The French are at it again
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Movingviolation240
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The French are at it again
Did anybody see it on the news that the French were out protesting the US and our "invasion" of Iraq. The really funny part was that they were doing it the day before the 60th anneversary of the D day invasion. So I guess it's allright when we go in to help them get rid of their evil dictator, but when we do it somplace else it's all of a sudden a bad idea......
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JESTER
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Wasn't a coincidence. Those little back stabbing, untrust worthy POS's.
They forget all about what our grandparents did for them, for the entire world. The only ones we can trust is the Brits, and Aussie's. Hell I would sooner trust the Peoples Republic of China before the french.
If western europe was ever again over run with evil like the Nazi's, who do you think that France would call for help? The U.S.A. Who saved their butts last time? The U.S.A. and our allies. And who protected them from being just one more state of the United Soviet Socialist Republic? The U.S.A.
We were discussing the late Mr Reagan in the other thread (R.I.P.) but they forget what he did to take away that threat to them, and the threat of world destruction through nuclear war.
I have no use for that country or the Germans. We will have to fight them again.
They forget all about what our grandparents did for them, for the entire world. The only ones we can trust is the Brits, and Aussie's. Hell I would sooner trust the Peoples Republic of China before the french.
If western europe was ever again over run with evil like the Nazi's, who do you think that France would call for help? The U.S.A. Who saved their butts last time? The U.S.A. and our allies. And who protected them from being just one more state of the United Soviet Socialist Republic? The U.S.A.
We were discussing the late Mr Reagan in the other thread (R.I.P.) but they forget what he did to take away that threat to them, and the threat of world destruction through nuclear war.
I have no use for that country or the Germans. We will have to fight them again.
You have your facts just a little bit off there . . . for one, though the United States made a significant contribution to World War II, the USSR killed far more Germans than we ever did; in fact, Stalin wanted the US and the UK to get involved quite a bit before D-Day, and it wasn't until we were embarassed by our efforts, and the threat of the USSR winning the eastern front (the USSR was not involved in a fight with Japan at the time; the USSR didn't engage in war with Japan until 2 days after we dropped the bomb), and thus gaining control over Europe, scared us.
The Germans already had control of France, at the time; however, the USSR was continuing to draw German troops into Russia to fight what ended up being bloody battles that the Germans were loosing, particularly at Kursk. So, while we did help the French a lot, we were hardly the ones who saved them from extinction as a state.
And to say we'd have to fight the Germans again is a little, well, ludicrous. They may not have allied with us in this war, but neither did the majority of the other countries of the world. To say we'd have to fight them all because of that is a little off-base . . . in my opinion, anyway.
The Germans already had control of France, at the time; however, the USSR was continuing to draw German troops into Russia to fight what ended up being bloody battles that the Germans were loosing, particularly at Kursk. So, while we did help the French a lot, we were hardly the ones who saved them from extinction as a state.
And to say we'd have to fight the Germans again is a little, well, ludicrous. They may not have allied with us in this war, but neither did the majority of the other countries of the world. To say we'd have to fight them all because of that is a little off-base . . . in my opinion, anyway.
And you really cant compare the two. I mean if we didnt enter WW2 we would almost for sure be speaking German or being a slave. If the Iraq war didnt happen, it would probably only effect Iraqi's instead of the world wide hell that Hitler would have brought. Besides alot of people dont like this war for a lot of reasons, and to dismiss them makes you just as ignorant as someone that hates the war blindly without looking at both sides.
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Cold_Zero
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A few corrections and an opinion.
1. Who we can trust. I do recall that not only the Brits and the Aussies helped fight the war, but so did Italy, Spain, Bulgaria, Japan (support role).
2. War in Europe. The only thing I would add to elbles's comment was the fact that the USSR lost more people in WW2 than any other country. Who saved Europe's butt? It was a combined effort.
3. The French. Foreign policy is a funny thing. Just because the United States demes something important doesn’t mean that every country on earth has to have the same viewpoint. Make no mistake about the French, since the 1960’s they have strived to be a super power. I am sure they do what is in their best interest internationally.
Now, the US and France have had a rich history in helping each other. Let us not forget in 2002, French soldiers rescued 100 American school children in the Ivory Coast, during an uprising. The French were also there for us during the Revolutionary War. It is very easy to be let down by the French from time to time. One minute they are in your corner, the next they are criticizing you.
1. Who we can trust. I do recall that not only the Brits and the Aussies helped fight the war, but so did Italy, Spain, Bulgaria, Japan (support role).
2. War in Europe. The only thing I would add to elbles's comment was the fact that the USSR lost more people in WW2 than any other country. Who saved Europe's butt? It was a combined effort.
3. The French. Foreign policy is a funny thing. Just because the United States demes something important doesn’t mean that every country on earth has to have the same viewpoint. Make no mistake about the French, since the 1960’s they have strived to be a super power. I am sure they do what is in their best interest internationally.
Now, the US and France have had a rich history in helping each other. Let us not forget in 2002, French soldiers rescued 100 American school children in the Ivory Coast, during an uprising. The French were also there for us during the Revolutionary War. It is very easy to be let down by the French from time to time. One minute they are in your corner, the next they are criticizing you.
It's hard to say what would have happened if we hadn't entered World War II; I'm not sure that we'd be speaking German, but we could very well be speaking Russian. D-Day, now that it is officially the 60th anniversary, was spurred by the fact that the USSR was pretty much beating the Germans quite badly, though suffering great losses themselves. They probably could have beaten Germany on their own, but as a result of that, they would have had control over the entirety of Europe, which scared us crapless (for lack of a better, non-filtered word, heh).
Iraq is a unique war, in that it's almost strictly bilateral. It's us and, well, what was left of Saddam's Iraq. The French are free to criticize us for what they believe to be the US taking advantage of the situation for the benefit of the US people, just as we were free to go into Iraq without UN approval. There are consequences both ways, but it is up to the respective countries to face them. We'll see how this one goes down in the history books, I guess . . . :-)
Iraq is a unique war, in that it's almost strictly bilateral. It's us and, well, what was left of Saddam's Iraq. The French are free to criticize us for what they believe to be the US taking advantage of the situation for the benefit of the US people, just as we were free to go into Iraq without UN approval. There are consequences both ways, but it is up to the respective countries to face them. We'll see how this one goes down in the history books, I guess . . . :-)
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Movingviolation240
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If you think we started fighting on D day I know some guys who flew in the 8th airforce who would beg to differ. And Stallin didn't draw the Germans in, Hittler decided to do that on his own.
The US and the Britt's were the 2 main countries droping bombs on occupied france to help force the germans out, we are the ones who were in africa chasing down Rummel, we were the primary country involved in the pacific theater, we shipped millions of tons of supplies, food, weapons, ect into europe with the merchant marine............
Paul
The US and the Britt's were the 2 main countries droping bombs on occupied france to help force the germans out, we are the ones who were in africa chasing down Rummel, we were the primary country involved in the pacific theater, we shipped millions of tons of supplies, food, weapons, ect into europe with the merchant marine............
Paul
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JESTER
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I am not comparing Iraq to WWII Just stating what we have done for them. And they decide not to back us up.
Elbles, re-read my post. I said if not for "The U.S.A. and our allies". The USSR was one of our allies. I truley don't belive with out our (us and the other allied forces) invasion that the Russians could have taken western Europe. Possibly, but it would have been an extremly drawn out event. But there are so many equations to add in to the conflict. Hitler's insanity to be the most prominent.
And the comment about having to fight the German's again. That is not ludicris. I will give you improbable, but not ludicris. That is a personal opinion of mine, unrelated totally to Iraq and truley not related to the general topic (I know this). I just tossed that in there because of my mutual distrust for both countries.
Elbles, re-read my post. I said if not for "The U.S.A. and our allies". The USSR was one of our allies. I truley don't belive with out our (us and the other allied forces) invasion that the Russians could have taken western Europe. Possibly, but it would have been an extremly drawn out event. But there are so many equations to add in to the conflict. Hitler's insanity to be the most prominent.
And the comment about having to fight the German's again. That is not ludicris. I will give you improbable, but not ludicris. That is a personal opinion of mine, unrelated totally to Iraq and truley not related to the general topic (I know this). I just tossed that in there because of my mutual distrust for both countries.
You are exactly correct Cold_Zero. I would have mentioned that, but it softened my argument. :-) FWIW, the USSR was drafting people who were completely unexperienced, but the sheer quantity was helping them to win the war, along with their T34 tank, which was remarkable technology for its time. They still had plenty of people left, but only due to what now would be considered the cold heartedness that was Stalin's war policy.
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JESTER
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PS the Russian were in their own country fighting their butts off. They didnt have time to care a thing about the french.
EDIT:Cold_Zero, My post is mostly opinion with some fact threw in. As far as the trust thing goes, not disputing the things the other coalition forces have done to help us. They need to be comended, and we need not forget what they have done for us. As well you pointed out some good points on france. Shows thay can get their butts in gear and on the right side most of the time.
EDIT:Cold_Zero, My post is mostly opinion with some fact threw in. As far as the trust thing goes, not disputing the things the other coalition forces have done to help us. They need to be comended, and we need not forget what they have done for us. As well you pointed out some good points on france. Shows thay can get their butts in gear and on the right side most of the time.
To respond to Movingviolation240: D-Day was the most significant day in terms of ground troops in the war for the United States. We certainly had a fair share of other things going on at the time, but what Stalin had really wanted us to do was commit ground troops. I certainly respect those who fought before D-Day, as my grandfather was one of them, but D-Day is really the most significant day for us being on the ground on the western front (relative to the USSR's perspective, the eastern front for ours). Also, Hitler sent more Germans in because Stalin's strategies were winning against them. The Germans had a few very successful advances early on in the war, but the battles of Stalingrad and Kursk saw enormous German casualties and captures. And the USSR, unlike the US, did not have the agreement to treat the Germans humanely. As such, the Germans were terrified of the USSR, and Hitler kept sending more and more in, taking them away from the German front facing the French. We are definitely a military force, but so was Germany. On any given day, the greatest military in the world can be defeated, based on sheer will and tactics. Vietnam is a perfect example.
And to reply to JESTER, I know what you meant, I just wanted to correct a few facts. :-) Though personally, I don't believe the French owe us anything, and they are perfectly entitled to their opinion. Iraq is a touchy subject, even among Americans; if Americans can criticize Iraq, I highly doubt you can criticize the French for doing so after our effors 60 years ago to help the allies win a war that was already being won. I also believe the war would have been won without D-Day, though it would have been much more drawn out. The USSR/Russia was becoming an amazing military force, and when it came down to numbers, they had more, and they were rapidly reducing the number on the German side. It's an argument that could go on forever, because it is all what-if's, but fun to ponder nonetheless. :-)
Germany and France are simply both extremely moderate countries compared to America, in that they are far more cautious of hasty actions, and are very concerned about foreign policy, and foreign relations. For some Americans, these facts make us nervous, and even angry, but they are just to act that way, IMO, and I trust Germany, if not France, heh. :-)
And to reply to JESTER, I know what you meant, I just wanted to correct a few facts. :-) Though personally, I don't believe the French owe us anything, and they are perfectly entitled to their opinion. Iraq is a touchy subject, even among Americans; if Americans can criticize Iraq, I highly doubt you can criticize the French for doing so after our effors 60 years ago to help the allies win a war that was already being won. I also believe the war would have been won without D-Day, though it would have been much more drawn out. The USSR/Russia was becoming an amazing military force, and when it came down to numbers, they had more, and they were rapidly reducing the number on the German side. It's an argument that could go on forever, because it is all what-if's, but fun to ponder nonetheless. :-)
Germany and France are simply both extremely moderate countries compared to America, in that they are far more cautious of hasty actions, and are very concerned about foreign policy, and foreign relations. For some Americans, these facts make us nervous, and even angry, but they are just to act that way, IMO, and I trust Germany, if not France, heh. :-)
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Cold_Zero
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JESTER wrote:EDIT:Cold_Zero, My post is mostly opinion with some fact threw in. As far as the trust thing goes, not disputing the things the other coalition forces have done to help us. They need to be comended, and we need not forget what they have done for us. As well you pointed out some good points on france. Shows thay can get their butts in gear and on the right side most of the time.
That was a minor correction.
What I find interesting and I am a little rusty on my history. But when the Allies stormed the beaches of Normandy, one of the high ranking Army Generals was quoted as saying "Laffayette, We have arrived!" Implying that we owed the French.
Oh, and I agree with you, the USSR didn't care a bit about the French. It was luck that Hitler withdrew troops from that side of the war to try and assist on the Russian front, as though the Germans had been within miles of St. Petersberg (I believe it was St. Petersberg, maybe Moscow, not sure), the Russians were approaching Berlin, and fast. Hitler had no choice there, and thus, the French benefited.
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Cold_Zero
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Elbles,By your comments are you suggesting that the Russians and the Brits/Americans were not collaborating on the strategies of the War effort.
And as far as DDay being the US's first movement of ground troops in Europe. US and British troops were marching through Italy well before the first Para’s dropped on Normandy.
I honestly think that the Russians and the French didn’t join the war effort in Iraq, because they were afraid of being implicated for the things they did in Iraq. Paying Saddam bribes and selling Iraq illegal arms during the embargo would have given the Russians and the French black eye. Let us recall, the Nuclear Power plant that was bombed in Baghdad by the Israelis in the mid 80's was proximately built by the French.
I kinda respect the Germans for their reason for not going to war. At least they weren’t trying to cover their butts.
And as far as DDay being the US's first movement of ground troops in Europe. US and British troops were marching through Italy well before the first Para’s dropped on Normandy.
I honestly think that the Russians and the French didn’t join the war effort in Iraq, because they were afraid of being implicated for the things they did in Iraq. Paying Saddam bribes and selling Iraq illegal arms during the embargo would have given the Russians and the French black eye. Let us recall, the Nuclear Power plant that was bombed in Baghdad by the Israelis in the mid 80's was proximately built by the French.
I kinda respect the Germans for their reason for not going to war. At least they weren’t trying to cover their butts.
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JESTER
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It wasnt that we owed the french. Laffayette was on our case for not invading sooner. Plus alas, as pointed out, we too did owe them a little help. They did assist us in our revolution.
It should be pointed out that they were also going to enter the civial war on the side of the confederates unitl Lincoln abolished slavery. Then they were unable to enter the war, because the south was oposed to the abolishment of slavery, where as their own country had already taken this step of abolishment.
It should be pointed out that they were also going to enter the civial war on the side of the confederates unitl Lincoln abolished slavery. Then they were unable to enter the war, because the south was oposed to the abolishment of slavery, where as their own country had already taken this step of abolishment.
Correct. In fact, Stalin signed a non-agression pact with Hitler in the timeframe of 1939-1940 (which Hitler violated, and thus really pissed Stalin off), and we didn't begin to really work with the USSR until D-Day, or shortly beforehand. In exchange for us agreeing to support a second front, the USSR agreed to help us with Japan at some point (which ended up being 2 days after we dropped the bomb). In short, we did end up collaborating fairly closely, but it took a while, mainly because we didn't trust Stalin, and there was the Red Scare too.
And D-Day was the most significant ground troop movement relative to the US and the UK. Not the first, just most significant . . . I'd have to start reading up again to discuss further, though with everything on the various "educational" channels today, it might not be an issue. :-)
And D-Day was the most significant ground troop movement relative to the US and the UK. Not the first, just most significant . . . I'd have to start reading up again to discuss further, though with everything on the various "educational" channels today, it might not be an issue. :-)
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Cold_Zero
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I think he was talking about General Lafayette during the Revolutionary War. http://members.aol.com/spursfa...y.htmJESTER wrote:It wasnt that we owed the french. Laffayette was on our case for not invading sooner. Plus alas, as pointed out, we too did owe them a little help. They did assist us in our revolution.
Quote »It should be pointed out that they were also going to enter the civial war on the side of the confederates unitl Lincoln abolished slavery. Then they were unable to enter the war, because the south was oposed to the abolishment of slavery, where as their own country had already taken this step of abolishment. [/quote]
This makes an excellent point about the irony of the French in regards to their friendship with the US.
I would never describe the French as being a friend of the US. More like a business associate, friendly when to their benefit, against us when they having nothing to gain from such an association. Great Britian, on the other hand, aside from the Revolutionary War of course, is like a wife. :-)Cold_Zero wrote:I think he was talking about General Lafayette during the Revolutionary War. http://members.aol.com/spursfa...y.htm
This makes an excellent point about the irony of the French in regards to their friendship with the US.
JESTER: Definitely. :-)
Vimyj: Iraq might not be related to WWII, but there are similarities, at least in how America would have the world perceive things, describing Saddam as being Hitler-esque, for example . . . I personally don't think they are that alike, but it is a common perception, with quite a bit of foundation.
Vimyj: Iraq might not be related to WWII, but there are similarities, at least in how America would have the world perceive things, describing Saddam as being Hitler-esque, for example . . . I personally don't think they are that alike, but it is a common perception, with quite a bit of foundation.