torque to stretch bolts?!@#$%

[gwoods]

I am still thinking about how to get my Altima up and running again. I really think I might be screwing up the bolts. I am following the procedure for torqueing them but not getting a seal.

What would be the bad thing about trying some hardened bolts that are the same thread/pitch? with a new gasket?

I also think I'm going to try the Permaflex copper on the next head gasket I try.

[ezb57e]

Please explain "not getting a seal".
The bolt inspection specs are in the ESM.
They pass or they don't.
Are you using an angle method?

[gwoods]

New bolts new gasket every time. Head has 30-60 psi currently is flat.

[frapjap]

Are you sure the head isn't warped? Did you stick a straight edge up to it to confirm? Might want to have it milled by a shop.

[gwoods]

#1> Head blew slowly in May its a 1999 my original head had a stuck lifter on #1 so I did not reuse that head.


#2> I have a 2001 complete motor in my garage that I pulled from a car after it ate the timing chain and lost a rod cap on #3. I took this head to a machine shop had it decked, cleaned and inspected. Unfortunately either due to my unsuccessful 248/248 exhaust cam swap OR due to the rod failure previously this motor had a bad valve on #1 and I had zero compression on #1 with good compression across the head.

#3> Rather than mess with the 2001 head I went to the junkyard found a 2001 that died a horrible rear end collision death and compression tested. 160-170 across the head cold motor looked very original (125k miles). Upon disassembly not only good compression but NISSAN head gasket and bolts so probably original. I did not have this head decked because it was on a motor with good compression and it was straight via straight edge and feeler gauge and the rocking on known to be flat surface test. This is the head that is on the car now.

I'd like to eliminate the torque to stretch bolts.

In the past 12 months I have done head gaskets on 3 other 99-2001 Altima's with zero issues for other people. This must be KA24DE Karma for helping people grrrrr

In my mind either I have ruined the threads in the block or I'm not torqueing the bolts correctly. I have chased the block threads and they are good and clean. I'm torqueing per the FSM that is on NICO or from Felpro's guide I have tried it both ways. My other thought is what if my torque wrench is off? but with the last step being 90 degrees it wouldn't really matter much?


Thank you all for the help I am really frustrated with this car and need to sell it so the Miata can take its spot in the garage and get its turbo installed.

[ezb57e]

Id do a leak down test. Where is it leaking to?
If the compression is that low you should be able to see it into other cylinders, crankcase, coolant passages etc.
Hard to believe your having so much trouble.
It aint rocket science here.

[gwoods]

I will do a leak down test and let you know. What do you think about ditching the torque to stretch bolts for grade 10 and making torqueing the head a two step process? first step 22lb 2nd step 59lb?

I'm also having a hard time believing all the trouble.

[gwoods]

I'm betting leak down comes out the head/block joint. If the rings were bad pouring a couple cap fulls of mobil 1 down the spark plug hole would make the numbers jump up a little bit.

[WDRacing]

Why not just go with studs?

You could use grade 8 or better bolts and probably be fine. I never used stretch bolts on aircraft so...

Just make it a 3 step seating process. Let the head and hardware rest inbetween torques.

[gwoods]

ARP makes a stud set for the KA24DE ARP 202-4304 They are $133 shipped might be worth it!

[gwoods]

Part of the problem, head gasket is $50, studs are $133 and not certain will fix it. I bought a 100k mile runner KA24DE from a yard for $380 and swapping this motor is cake.

[gwoods]

I did the leak down test and have leakage across 3-4 if I pull all the plugs air into #3 blasts out the spark plug hole of #4 and visa versa. Leakage in every cylinder otherwise is not horrible. I think we can all agree that my problem is at the head gasket??

#1>

#2>



#3>


#4>



I also did the leak down on my 1992 Miata with a 88k mile 1990 motor that has 178-185 psi compression and had surprisingly similar results? The Miata runs great no smoke no oil use.

[gwoods]

I ordered another Felpro head gasket and bolt set. I will have the head decked.

If this doesn't fix it I am going to swap the motor.

[PapaSmurf2k3]

Yeah I'd say go for the ARP studs. I love those damn things.
I don't think I've ever done a head gasket without upgrading to them. Something seems to go awry every time with a job and I have to pull the head again. After that, the studs pay for themselves because they're re-usable.

[gwoods]

Thanks papa I was interested in the arp studs but found out they are also torque to stretch. They do have a measure alb limit but they stretch too. I searched locally but everything was either too weak or not threaded enough (2" of thread vs 3.75")

I have not surfaced this head before so between that and the copper seal it should seal.

What do you all think is the best way to do the bolts? Step three is to back them out completely. What if I just loosen them a little bit?

I have both a 90 degree step five and 65 pound step five. I have tried both on this motor which do you think is better. I like the torque rating

[gwoods]

Here is what it looked like disassembled. I chased all the threads

[gwoods]

I feel much better just left the headshop. The head is warped in the middle by .024 unsurfaceable

I'll pull another this weekend

[frapjap]

Ouch!
Bummer that you had to buy a few head bolts and head gaskets to find that out. Bring a straight edge along to the yard with you!

[SX APPEAL]

Occam's Razor...

[gwoods]

I used a straight edge at home and put it on a flat table and rocked it is bulged up in the middle .024. It was never ever going to seal. I feel pretty stupid (rightly so) and have once again enforced the always take the head to the shop before months of frustration.

and FrapJap you nailed it you were right warped head.

[PapaSmurf2k3]

You laid out the option of an entire engine swap. Might be worth it to just not d!ck around with it anymore.

[gwoods]

If I were keeping it I would pull the motor and stroke it but as soon as its running and perfect I'm going to sell it. Too many cars.

[gwoods]

Limited time to wrench but I found a good head (car in the yard with both airbags popped so you know it came in running). I still had the shop clean and surface it.



I have 175-180 across the head! COLD

[PapaSmurf2k3]

Score!

[float_6969]

That's some good compression there!

[gwoods]

Man it has excellent compression but runs horrible.

I have checked and double checked the timing at the marks on the upper/lower chain.
I have checked the distributor and the rotor is lined up at #1 at TDC #1.
I have swapped the distributor

It sounds like a vacuum leak.

I think its the lifters. I dropped it off at the machine shop to get shaved with the lifters installed. I went to remove them and the owner was like its cool leave them in and I'll take care of it. I got it back and four of the lifter shims did not have oil passages drilled in them any longer? I tried using the lifters and shims from a 2001 head and it would not run at all.

Should I use the cams from the car I pulled the head from and see if it runs?

below is a video please click listen and suggest

[float_6969]

That is an ATROCIOUS vac leak somewhere. EGR?

[WDRacing]

Possibly the worst leak I've ever heard...lol!

[gwoods]

Thank you guys!

If you keep on the gas it runs but pops and backfires... I have a complete but disassembled KA24DE in the garage I will swap EGR and see if that fixes it.

[PapaSmurf2k3]

yeah check the brake booster line for cracks, splits, etc. That's pretty bad man!