honning is by using gapless (or expanding) rings.Remember, the cylinder is within specs but rings will expand up to a point where it canot compensate. A gapless ring can expand past this point and reduce blowby futher. I dont know if TotalSeal sells only top rings or a full set. Anyway, I think that gapless is the way to go!

[Chezedik]

For the KA they sell a top ring and a 2nd ring set.

[Thursday]

i was simply bringing up a point that possibly gapless rings will not last as long as standard rings with an end-gap.

it is the same as saying forged rods with no oil holes are not geared for endurance as much as OEM rods, they are simply higher performance.

basically my point is gapless rings probably aren't better in every way compared to oem style rings, but you guys brought up some valid points about raising the compression on worn cylinder walls etc.

[Chezedik]

Another good point. But I think that the mindset of someone who builds a performance engine does not have as high a priority for reliability as someone who just wants a daily driver. As I believe I pointed out earlier, the manufacturers have to cater to everyone, not just me. They find a good money saving alternative to this design, and they run with it.

No, if nothing else, gapless rings are worse in at least one way, cost. As far as the reliability aspect, Total seal claims them to be longer lasting. Now, I wasn't born yesterday, and I know that they may not be everything that they claim. But for my purposes of reviving a worn out engine before a swap, in order to turbo, they just might work. And if I can get 100k out of them, or something near, I will be very happy.

[pr240sx]

For the KA they sell a top ring and a 2nd ring set.

Again......where?

[Chezedik]

You can get them from Jegs, Total Seal directly, or any number of Total Seal distributors. They go for about $150 USD (I would guess PR uses USD).