The unemployment debate - Your thoughts?

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stebo0728
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Well that is exactly the point I wanted to make earlier, but I think I did a bit a face palm on it, you seemed to spell it out a bit more eloquently :)

The only thing for me is making sure we dont sell out kids future away for constant unemployement today, not that we arent selling our kids future away to other things already

Im with you tho, make this nation business friendly. Right now our economy is Off bug spray for business. If that changes we wont need to have this unemployment debate


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AZhitman
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Correct.

People whining and bitching about companies that outsource need to do some homework. Our own policies are making it less and less attractive to stay here in the US. Tax laws are unfriendly, and unions aren't helping, either...

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IBCoupe
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AZhitman wrote:You're responding with emotion - Pure emotion. Your ONLY motivator is to "keep people from starving". None other. None.
I don't believe that I am, and I don't believe that yours is an accurate summation of what I've written. I've alluded to "public health and safety" more than once: poverty breeds crime, and it also spreads disease.

Regardless of what we might think of people who sit on unemployment for months at a time, we have an interest in them, collectively, being on it.
AZhitman wrote:I pointed out solutions that have worked in the past. For DECADES, even CENTURIES. You don't want to base policy on those? GOOD. That's the idea. Get government the HELL out of the equation!!! Quit trying to make yesterday's functionality fit your limited worldview.

But you can't sit up there with 25 years' experience in an area of the country that's not historically known for faith-based and community-based cooperative and assistance organizations and pooh-pooh an option that's PROVEN to work.
Greg, if part of the problem with unemployment benefits from the government is that it gives people an incentive not to work, how is this at all a solution?

If we agree that something should happen, and we agree that limits should be placed, how is Goverment not in the best place to do it? Now, perhaps we need to put more resources towards the investigatory functions of Unemployment (and Welfare, for that matter), and get more people checking stories to cut back on abuse. But the abuses in a system are never a convincing argument against the system itself.
AZhitman wrote:Here's a question: Why hasn't the homeless population in Phoenix increased commensurate with the dip in the economy? If unemployment went from 7% to 12%, why aren't there 5% more homeless people? Why aren't there 3% more? WHY?

Because people are survivors. If they get hungry, they'll FIND a way. Keep handing them freebies, and behavior remains static.
There's a couple of problems with your statistics: first, Arizona has social safety nets. They have unemployment. They have welfare. That could be something that's keeping homelessness down where it would otherwise be up. Second, the homeless are notoriously hard to quantify. Were there to be a jump in homelessness, it's unlikely that you could ever be sure that you had an accurate picture of it. You'd probably notice it if it spiked by 3 or 5 percent (if you were specifically trying to capture that, statistically), but if you factor in both of those things, you might not see what you're expecting to see.

Edit: also, the fact that Arizona's mostly a desert could have some effect on it, in that people would rather leave than try to live without shelter where that's something that's sure to kill them in a week or less.
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audtatious wrote:So, 1.9 years getting UB should be extended to what? Then, when that don't work, extended to what? Why not just make UB an entitlement since that's pretty much what it's becoming.
You mean the 1.9 years since the first expiration in the recession? What is it you think unemployment is supposed to do? What's your measure of "don't work?"

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audtatious
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What recession? Per Obama we are growing and creating jobs on a monthly basis.

Unemployment benefits are supposed to be a short-term patch to help people who run on a paycheck by paycheck basis to meet basic needs while they find a job and get to their first paycheck. Anything over the short term should be welfare.

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I do think that these are important and should be extended, but I also think that it should come from cuts.

In fact, I think that they are tremendously important. Not so much because of the individual impact, but because of the macroeconomic ripple. In recessions, I am firmly of the belief that the governments need to be directly throwing money out there to encourage consumer spending until such time as GDP growth re-emerges and takes up the slack. This allows private enterprise to continue to take in money (via aforementioned consumer spending) so that they can start hiring again. Hiring always lags spending, it's the government's job to fund this lag time. It would happen naturally, but over a MUCH longer period (see: Japan). Deficit spending during this period* will be more than made up by an earlier return to GDP growth than if government had stayed out. In this case, there is a net-positive public gain, up and down the economic ladder, to government intervention. It is NOT disproportionately unfair to the upper echelons who don't need the benefits, because their assets will regain value more quickly due to the more rapid return to prosperity. Macroeconomics seldom passes the common sense sniff test, such is life.

That said, this spending should be paid for with cuts, and just about ANYTHING is less important than funding this stopgap, IMO. I don't care what it is, I don't care if it's the JSF, just make it something that doesn't affect consumer spending. Put it off for a few years, GDP growth is more important. Whatever nation(s) return to prosperity first win the game.



*Not ALL deficit spending, only that which directly contributes (demonstrably) to a recovery. I realize that this can only be determined in hindsight, and I am not defending ALL deficit spending because that would be retarded.

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audtatious
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They have no intention of cutting anything. I believe regardless of what party is in charge we are doomed. Here's an interesting item:

The Democratic Fisc
The White House budget office offers a scorecard on Obamanomics.

Democrats have been running Congress for nearly four years, and President Obama has been at the White House for 18 months, so it's not too soon to ask: How's that working out? One devastating scorecard came out Friday from the White House, in the form of its own semi-annual budget review.

The message: Tax revenues are smaller, spending is greater, and the deficits are thus larger than the White House has been saying. No wonder it dumped the news on the eve of a sweltering mid-July weekend.

Mr. Obama inherited a recession, so let's give him a pass on the budget numbers for 2009. Clearly the deficit would have been large no matter who was President, even if the David Obey-Nancy Pelosi $862 billion stimulus made it larger than it otherwise would have been. What's striking about the latest budget estimates, however, is that the White House is predicting the numbers won't improve much through 2011, the third year of the President's term.

As a share of the economy, the White House now says the deficit in fiscal 2010, which ends on September 30, will be even larger than in 2009: 10%. That's after a full year of economic growth, given that the recovery began last summer. More remarkable still, the deficit will barely fall in fiscal 2011, declining only to 9.2% of GDP in the second year of a recovery that ought to be gaining steam.

Image

To put this in historical context, consider the nearby table that compares deficits as a share of GDP under Presidents Reagan and Obama. The 1981-82 recession was comparable in severity to the one Mr. Obama inherited and reached similar heights of unemployment. The deficits that resulted from that recession were the source of huge political consternation, with Democrats, the press corps and even some senior Reagan aides insisting that only a huge tax increase could save the country from ruin.

Yet as the table shows, the Reagan deficits never reached more than 6% of GDP, and that happened only in 1983, the first year of economic recovery. As the 1980s expansion continued, the deficits fell, especially as the pace of spending slowed in the latter part of Reagan's second term. Few remember now, but when Ross Perot won 19% of the Presidential vote in 1992 running more or less on the single issue of the deficit, the budget hole was only 4.7% of GDP.

The Obama deficits are double that, and more than one-third higher than even the Gipper's worst year. What explains this? Part of it is that Democrats are simply spending much more, sending outlays as a share of GDP above 25% for the first time since World War II. The White House now says outlays will be higher in 2011, at 25.1% of GDP, than at the height of the stimulus in 2009 and 2010.

This is an ironic tribute to the degree to which Democrats on Capitol Hill have been increasing spending willy-nilly below the media radar. The 111th Congress is the most spendthrift in a century outside of World Wars I and II.

The other explanation for the record Obama deficits is that revenues have been so anemic, thanks to the lackluster economic recovery. In the Reagan years, revenues as a share of GDP never fell lower than 17.3%, despite (or we would say because of) his pro-growth tax cuts. In 2010, by contrast, the White House now says tax revenues will hit an astonishing low of 14.5% of GDP, rising only to 15.8% in 2011, even with the huge tax increase that hits on January 1, 2011.

The White House predicts revenues will rise sharply after that, as it also assumes the economy will grow by more than 4% in each of 2012, 2013 and 2014. The last time the economy grew that rapidly for that long, however, was from 1997-2000 and from 1983-1985. In both of those cases, taxes were falling. The Obama White House plans a huge tax increase next year, followed by the ObamaCare tax hikes that hit in 2013, and that's before whatever else the President's deficit commission recommends.

Democrats and their defenders will argue that the nature of the 2008-2009 recession, with its roots in financial panic, is the reason for the slow recovery. But it's also true that deep recessions have historically been followed by more robust recoveries.

The point we would stress is that there has also been a notable policy difference between the 1980s and today. The Reagan Administration also pursued fiscal stimulus, but its policy choice was permanent across-the-board cuts in marginal tax rates. Revenue didn't fall nearly as much as Keynesian economists predicted it would, and the economy roared back. Growth and spending restraint then reduced the deficit over time.

Democrats by contrast have pursued stimulus by spending and temporary tax rebates for selective constituencies. They did so first in concert with President George W. Bush, who was intellectually and politically tapped out, in February 2008. Then they did so again, on hyperdrive, with the February 2009 stimulus. They are now doing it again on a smaller scale with another burst of jobless benefits, adding some $30 billion to the deficit.

To put it another way, Democrats have been undertaking a vast fiscal policy experiment, blowing out the federal balance sheet in an effort to show that a country can spend and tax its way to prosperity. Look no further than the numbers in the White House's own budget review for the unhappy lab results.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 74968.html

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AZhitman
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...and what blows my mind is the utter lack of accountability of his Cabinet.

Not ONCE has he thrown someone under the bus for their incompetence.

Pelosi says something colossally dumb, and the right-wing whackos are the ONLY ones who report on it.

Holder opens his big yap about a bill he's never read, and it's business as usual.

Nappy drops the ball on MORE than one Homeland Security issue, and she keep trucking along.

Bernanke advocates throwing more and more and more money at unemployment and stimulus, despite expert economists' statements from BOTH sides of the aisle, and he's still leading the charge.

When's Prezbo gonna pull them all aside and say, "You retards are making me look bad!"

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Aud ... that study is a bit flawed in my opinion. It compares numbers of Reagan to Obama? The better comparison would be to compare Carter numbers to Obamas. Reagan was a fixer, not a breaker.

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audtatious
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stebo0728 wrote:Aud ... that study is a bit flawed in my opinion. It compares numbers of Reagan to Obama? The better comparison would be to compare Carter numbers to Obamas. Reagan was a fixer, not a breaker.
Because Reagan fixed things left by Carter whereas Obama is supposed to fix things as left by Bush?

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To play devil's advocate to those who are still debating about unemployment benefits, the most efficient way to put economic stimulus into the economy is directly into the hands of Americans. Several people have called for this style of stimulus, which is exactly what unemployment benefits are in a sense.

It would cost more to investigate abuses of this system and take a much longer time to recover compared to the alternative, a pro-business and pro-growth policy with clear goals and expectations set out by the government. We've seen the administration back down on certain tax increases already and the heat is on to back down on more.

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audtatious wrote:What recession? Per Obama we are growing and creating jobs on a monthly basis.

Unemployment benefits are supposed to be a short-term patch to help people who run on a paycheck by paycheck basis to meet basic needs while they find a job and get to their first paycheck. Anything over the short term should be welfare.
That snark doesn't help your case. If anything, the sarcasm helps mine.

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audtatious
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:rolleyes:

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smockers83 wrote:To play devil's advocate to those who are still debating about unemployment benefits, the most efficient way to put economic stimulus into the economy is directly into the hands of Americans.
I wasn't happy about stimulus money being used to prop up companies that made poor financial decisions. Why would I want stimulus money to go to individuals with the same problems?

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AZhitman
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Good point. Oh, and for the ones who have "given up", go ahead and cut them off now. We can do fine without them, and they sure dont need to be passing their crappy give-up genes along.

I think a lot of the problem here is that much of the younger generation isn't used to being told NO. Spoiled and entitled.

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Unemployment benefits in time of recession are effectively a means of cutting taxes for people who are earning no income.

If (in some hypothetical imaginary land) consumer spending were way down but employment was normal, we'd just cut taxes. In our current predicament however, cutting taxes won't work as well because it won't stimulate the spending of the portion of the population that lost their jobs. There's nothing to cut for them.

You COULD say that you'll just cut taxes to the wealthy that much more to offset it, but that doesn't work so well either. After a certain point, people will just save, and so it's better to give a little cut to everyone than a huge cut to a few people, because then it's more likely they'll just go out and spend it.

If you support the general idea of cutting taxes to boost consumer spending, then you should generally support the extension of unemployment benefits. It may be less "fair", but it works, and the ensuing recovery will benefit those at the top more anyway.

Obviously, this says nothing about how to fund this. Funding unemployment extensions out of deficits are just as bad (but no worse) than funding tax cuts out of deficits. Ideally, both should be paid for out of extra money that we have, not money that we have to borrow.


FWIW, the deficit spending under Obama is indeed staggering, but these extensions are a *tiny* piece of that pie. They *should* largely pay for themselves. At least, if you believe that a stimulative tax cut pays for itself, then it stands to reason that this would also. Consumer spending is consumer spending.

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HashiriyaS14 wrote:Unemployment benefits in time of recession are effectively a means of cutting taxes for people who are earning no income.
Whodawhat?

How do you cut what does not exist? Someone somewhere has to pay it and that person has less they can spend outside the household

:)

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audtatious wrote:
HashiriyaS14 wrote:Unemployment benefits in time of recession are effectively a means of cutting taxes for people who are earning no income.
Whodawhat?

How do you cut what does not exist? Someone somewhere has to pay it and that person has less they can spend outside the household

:)

I'm just saying that it has the same effect. When you cut someone's taxes, they spend more money. When you extend their unemployment, they spend more money. The economic effect is the same, and the cost to the government is the same.

Obviously if you're going to hike taxes for some people to pay unemployment extensions to others, that doesn't work, but that isn't what's happening. If they're going to borrow funds for stimulative spending, I'm just saying that unemployment benefits aren't any different than a tax cut, and maybe more effective.

If your tax revenue isn't matching your spending, then you are always, in effect, borrowing money to make tax cuts. You're spending the money, and if it isn't coming out of revenues, it's coming from borrowing. The Bush tax cuts are funded by borrowing, and they will continue to be if/when they get extended (which needs to happen, for awhile).

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AZhitman wrote:Good point. Oh, and for the ones who have "given up", go ahead and cut them off now. We can do fine without them, and they sure dont need to be passing their crappy give-up genes along.

I think a lot of the problem here is that much of the younger generation isn't used to being told NO. Spoiled and entitled.
No, sir. Those would be people of your guys' generations (the data shows it). Those much older than I, say in their upper 30s, 40s, and probably 50s. People of my generation, I'm an anomaly of, so I can't exactly speak to, but everyone I know of in my generation is working or in graduate school of some sort.

Although I would agree with the spoiled and entitled piece. The gym I used to work for, I kicked my fair share of kids out who thought they were entitled to be there.

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audtatious wrote:
HashiriyaS14 wrote:Unemployment benefits in time of recession are effectively a means of cutting taxes for people who are earning no income.
Whodawhat?

How do you cut what does not exist? Someone somewhere has to pay it and that person has less they can spend outside the household

:)
There are taxes on those benefits, don't worry about that. The same goes for social security.

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Crazyirish wrote:
smockers83 wrote:To play devil's advocate to those who are still debating about unemployment benefits, the most efficient way to put economic stimulus into the economy is directly into the hands of Americans.
I wasn't happy about stimulus money being used to prop up companies that made poor financial decisions. Why would I want stimulus money to go to individuals with the same problems?
So, you're trying to compare businesses who made poor decisions to those people who worked and were laid off or had their position cut? Umm, yeah...doesn't fly. Sorry guys.

If you want to attack those who got in over their heads in terms of credit and housing, that's a whole other debate/story. Doesn't belong here. This is unemployment.

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smockers83 wrote:
audtatious wrote:Whodawhat?

How do you cut what does not exist? Someone somewhere has to pay it and that person has less they can spend outside the household

:)
There are taxes on those benefits, don't worry about that. The same goes for social security.
Taxing it is stupid. Obummer needs to stop focusing on AZ, health care, EPA, and other initiatives and get some real job growth instead of simply expanding the Gov and claiming growth.

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Aint no sunshine till their gone , .
Thank NAFTA, CAFTA, GATT & The WTO. for our job's in u.s. going out of the country .
Hate to say it but the radio flyer little red wagon aint comming back ..Want work , go overseas were our collage grad's have to find work now . Or find a fusion center or government job ..Who's hiring ? the government , Thats who . I wouldnt expect miracle's from our facist government like creating job;s by printing money . Thats a funny one . lol. . Everything they do is reverse of what we actaully need. It's only going to get worse for awhile yet baby , whew . Good luck on the job hunting ..my daughter has a 4 year u.w. degree and stocks shelves at Fred Meyer ..She's living the amerikan dream now . I mean what our the numbers now ? about 22 percent . its only going to grow from here on out !austerity for all............
OMG - HAHA - Not sure if the absolute dog a** bad grammar and spelling were unintentional or meant for sarcastic effect. Anyway in response, I agree with some of the statements, but I cant agree with the attitude. The Declaration of Independence charges us to overthrow a government that has fallen to despotism. How do we do that? The ballot box. We dont run and hide, or give up, thats not the amerikan spirit. If you wanna split your more than welcome but I can aid in spreading that sort of sentiment. We have to take back washington, and some part of me, whether delusional or not, believes it to still be possible.

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stebo0728 wrote:The Declaration of Independence charges us to overthrow a government that has fallen to despotism. How do we do that?
War.

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wingFeather wrote:
stebo0728 wrote:The Declaration of Independence charges us to overthrow a government that has fallen to despotism. How do we do that?
War .. hoo .. what is it gooood for .... absolutely nothin nothin nothin.
LOL

I think be have the ballot box which will work if people will wake up and use it. War is not absolutely necessary in situations such as these. And I dont know if I want people fight on my side who arent willing to put in an educated vote.

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stebo0728 wrote:
wingFeather wrote: War .. hoo .. what is it gooood for .... absolutely nothin nothin nothin.
LOL

I think be have the ballot box which will work if people will wake up and use it. War is not absolutely necessary in situations such as these. And I dont know if I want people fight on my side who arent willing to put in an educated vote.
And who knows who will be fighting at your side if the United National Service Act passes...Mandates of service for those up to 42 years of age.

http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-H5741/text

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What's weird about that is that it's introduced by Rangel and Dodd... and it mirrors the ideas of the people in my workplace who'd absolutely hate both of those men. Spooky.

I don't think it will pass. It hasn't passed the other three times it's been proposed. It's an anti-war statement that gets voted against by the people who introduce it.

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With today's Congress you can never tell what will or will not pass.

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IBCoupe wrote:I don't think it will pass.
audtatious wrote:With today's Congress you can never tell what will or will not pass.
At one time people said these kinds of things about an income tax. Seen your pay stub lately? :facepalm:

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Yes, but it's been proposed by Democrats four times now, and the last time it came up in the house, it lost 402 to 2. And those two votes? Not the two Reps that introduced the bill.

It will not pass.


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