Too bad we can't call in airstrikes on "ignorant"

[AZhitman]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/0 ... index.html

Let's not fool ourselves - While we're debating the "mistreatment" of Muslim Americans, which is admittedly overblown and sensationalized, let's pause and take a look at the REAL abhorrent abuses that happen EVERY DAY in other places.

Rather than bemoaning the "plight" of someone who's afforded all the legal and Constitutional rights (and all other benefits) of this great country, perhaps we could ALL (including those who left that culture to pursue a dream in America) lift our voices and speak out for those who get maimed, raped, beaten, humiliated, and murdered in archaic, barbaric, and cowardly patriarchal cultures.


<flame suit on>

[R/T Hemi]

I can appreciate the outrage on abusive applications of Sharia law. The thing to remember is that it's a cultural thing, much like our strapping down male infants and mutilating their genitals in the name of circumcision. To us, it's a normal part of life, to other cultures, it's barbaric. What do you suggest besides outrage over these incidents?

[bigbadberry3]

It's hard to approach something completely unbiased and also to look in the mirror.

[AZhitman]

The thing to remember is that it's a cultural thing, much like our strapping down male infants and mutilating their genitals in the name of circumcision. To us, it's a normal part of life, to other cultures, it's barbaric.

I'm appreciative of the decision my parents made when I was born. I can't imagine that 14-year old girl appreciates the decision of the Imam.

Without getting into a debate on circumcision, there's some (arguable) health benefits... I see no such benefit to slowly slashing a 14-year old rape victim into ribbons until she dies in front of her weeping mother.

No, I need not look in the mirror here. I can unabashedly point my finger at these men and label them: Barbarians, cowards, and unworthy of the breath in their lungs.

While some are boo-hooing about bureaucratic hassles in getting a mosque approved in Podunkville, legions of innocent young girls are suffering a fate far worse than death - rape, abuse, betrayal, shame, abandonment, and ultimately, execution.

What do I suggest? I suggest you do whatever suits you, since I'm not convinced of the sincerity of your question (forgive me if I'm misperceiving, but the tone sounds like a challenge, rather than a legitimate inquiry).

As for me, I'll be doing some research to find out how I can help.

[szh]

This was a fundamentally wrong thing to do.

Unfortunately, it happens far too often in many of those countries - my former one too.

There are some people trying to make a difference and change things, and they have changed, but still have a LONG way to go.

Damn it.

Z

[IBCoupe]

Rather than bemoaning the "plight" of someone who's afforded all the legal and Constitutional rights (and all other benefits) of this great country...

Who's bemoaning the plight? The only thing I see is Americans arguing in favor of upholding those Constitutional rights.

I mean, it's fine and dandy to say that they've got Constitutional rights, but that doesn't mean vigilance is out of the question to assure that they have the opportunity to enjoy those rights.

What happened in the article is terrible. But it's on the other side of the planet, and condemning it doesn't mean we can't condemn lesser injustices on this side of the globe.

[AZhitman]

There's "bemoaning". Hell we just had a thread on it the other day.

I'm not advocating "letting up" on our responsibilities here. We absolutely owe it to ourselves (and our "example" we set worldwide) to stay vigilant.

Who knows... Hell, I don't know. Maybe what I'm looking for is (as an example) for the people in Murfreesboro to point a finger, too - Perhaps to say, "Despite these hassles, we have it good in America... please remember those we left behind." :

[IBCoupe]

"People in Murfreesboro" = Opposed or in favor of the Mosque?

[AZhitman]

Those building the mosque.

I'm sure those opposing the mosque would agree, despite their potentially misguided opinions of Islam, that the contents of that article are tragic.

[IBCoupe]

Eh, I don't like that.

1. Why should they have to point to people who have it worse before asserting their Constitutionally-assured rights?
2. Now that you've pointed it out, what meaning would it be if they actually did say what you want them to say?

That's like yelling at Obama to put on an American flag lapel pin. Look at that, he did. Are you any more sure about his patriotism? Of course not, because IT'S A DAMNED LAPEL PIN. People are either grateful or they're ingrateful, but forcing them to say thank you doesn't assure that they're the former.

If a person needs to say "thank you" in order for you to get out of their way on their rights, they're going to say "thank you." Or, being that they're only trying to exercise their rights, they're going to be grown-ups and say, "Get the frack out of my way, Murfreesboro. We're not hurting anybody, you bigoted pricks."

p.s. What I really wanted Obama to do was put on three lapel pins, and then say, "See? I'm three times as patriotic as these douchebags. Vote for me!"

[AZhitman]

Eh, I don't like that.

I knew you wouldn't. Thankfully, what you "like" doesn't concern me.

I never said, "before". I didn't say "force", either. I can post what I'd like to see happen, just as you can critique it.

It's not up to me to define "what meaning it would [sic] be". The meaning it would have would be in the ear of the beholder... Perhaps it might create some solidarity between the pro- and anti- mosque factions. Perhaps it might draw additional attention to the crisis. Maybe it'd resonate with real people with real feelings and increase awareness.

I could give a damn if they're thankful or not - They're entitled to the same rights that you and I are. I didn't call for a "thank you". I called for a reality check.

p.s. Lapelgate was years ago.

[IBCoupe]

I could give a damn if they're thankful or not - They're entitled to the same rights that you and I are. I didn't call for a "thank you". I called for a reality check.

I understand what you asked for, and I'm just saying: what happens over there doesn't change what's happening over here. It's all the same reality.

p.s. Lapelgate was years ago.

I'm still pissed off at the absurdity of it. I can really hold a grudge when I want to.

[R/T Hemi]

I find it a little ironic that you adopt a very liberal view towards worldwide injustice, Hitman, yet choose to deny those within our borders the same benefits of your outrage towards domestic civil evils. That outrage is the birth of the hallmark of a good liberal soul. However, your "screw the mosque people because there's worse injustices elsewhere in the world" thrust keeps you from winning any serious liberal awards this week.

[srellim234]

Title hijack:

If we could call in airstrikes on "ignorant" we'd be bombing Sacramento, CA and Washington, D.C.. Maybe even central NJ.

You may now return to your regular discussion.

[AZhitman]

I find it a little ironic that you adopt a very liberal view towards worldwide injustice, Hitman, yet choose to deny those within our borders the same benefits of your outrage towards domestic civil evils. That outrage is the birth of the hallmark of a good liberal soul. However, your "screw the mosque people because there's worse injustices elsewhere in the world" thrust keeps you from winning any serious liberal awards this week.

My view isn't "liberal". Liberals wring their hands and whine.

I don't "choose to deny others" anything. Where did you read that? No one here is getting raped and lashed to death, so with all due respect, please make sure you comprehend me before you assume things.

"Screw the mosque people"? Where did I say that?

Did you not read what I said in the other thread about Murfreesboro?

Seriously, dude - You're not even in the same zipcode on this one. Find a point and present a position, but don't make s*** up, project it onto me, and then criticize that flawed perception as if it's reality.

[themadscientist]

[IBCoupe]

Two can play this game.

[R/T Hemi]

I don't "choose to deny others" anything. Where did you read that? No one here is getting raped and lashed to death, so with all due respect, please make sure you comprehend me before you assume things.

Probably right here.

Let's not fool ourselves - While we're debating the "mistreatment" of Muslim Americans, which is admittedly overblown and sensationalized, let's pause and take a look at the REAL abhorrent abuses that happen EVERY DAY in other places.

Then there was...

"Screw the mosque people"? Where did I say that?

From the same sentence I quoted above.

Seriously, dude - You're not even in the same zipcode on this one. Find a point and present a position, but don't make s*** up, project it onto me, and then criticize that flawed perception as if it's reality.

My good man, I'm not only in the correct zip code, I'm at the same address. Your emphasis on the word "mistreatment" appears to mock the death threats they have received, even the destruction of the equipment on the site of the new mosque. Let's keep the goal posts right where they are on this one.

[IBCoupe]

^ +1

[AZhitman]

Whatever. If that's the case, let's offer them the opportunity to swap places with Hena Akhter. No takers? Wonder why?

...typical liberals, preferring bickering over minutiae and self-exaltation. R/T, you're off-base. Again, I never said those things, and your perception is clouded. You see what you want to see. Let me restate: I never said the things you accuse me of saying.

If it weren't for that head injury you seem to be recovering from, or your lack of comprehension of the English language, you'd realize from prior posts that I don't oppose "building mosques". I support their right to do what they want - always have. If the Muslims here "get it", why can't you? Maybe they're a tad sharper - or maybe they don't have an anti-American ax to grind. Hmmm? Or are you gonna cast aspersions on them too?

So, again, I challenge you two: Point out where I'm advocating DENYING anyone anything, or where I said "screw the mosque people"?

You'll fail. But I'll wait....

[R/T Hemi]

Hitman, I quoted what you said. My mistake might have been assuming you understood what you wrote, but I pretty clearly capture what you meant. I merely said, and you took exception with, your argument was "Screw the mosque people, their plight isn't all that bad because somewhere in some dark corner of the world, some other travesty has occurred." My interpretation is totally congruent with what you wrote.

So let's dissect at what you wrote, and the emphasis you provided in doing so.

Let's not fool ourselves - While we're debating the "mistreatment" of Muslim Americans, which is admittedly overblown and sensationalized, let's pause and take a look at the REAL abhorrent abuses that happen EVERY DAY in other places.

Note the reference to "mistreatment" being overblown and sensationalized. Death threats are overblown or sensationalized? Note your next sentence where you referred to other "REAL" travesties as if the others are imaginary. And you accuse me of not comprehending? Most of us apply normal meanings to the written word when we read it, and that's pretty much what I've done here.

[IBCoupe]

Whatever. If that's the case, let's offer them the opportunity to swap places with Hena Akhter. No takers? Wonder why?

[AZhitman]

Note the reference to "mistreatment" being overblown and sensationalized.

It is.

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-02-09/livi ... =PM:LIVING
http://articles.cnn.com/2010-08-30/livi ... =PM:LIVING

There's plenty more like that. You don't want to read them, because they don't jive with your worldview. It's ok.

Death threats are overblown or sensationalized?

The number and seriousness are. Yes. Absolutely.

Wanna know how many death threats I've personally received? More than the Murfreesboro mosque builders. MORE. People say stupid things. They're frustrated. It's CHANGE. LET ME BE CLEAR: They're wrong, and they're stupid. But the effect is overblown and sensationalized.

Note your next sentence where you referred to other "REAL" travesties as if the others are imaginary. And you accuse me of not comprehending?

Actually, it says "REAL abhorrent abuses". Like lashing someone to shreds. Not REAL abhorrent abuses, like calling someone a camel-jockey or vandalizing equipment or burning a cross on their lawn.

Let me know when you find something substantively wrong, improper, offensive, dishonest, or hypocritical in what I wrote. Until then, you're just being a distraction.

In fact, one could get the impression that perhaps you're fearful of dealing with young Ms. Akhter's situation... or, worse yet, somehow accept that her condition is acceptable. *I* wouldn't opine as such, and I'd defend you if someone did - but that was the point of my original post (before it got hijacked).

p.s. Isaac, your drive-by potshots are stunningly telco-ish and remarkably out of context. But you go, boy.

EDIT - Foreign truck is foreign.

[IBCoupe]

I was actually following TMS's lead.

I maintain: you're setting up a false choice, and telling people that they shouldn't whine so loud because there are some people in other places with worse conditions. That's what you're doing. That's all the context there is. False choice is false.

p.s. "Yah bert mah truk wuz immigrated legal-like! Plus, lookit all dem murkin flags!"

[R/T Hemi]

Hitman, your argument is not unlike a teenager explaining to his parents that his 88 mph speeding ticket isn't bad because another guy had was cited for 93 - And the parent buying it. I'm not. I think you've been proven wrong.

[AZhitman]

...telling people that they shouldn't whine so loud because there are some people in other places with worse conditions.

<sigh> You may perceive that - I don't have any control over how you read things. But that's not what I was saying at all.

Telling us to be cognizant of the reality that while there's wrong discrimination and mistreatment here, there's others who'd probably love the opportunity to *just* be shunned... I'm encouraging us to not ignore those who are aren't being spoken for because we think we can't make a difference... and to those who are being discriminated against, keep fighting the good fight.

R/T, you've "proven" nothing. Perhaps the definition of "proof" is a challenge as well?

Let me educate you, though: IF I was defending the harassers and discriminators (Mom, Dad, getting cited for 88 isn't THAT big a deal...), based on the argument that others elsewhere exhibit FAR worse behavior (...because so and so was doing 93), then your simplistic allegory would work.

I'm not, so It doesn't.

I can USE your silly little analogy though, so you don't feel like Charlie Brown with a rock in your trick-or-treat bag:

Let's not ignore the people doing 40+ mph OVER the limit, just because they're harder to catch / represent a greater danger to enforcers / are less frequent... In fact, let's focus MORE of our enforcement efforts on them, since they represent a greater risk to public safety. Meanwhile, use discretion for 5mph over, cite as needed, and be realistic.

Side note: In the Murfreesboro case, the community was victimized as well... See, the morons who vandalized the equipment actually hurt the equipment OWNERS (who are non-Muslims).

[srellim234]

Although I haven't participated in this thread until now (except for my brief title hijack post), it doesn't mean I haven't followed it. I agree for the most part with you, AZ, with the exception of your second paragraph in your OP. If you had left it out completely it would have been OK. Your choice of the first two words, "Rather than" indicated that there shouldn't be room in peoples' radar to address BOTH issues.

The issue in the United States falls under the jurisdiction of our sovereign nation and therefore, to some extent, our control. Our laws and legal systems apply.

The issue overseas is definitely abhorrent but is in a foreign sovereign nation. It is not a situation we can apply OUR Constitution and laws to. It's under the jurisdiction of someone else's constitution and laws.

I fully agree with you that it deserves our attention and some type of personal action but there is room in our lives to address both situations. That is something that your choice of words in your OP indicated to me you felt shouldn't happen. Although you may not think so, it honestly did sound to me like one of those "you shouldn't address it or care because somewhere else in the world others are worse off" type of statements when you originally presented it.

[AZhitman]

I'll buy that. If I hadn't made it clear SINCE then, you;re right, that wasn't my intention. "Rather" was a poor choice of words, but it came closest to conveying what I meant.

"While we are..." would have been a wiser (and more accurate choice).

[R/T Hemi]

Getting you to admit you're wrong is like pulling teeth, eh Hitman?

Are the Ad hominem attacks necessary? I'm not going to that level and I'd appreciate it if you didn't.

[IBCoupe]

I'll buy that. If I hadn't made it clear SINCE then, you;re right, that wasn't my intention. "Rather" was a poor choice of words, but it came closest to conveying what I meant.

"While we are..." would have been a wiser (and more accurate choice).

Greg, I can appreciate that you might have been trying to make it clear SINCE then, but look at your first response to me. In one paragraph, to your credit, you say that this doesn't mean we should stop being vigilant.

But in the next paraphraph you said you wanted the "people in Murfreesboro" (read: Muslims?) to basically be grateful that we're not a bunch of bass-ackward pricks, at least not to the degree shown in that article. My question remains: why?

And that still indicated to me that you were finding a line of comparison between the two things, which is absolutely unnecessary. While I'm perfectly willing to believe you meant nothing nefarious by the unnecessary comparison, and that you were simply falling prey to a false dichotomy, I might suspect a lesser man of islamophobic intent in presenting it the way you did.

That last bit wasn't meant to say anything but this: be careful about the way you present this kind of thing in public. It wouldn't be hard for people who don't know you to ascribe an uncharacteristic intent that might put you in an unfavorable light (or in a favorable light to unfavorable people). Nothing more than advice from a friend.