Ticking noise at startup till warm

[Infinitiguy19]

I have a 1993 Infiniti Q45 with a VH45DE (obliously). The engine was rebuilt at 30K miles in 1997, The Prevous Owner hydrolocked the engine by going though a big puddle of water. The #7 rod was replaced and all the pistons were re ringed, and brand new gaskets all around. The under plenum hoses were replaced in 2005 along with the injectors and rails and harness.

A little more than a year ago I start up the car and I get a rough startup/idle and it idled real low when in gear (500 RPM's) and it did'nt want to move back (I had to open the thottle for it to move).

The oil light stays on for no more than 2 seconds at cold start up and the pan is not dented.

Throttle Body is clean as a whistle and was replaced with a clean one Yesterday.

Oil changed every 3000 miles or less.

Engine mounts and Trans mounts have less than 100K on them.

AAC valve fairly clean.

Oil fill hole:

The ticking noise appears more when the engine is cold and never when the car is hot.

So I am guessing oil related...What can I do to fix this?

Also the engine idles between 625-675 what would cause that?

No intake or vacuum leaks there is an exhaust leak that I need to address though.

If you need any more info let me know.

[Chrispy300]

Probably HLA's.

AFAIK the VH doesn't have a AAC (acessory air control), it has a IACV (idle air control valve).

If you have a low idle speed then I would be looking at vac leaks, incorrectly set TPS, faulty or incorrectly set IACV or a dead wax expansion cold idle control in the throttle.

Have you had a chance to hook up consult?

[Infinitiguy19]

Sorry I forgot to include some Youtube videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PUaaxBR6s0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEeY8FHJKvk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ug72wbOqKsQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weyBEMxROsE

Thanks for the help so far.

I plan to clean out the EGR and use BG Quick Clean today during my oil change.

AFAIK the VH doesn't have a AAC (acessory air control), it has a IACV (idle air control valve).

You are right on that.

Have you had a chance to hook up consult?

I own a laptop Consult, is there anything I should look at inparticular?

I have some ECUtalk and OBD Scan Tech Nissan Logs if you want to see.

Probably HLA's.

Hopefully BG Quick clean will fix that on the first time (I have my fingers crossed).

If you have a low idle speed then I would be looking at vac leaks, incorrectly set TPS, faulty or incorrectly set IACV or a dead wax expansion cold idle control in the throttle.

No vacuum leaks.

TPS is set at .44 volts anc the connector is fairly clean.

The IACV valve is set at 1 turn I think.

The wax valve AKA Fast Idle Cam works fine on the new TB, I tested it my self and none of the screws have not been molested.

[qsiguy]

Why don't you try tweaking the IACV while the engine is running (or not) to get it dialed in where you want it? I had to do that after doing my plenum job and cleaning the IACV. I don't know how many turns mine is set at but does it matter?

[Q45tech]

Was the engine sent back to Japan or did some incompetent dealer tech do the work.

I know it would be almost impossible to meet new rings specs on a worn engine. Just the honing of cylinders, bearing [selection] etc could not be done at any dealership I know of.

I have a friend who builds race engines that run $35,000> $60,000 each he took one look at some heads and crank I sent him and he said no thanks and he has every precision system machine known to man.

Every engine we have reringed, rebearinged, new pistons never was quite perfect again. They didn't blow up for years but not oem perfect.

Even though the optional +- parts are listed in FSM Impossible to get them outside the Japanese factory.

[Infinitiguy19]

Why don't you try tweaking the IACV while the engine is running (or not) to get it dialed in where you want it? I had to do that after doing my plenum job and cleaning the IACV. I don't know how many turns mine is set at but does it matter?

I will do that after I clean the EGR.

Was the engine sent back to Japan or did some incompetent dealer tech do the work.

I know it would be almost impossible to meet new rings specs on a worn engine. Just the honing of cylinders, bearing [selection] etc could not be done at any dealership I know of.

I have a friend who builds race engines that run $35,000> $60,000 each he took one look at some heads and crank I sent him and he said no thanks and he has every precision system machine known to man.

Every engine we have re-ringed, rebearinged, new pistons never was quite perfect again. They didn't blow up for years but not oem perfect.

Even though the optional +- parts are listed in FSM Impossible to get them outside the Japanese factory.

I am not sure if you met every senior tech in the USA but who is to say the person(s) was/were incompetent. I don't mean any disrespect but I want to feel that the person working on my car was very competent.

I have read some scary stuff that you have posted but this I think tops the list so far. It sounds like your saying these are one time use engine then you have to pull a mortgage just to rebuild the engine.

If I were to somehow get the tools would T3 be able to rebuild a motor?

Has T3 tried to get Japanese tools?

And to clarify, We are talking about a barely noticible stumble/miss at idle and then again at ~2000 RPM's. So I am betting its the EGR then once cleaned all will be well.

Then for the oil problems I will try BG Quick Clean and if that fails MMO is next.

Thanks again for all the help and informartion.
Modified by Paul Wall at 6:44 PM 9/28/2009

[XJared]

Was the engine sent back to Japan or did some incompetent dealer tech do the work.

I know it would be almost impossible to meet new rings specs on a worn engine. Just the honing of cylinders, bearing [selection] etc could not be done at any dealership I know of.

I have a friend who builds race engines that run $35,000> $60,000 each he took one look at some heads and crank I sent him and he said no thanks and he has every precision system machine known to man.

Every engine we have reringed, rebearinged, new pistons never was quite perfect again. They didn't blow up for years but not oem perfect.

Even though the optional +- parts are listed in FSM Impossible to get them outside the Japanese factory.

You obviously have some sort of bias. Not all dealership techs are incompetent, there are plenty out there capable of doing a proper rebuild.

[qship96]

I would be VERY concerned why the{LOW} oil pressure lamp stays on for up to 2 seconds at startup......even at 234K miles, mine goes "off" instantly as car starts, even in freezing weather cold startups

[XJared]

You didn't mention oil pressure, just the light. Have you actually had an oil pressure gauge on it during start up and warm up?

[Infinitiguy19]

I would be VERY concerned why the{LOW} oil pressure lamp stays on for up to 2 seconds at startup......even at 234K miles, mine goes "off" instantly as car starts, even in freezing weather cold startups

This is at the top of my list.

But there is a video of what I am talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PUaaxBR6s0

[elwesso]

This is at the top of my list.

But there is a video of what I am talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PUaaxBR6s0

that might stay on a touch longer than my Q does but I dont think its anything to be alarmed about.

[T45]

I wouldn't worry about that either. It will take a sec to get pressure up to std, especially when cold. Always use a good filter (nissan, bosch, K&N, etc) with an anti-drainback valve and you'll be ok, along with recommended oil viscosity for your climate.

[Infinitiguy19]

Well I did BG 109 and so far so good, The oil light goes away faster sometimes and other times its not even on.

So I will keep at it with BG 109 AKA BG Quick Clean.

O yeah the ticking noise is also reduced if not gone. But I can still hear it with a mechanics stethascope on the Drivers side (Left side) valve cover ONLY. Nothing on the passenger side (Right side at all).

[Infinitiguy19]

Could HLA's, bad timing chain tensioners or VVT solinoids cause:

Semi loud idle (Not Silent as a mouse)

Rough till ~2000 RPM's then no shake above ~2000 RPM's

Not being able to redline at 6900 RPM's but rater redling at 6775 RPM's?

Semi noticible stumble at idle

Somewhat of a knocking noise (Some say rod knock, I say HLA's) when starting up after stting for sometimes more than a day

I am willing to do what it takes but I just need a quiet and smooth idling car.

[Infinitiguy19]

OK the above symptoms are still there as far as I know.

Also when I unplug the MAF when the car is running at warm idle with the OEM 1993 Q45 ECU installed the car stalls.

On the 1994 Q45 ECU California edition it does not stall at warm idle. Does this mean the ECU is at fault or I have a vacuum leak somewhere?

But the car runs rough all the time, and by rough I mean not a silky smooth idle but not a bad cylinder either.

Dead serious here: The person that helps me solve this problem gets any part from the list below $50 but pays shipping only!!!

[Q45tech]

I am biased because I know all the 5 Master Techs at the 5 ATL Metro Infiniti Dealers. There is one who is qualified but in a discussion with him he stated they do not have any engine rebuilding tools and only done a bearing or ring slap in the 20 years he has worked there. They are head or long block changers at best.

When you start dealing with TEN THOUSANTHS tolerance and 1/2 gram balances................you enter into precision machine shops.

I know 3 in ATL but you don't want to pay the $150 per hour times 50-100 hours.

Lots of differnce in oem factory built lasting 20-25 years and good enough [us techs] lasting 5 years.

We always recommend inspected [before buying] JDM junkyard takeouts. You can visit all 3 sources in a single day in metro ATL and select the best out of usually 6-10 available combined.Then you bull all covers, replace chain guides, reseal valve covers stopping to return in defectives if necessary. Easy to spot overheats by HLA gaskets, KS, other signs.

You can buy a JDM takeout for less than 10 shop hours work.

[Infinitiguy19]

Well in my case how would I find out if it was sent to Japan?

My engine is still good beside a little HLA problem which i am confident BG 109 will fix.

But $7500-$15,000 just for getting back to OEM specs on a VH might be a little out there for some.

[qship96]

Infiniti would not send your engine back to japan to rebuild then send back to be installed into your car, they would have your local dealer either install a short or long block if needed while under warranty.

[Infinitiguy19]

Was the engine sent back to Japan or did some incompetent dealer tech do the work.

So why would Tech as that above?

I am guessing Hydrolocking is not a warranty thing and the previous owners (Lady) insurance covered it.

[Infinitiguy19]

Could a ticking HLA cause any idle problems?

The slight idle vibration exists from 500 RPM's to 1700 RPM's. And trust me whether the engine is under load or not (In gear) the vibration is still there.

[Q45tech]

The vibration could be caused by an imbalance in power output between cylinders. Why Nissan specs that compression test should not deviate more than 14 psi between cylinders!

Why one does a series of accurate averaged Power Balances with Consult and compares them to a series of repeative accurate cold hot compression tests. To determine whether rings or valves or valve dirt or plugs, coils, injectors are at fault in giving the different power outputs from each cylinder.

Just like a tire and engine vibration frequency changes with rpm. The intensity gets covered up as the rpm increases and the 4 torque peaks per rev get closer in time.

If you think about it a 14 psi variance is pretty tight spec ~ 10% of running compression so if one cylinder were down 3-4 lb/ft from it's 37.5 peak.

What chanch without instrumentation does a person have to sense and pinpoint 3-4 out of 300.

Humans can sense vibration but are worthless at frequency or precise amplitude.

[XJared]

If you think about it a 14 psi variance is pretty tight spec ~ 10% of running compression so if one cylinder were down 3-4 lb/ft from it's 37.5 peak.

Running compression is quite a bit different from cranking compression. Nissan's cranking compression specs are give at open throttle, warm. If you have ever checked, cranking compression is a far cry from running compression if checked properly, they cover different failures/issues.

[Infinitiguy19]

How would one check running compression on a VH45DE?

Cranking compression covers:

valves, piston rings (and HLA?)

Power Balance Test covers:

injectors, coils, spark plugs

That above should cover most issues right?

[Infinitiguy19]

Just to put my mind at ease HLA's are the only thing that tick till the vehicle is warm right?

And what could case the engine not to redline at 6900 RPMs and only go to 6700 RPMs?

Basically the ticking noise is coming from ONE valve cover and gets quieter after the car is warmed up.

I have tried BG 109 on two separate oil changes (1 can each) and the noise is still there. Well to be fair the second oil change was half a can. I will try the below though:

We never seen problems at even 450,000 miles as long as the oil was changed every 90 days.BG Quick clean for Engines is designed to clean the oil/lifters- HLA/lower rings of varnish which must be drained 15 miles after it gets hot at idle [under 2000 rpm].

Do an oil + filter change refill with $1 oil + BG cleaner, then idle to 176F then increase rpm to 2,000 for 3-5 minutes, then drain change filter and put in new good oil + filter. This works 90% of time if not repeat the same proceedure immediately.

Oil + filters are cheap compared to the labor of just changing 1 HLA.

The fit is so precise that you often need to strip the head and oven heat and do the work while head is 200F in an oil bath......not pretty.

[speedeast]

This is an oil issue. Either you are low, which I assume you checked the dipstick, or oil is not getting "pumped" where it needs to be. According to your location you're right behind me, and it's pretty damn cold here, so you should be running a 10-30 or thinner oil. If you haven't changed it in a while, I would do that. Oil pumps in these cars are good, but don't last forever. Not reaching 6900 rpms CAN be directly linked to an oil issue, especially a low or low pressure oil issue.
Modified by speedeast at 1:43 AM 1/17/2010

[Infinitiguy19]

This is an oil issue. Either you are low, which I assume you checked the dipstick, or oil is not getting "pumped" where it needs to be.

Oil level is always good but I really do need to do a oil pressure test because that will rule out a lot.

it's pretty damn cold here, so you should be running a 10-30 or thinner oil. If you haven't changed it in a while, I would do that. Oil pumps in these cars are good, but don't last forever.

I change it every 3000 miles but mostly sooner than that, I can't vouch for the previous owner though. The engine was rebuilt like I said and this all started over night really. And I use 10W-30 but I may switch to 0W-30 or 40.

Not reaching 6900 rpms CAN be directly linked to an oil issue, especially a low or low pressure oil issue. You may need a new oil pump, don't rule that out... but I would measure the oil pressure somehow and get it off your conscience.

It is rare according to Q45tech that a VH45DE will need a oil pump replaced, I think T3 only changed ONE out and that was due to SEVERE NEGLECT.

I am sorry but how oil problems cause the "not reaching redline" problem?Please be as descriptive as possible.

EDIT: After looking at your build thread I see you know your way around the VH. Let me know when you have that running because I want to know how quiet it is. If its not quiet enough to not be heard or even know the motor is running then you did the job right.

How much did the build set you back?
Modified by Paul Wall at 2:03 AM 1/17/2010

[Q45tech]

Running compression is checked with an expensive metal washer like sensor that fits between spark plug and head with wires that run along side and out the coil assembly.

My old fashioned sensors have been replaced with fiber optic units for less problems with spark pickup:http://www.optrand.com/fliers/calplug_060201.pdf

http://www.piezocryst.com/pressure_sensors.php

Many 2007+ vehicles actually have special systems that use spark plug ionization to measure the after firing pressures.http://delphi.com/manufacturer...nized/

These can easily be adapted to Q45 coils and a standalone separate computer for logging.

[Chrispy300]

No big dents in the bottom of the sump?

[qship96]

Just once, spend the coin and put Mobil ow-40 in it and see if it helps cure the issue- you can run that oil for 6000 miles to help offset the price if you want to, it can EASILY go the distance.

[Infinitiguy19]

Running compression is checked with an expensive metal washer like sensor that fits between spark plug and head with wires that run along side and out the coil assembly.

My old fashioned sensors have been replaced with fiber optic units for less problems with spark pickup:http://www.optrand.com/fliers/calplug_060201.pdf

http://www.piezocryst.com/pressure_sensors.php

Many 2007+ vehicles actually have special systems that use spark plug ionization to measure the after firing pressures.http://delphi.com/manufacturer...nized/

These can easily be adapted to Q45 coils and a standalone separate computer for logging.

That is much better than the old fashion ones you would find at harbor freight for a couple of bucks.

No big dents in the bottom of the sump?

Nope just rusty

Just once, spend the coin and put Mobil ow-40 in it and see if it helps cure the issue- you can run that oil for 6000 miles to help offset the price if you want to, it can EASILY go the distance.

Well at $8/qt that seems like a lot, what about Mobil One 0W-30?