The White Devil Oil System (Big Problems, Read the end result)

[turbo90]

It's really not that bad, unless you parallel park all the time. At speed the steering is better for me, heavier yes, but I like it.

What about a two stage dry sump pump mounted in the P/S pump spot to scavenge turbo oil, and pump P/S fluid!?

[WDRacing]

Please Read this before attempting any mods like this...

My turbo is toast, the seals are completly ruined and the shaft play is extremely ugly. My turbine and compressor blades have contacted the housings. Not enough to require new ones, but enough to damage them.

The oil pump apparently pulled to much oil out of the turbo and it had basically no lube for 1.5 weeks of me beating on the car basically non-stop.

So it looks like gravity is the best method so far. I'll keep plugging away at alterior idea's though. Now I'm waiting on a rebuild kit to arrive. For the record, they are only 100 bucks through Saab Performance. But the downtime sucks alot.

WD

[pr240sx]

That sucks big time!!I wonder if any metal shaving from the turbo are on the head/camshaft area. You should check that right away.I wonder how a pump could suck soo much oil in order to starvate the turbo from oil. Thats way too weird. What pump (model) are were you using?Time for a rebuild, check for metal particles in the oil and in the head!!I still making plans to run a separate oiling circuit for the turbo with oil regulation. Maybe 2 quarts aprox.Still in paper though, will keep you guys posted.

[WDRacing]

No shavings in the cam area, I checked that first thing.

The pump was pulling the oil out of the center section before it had a chance to cool/lube the turbo. So I screwed myself. I was using a 2.8 GPH pump from Shurflo. It simply works to well.

WD

[pr240sx]

Is that a Shurflo Magnetic pump you are using?I wonder how it took the high oil temp.Those surckers can really suck sometime

[Warped]

WD i was thinking about this for a bit, would this work

right under the turbo drain put a oil catch can that is vented and have the pump draw from that that way it wont put a suction on the oil in hte turbo?

[titanium240]

that's the concept I was toying around with, it seems to be a good idea as long as you have a separate oiling circuit with the right amount of oil in the catch can - about 2 qts or so like pr240sx said..this would be a piece of cake to put together, four SS braided lines between the turbo; filter; catch can; pump; and turbo...I don't know why it's being debated so much, but then again I AM a genius...lol!

hah, I'm feeling the already...
Modified by titanium240 at 4:55 PM 5/15/2005

[Warped]

lol i guess we will see

[DRIFTEADOR]

the pump isn't supposed to run dry though. how would you keep enough oil going through it when the tiny feed line can't supply it. I was thinking more along the lines of using a bigger feed line, but like said before, taking the oil pan off isn't that big of a deal.

[titanium240]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this is foolproof.

With a separate oiling circuit you wouldn't need to worry about it. A bigger supply line, sure, if you feel it's absolutely necessary. But with enough oil in the circuit there will - theoretically - always be oil in the cooler. The way I figure it, there isn't enough room in the other half of the circuit to allow the pump to drain the tank and run dry. See, the logic of my setup revolves around the law of conservation of mass, or in this case, volume. It's completely safe to assume that the pump will never run dry, and the turbo will never burn out from oil starvation.

Sounds uberfantastik on paper, eh?

[Warped]

could you supply the pump a little less voltage to slow it down just a tad throw in a voltage regulator or a potentiometer so you could chose the voltage it recieves ... eh?

[gabossie]

I think it would be to difficult to determine the correct amount of voltage, especially since it may change under different conditions. The catch can w/ pump is pretty much perfect if the pump can run dry, but it really is alot of extra stuff under the hood that could go wrong... doesn't seem worth it to me.

[WDRacing]

The only problem is figuring out exactly how much oil the turbo needs...thats it. There are 6 million ways to do this...but I doubt anyone will actually do it since they don't want to smoke a turbo in the process.

[titanium240]

If you use a big enough catch can (i'd say 3.5-4qts to be safe) you'd be fine, even if it IS overkill...if you have a few extra turbos or a few rebuild kits you wouldn't need to worry about smoking a couple getting the amount right. That could get expensive, but once somebody gets it done I think it would work almost universally depending on the turbo used. It's going to take some money, but a safe and effective setup that wouldn't involve a tapped oil pan sounds like a good investment to me.

[pr240sx]

The turbo only need pressure, not volume.is better to regulate using a restrictor thant changing the voltage.As for the pump running dry, then you are doing something wrong, too much volume, too little oil or catch can too small.Even, what type of pump are using those homemade jet guys? Its exactly the same thing!

[DRIFTEADOR]

the feed line wont be able to fill 4qts. thats the problem. the pump scavenges oil faster than the feed line can inject so even if you had a catch tank, the pump would suck it all out.

and actually i believe the turbo needs presice volume, not not necessarily pressure. with a -4an line the volume needed seems to be right at 40psi and thats where the misconception comes from. oil leaks past the seals when there is more oil coming in than gravity alone can relieve out of the turbo.

[WDRacing]

If you use a catch can that the pump port is above a certain line on the can, allowing a small amount of oil to accumulate, but it is below the gravity feed port it won't pull the oil out of the turbo. But you will have to have the catch can vented so the pump can't build suction pressure. This is where I ran into problems, the pump was pulling oil far to quickly from the center cartridge and it was getting no cooling effect and no lubrication. Here's the idea I have...

[pr240sx]

Yep, you need some kind of venting or do a completely closed system, like a dry sump engine, that even needs a vent in order to let air out.I think that WD problem was that the pump was creating too much vacuum to the turbo drain, hence no lubrication.The catch can needs to be lower than the turbo to let the oil drain.Needs to be ventedThe pump must build enough pressure to lube the oil AND not too much pressure to blow seals (like a power steering pump!!) A normal turbo restrictor could be use. As for capacity, I think that 2 quarts, depending on the plumbing, is quite enough.

[DRIFTEADOR]

If you use a catch can that the pump port is above a certain line on the can, allowing a small amount of oil to accumulate, but it is below the gravity feed port it won't pull the oil out of the turbo. But you will have to have the catch can vented so the pump can't build suction pressure. This is where I ran into problems, the pump was pulling oil far to quickly from the center cartridge and it was getting no cooling effect and no lubrication. Here's the idea I have...

i thought the pump wasn't meant to run dry?

[gabossie]

I think two quarts even is overkill, you don't need that much. In reality, it could be quite small because it's going to be running dry anyway. You just need it there so that the oil can drain from the turbo by gravity, then the pump can pull the oil from the can. Just have to have a pump that can run dry, because it WILL happen. That picture is a perfect plan.

[pr240sx]

Even if the oil isnt draining, then most of the oil will be on the pump pressure line.I mentioned 2 quarts as a basic number. I know that even with the longest oil supply line that we KATs need, 2 quarts is way too much.

[Jookmasta]

gravity method still rules as there is far less concerns to deal with as supposed to the suggested methods posted. sad that it didnt work out for wd but i guess if u used a weaker pump, the turbo wouldnt have gone bad that quickly? or maybe the pump used was just "too good" and it did its job "too well".

[WDRacing]

The pumps I use are run dry pumps. I wouldn't reccomend runng them dry alot. Which if you use a smaller catch can won't ever happen. The engine puts out quite the amount of oil when at 5000rpm. I had the pressure line come disconected at the turb and sprayed oil all over the garage and motor. So it puts out some volume when under a load.

The only thing that worries me is the cooling of the pump. Although I never had any problems with the pump failing, I didn't have a chance to run it that long.

WD

[nof03]

ststurbo.com check this out because theese guys do it.

[WDRacing]

Thats where I got the idea. Thye use some kind of scavenge pump but wouldn't release the details.

[sanioll]

PROBLEM FIXED?? WELL MAYBE.

SEE PIC BELOW

http://nissaninfiniticlub.net/...d.jpg


Modified by sanioll at 2:55 AM 5/19/2005

[sanioll]

problems:

1. tank overflows

2. tank is empty, vacuum created which sucks the oil outta turbo. BAD! DEAD TURBO!!

SOLUTION:

1. oil comes from the turbo, thats clear, it always comes

2. if thank overflows, or reaches to a point where overflow bypass valve located, it will flow to a line which is connected to a line AFTER THE OIL PUMP. so clearly main return line after the oil pump has to be large enough to handle the bandwidth of oil pump and bypass valve.

3. if the tank is empty, suction/vacuum created in the tank from oil pump sucking. in this case, vacuum neutraliser valve opens, allowing in some air.

4. THIS IS THE SOLUTION, BUT THERES A BIT PROBLEM.

======================================================

after vacuum neutraliser valve lets in some air, let say now tank starts to overfill and now air pressure is building up. That valve has to relieve that air pressure too, to avoid air going into the engine.(not sure if its harmful to engine or not. if its not then problem is solved.)

good luck.

[sanioll]

forgot to mention.

overfill bypass valve, doesnot allow the oil to come back, only forward from tank to line. since the pressure from oil pump, theresa lot of pressure in return line, thus overflow bypass valve cannot allow the oil back to the tank.

air relief valve only can let the air in, not OUT. So if it lets the air in during vacuum, and now air pressure is building up, becuase oil level is increasing i the tank, then theres a problem. or is there??

just got an idea. since return line goes into valve cover, then no need to relief air pressure. valve cover already has an opening which is connected to your intake.

Whoooo hoooo, Perfectly reliable oil system for turbo, except the pump which will eventually fail and lines that will get clogged.

ONE LAST QUESTION.

WHAT IS THE COST OF DOING THIS, COMPARED TO TAPPING A HOLE IN YOUR OIL PAN??

*choose the lowest and most reliable way.

[titanium240]

dude, how'd you get that pic hosted? there's no upload button!

[sanioll]

dude, how'd you get that pic hosted? there's no upload button!

its linked, to members gallery. i uploaded it to members gallery first.

so whre are the turbo geeks. Is this a workable solution??