The French are at it again

[VimyJ]

Was he sponsoring Al Quida? Probably.

No evidence has come to light that the secular Ba'athist party was supporting the Islamic fundamentalist al Qaeda movement. In fact, bin Laden called for the overthrow of Iraq's "apostate socialist regime."

No WMD and no AQ. Read "The Presidential Letter" link I posted previously.

[elbles]

JESTER: We certainly have taken on the role of the "World Police" since WWII, for better, or for worse . . . I say focus on domestic issues (and there's plenty of them) before we decide to help the rest of the world "reap the benefits of the American way of life". Hope the sarcasm comes across, heh.

I too hope that we solve problems in Iraq; I doubt that we will, but I'll be hopeful nonetheless . . .

S13GUY: I wasn't implying that I think America is imperialistic with regard to Iraq, just that many people in the middle east might think that. We love our oil, and they know that . . . thus their first thought might be that we are conquering them for our own selfish purposes. That's all, heh . . .

[VimyJ]

S13GUY: I wasn't implying that I think America is imperialistic with regard to Iraq, just that many people in the middle east might think that. We love our oil, and they know that . . . thus their first thought might be that we are conquering them for our own selfish purposes. That's all, heh . . .

Bin Laden has preached that very idea for years and it doesn't look as if he was mistaken in the least. Perception is reality.

[ilovedrifting]

elbles,you are correct berlin isn't in russia. at the time of d-day, russia was not rolling through berlin they were fighting off the germans in poland and in parts of russia. russia did get to berlin before us but it wasn't in june of 1944. i don't think that 800 men and women fighting and dying is nothing. the sacrifices that they gave are enormous and can never be thanked enough. i merely compared it to wars of the past where we losing that many people a day. we didn't go into iraq for oil, if we did gas prices wouldn't be as high as they are, nor are we imperialist. the definition of imperialist according to dictionary.com is -The policy of extending a nation's authority by territorial acquisition or by the establishment of economic and political hegemony over other nations-the us doesn't fit this description therefore it is rediculous to think that we are imperialist. We went into iraq, overthrew saddam, and we are now in the process of handing the country back to its people as a democracy, which i personaly don't think will work in the middle east, but either way we are not imperialist as we didn't take control of the iraqi people or economy. The take down of saddam was the right thing to do and it has made the world a safer place. and if you argue that he wasn't a threat to the us, so we shouldn't have invaded i have to say this. This is the war on terror, not the war on terrorism against america. We are fighting terror both here and abroad and saddam hussein was without a doubt a terrorlst and if not to the us then to the kurds. He commited genocide against the kurds using wmd's to kill thousands of innocent kurdish men, women, and children. Though the war may have caused more anti-american movements it was the right thing to do. we liberated a country that has suffered for many decades under the brutal tyranny. The iraq people are happy to have been liberated and are glad that we are there.

[Phax]

We're having problems because we're allied with the wrong side. We support one of the most oppressive regimes in the Middle East (Israel). Yet the media has skewed the American public opinion against the Palestinian's by labelling them as terrorists. They are 'terrorists' because 'terrorism' is the most effective tool at their disposal. If the Palestinian's had access to M1 battle tanks, B2 bombers and cruise missiles, they sure as hell would be using them. They don't, so they need to fight a guerilla campaign against a foreign invader.

I as an American person, am fed up with Israel and the Jewish lobby. How many Jews are fighting in Iraq right now? Probably not many. Yet how many Jewish organizations have powerful lobbies in Washington, and influence foreign policy? All too many.

What I read here, and what I hear when I speak to all too many people on this matter are misdirected thoughts. Many people are so focused on how 'bad' Saddam was, and how we needed to remove him. Very few of those people are looking beyond Saddam, and what we as American's GAINED by removing him.

If you guys can put your emotions aside, I'd like to talk about what America has to GAIN by being in the Middle East. Because honestly, I could care less about the government in Iraq. There are millions of DEMOCRATIC American's living below the poverty line. You don't see America declaring war on poverty. Entire sections of the inner city are run by drug gangs, and crime has become accepted to the point that people are making millions of dollars every year rapping about the criminal life style. Yet we don't have any policy for dealing with that. But it's okay to spend hundreds of billions of dollars to bring "democracy" to Iraq?!

And for the record, America isn't even a democracy. It's a Republic. We don't have one person, one vote. Our country is divided into precincts and districts. And anyone who is in touch with the process knows that district boundries are constantly being redrawn, in an effort to skew things toward one party or the other.

[ilovedrifting]

what did america have to gain in iraq??

[ilovedrifting]

and don't say oil

[VimyJ]

Gasoline is high mainly because of demand exceeding refinery capacity.

This invasion wasn't about getting the oil, it is about controlling the oil. This is a subtle but very important difference. It will still be sold to the highest bidder as per usual.

In Muslim eyes, the USA exactly fits the definition of an imperialist power and platitudes about the faux reasons for invasion such as freeing the poor Iraqis, etc., does nothing to change the fact that the US invaded the Arab world which was a prediction of the Prophet Ossama bin Laden. Remember, perception is reality.

"Mom and apple pie" or pure power play? On which do you think the administration has so far spent the best part of $200 billion?

[yashin]

Iraq wasn't really a threat to anybody. Hell their military was in terrible shape.

People use the invasion of Kuwait to prove that their military was useful. But in reality they have always been weak. Heck they could barely muster a tie against iran in 8 years, even with US support, money, logistical help, satellite troop movements, and US attacks on Iranian ships. Their military was never a real threat to anybody. The only reason they invaded Kuwait was that the Kuwaiti military was in even worse shape.

S13guy, you think this is all a big crazy theory. Want to know who wrote that report?

Cheney, Rumsfeld, d!ck Armitage, Perle and Wolfowitz among others. Coincedently they happen to be the most powerful men the the country.

It isn't just a crazy theory.

It was only partly about oil. It was also about, power, regaining control of the middle east, serving Israel,, muscle flexing, and creating a new rule of law, one where might equals right.

edit.. I think phax has a great point, imagine how much 200 billion would help out to create a good health care system, or to build affordable housing, or help with education, etc etc.

[BMW_Dave]

They say that in the laws of power, the man who has to remind another of what they have done for them in the past, is weak. A truly strong ally speaks of what they can do for you in the future.

To relate that to the current situation with France, or the rest of the world for that matter... what is America doing for the world? As an American citizen, I'm ashmed to say that we are doing very little, to positively impact the world.

Iraq is the biggest, cluster f***, knee jerk reaction in the world. The historical similarities between 9/11 and Iraq, and the Reichstag Fire and its aftermath which led to Hitler's assention <sp?> to power, are frighteningly similar.

It's frightening how the Bush administration was able to take a terrorlst attack like 9/11, and then direct the confusion and furor we as a nation have over being attacked, and direct it to advance policy in Iraq.

I know that there is a lot going on in the world, behind the scenes, that we don't know about. As someone pointed out, the French want to be a super power. I'm sure that they are funding and indirectly supporting all sorts of bad guys. Kind of like we support some real bastards in Central and South America.

I was watching ABC Nightly News, and they of course had coverage of a D-Day event in France. I find it a bit disheartening that the words they decided to close the segment with were something to the effect of, "A concern among many WW2 veterans here is that they wonder how long the alliances that they fought to uphold, will remain after they are gone."

I was having a wonderful time reading these posts until I came upon this pile of horse****! I knew before I looked that you were either an ignorant student, a resident of California or both!

The French for the most part are bitter because they can't get used to the fact that they AREN'T a world power anymore and add to the fact that we, the Brits, Canadians, Russians (forgive me if I have left others out...) did indeed save their a**es. The older French like us for the most part, but the younger ones are so freaking left wing I could puke! Michelin tires are about all they have contributed lately, and most of those are made here now!

What is America doing for the world you arrogant ungrateful jerk...covering their a**es as usual!!!!!!!!! France and the United Nations can kiss my a**! They are pompous idealists who don't have a clue as to when diplomacy stops and the "Big Stick" comes out...we are not imperialistic...if we were, we would have conquered the whole world by now....but we will only "play nice" for so long...I am sick and tired of the mealy mouthed nations of the world criticizing our policies when we bear the burden of being the most powerful nation on earth! Like it or not, we are the world's policemen...freedom and strength carry a heavy price!

I can't believe that you are comparing "W" to Hitler...and btw if you cant spell "ascension", or at least look it up, then don't try to post anything resembling rational thought!

P.S. My apologies to all "thinking" students and residents of CA who aren't in the Michael Moore fan club!

[Cold_Zero]

it doesn't help our case to go in to an Arabic country and attempt to "fix their problems".

To be honest, we created this problem, 1. Saddam on CIA payroll2. Funding of Iraq after the Islamic Revolution in Iran

Why not fix what we helped create?

[Cold_Zero]

The French, Canada, Germany and Russia were smart. Try not to hold it against them.

The French and Russians were covering their asses! Right before the invasion and even after, the borders with Syria were flooded with activity. Documents, Weapons and I am sure other contraband were smuggled out of the country. We know that the Russians and the French were shipping in illegal arms to Iraq during the UN Embargo. Remember, Iraq signed the peace treaty after Desert Storm and agreed limited proliferation of the military. The Europeans (mainly the French) were paying outragous cash bribes to Saddam and his family for Oil Contracts, once the Embargo was lifted on Iraq. The Oil for Food program was more like Oil for Cash and Arms to the French.

[BMW_Dave]

If I hear one more person say we could have spent 200 billion on health, education, etc....I will most certainly throw up! We spend more on education per student than any industialized country except Switzerland...money doesn't always fix things...especially in the hands of bureaucrats!

Yes we have a democratic "form" of govt...thank God we are not a "democracy", i.e. mob rule, or people like Phax would lead us into socialism (like Canada, Yashin)! We are a "constitutional Republic", and the first duty of our government is to "protect" us from bad guys, countries, etc...God all I wanted to read about was cars....let me leave this thread before I get violently ill!

[VimyJ]

What is America doing for the world you arrogant ungrateful jerk...covering their a**es as usual!!!!!!!!! France and the United Nations can kiss my a**! They are pompous idealists who don't have a clue as to when diplomacy stops and the "Big Stick" comes out...we are not imperialistic...if we were, we would have conquered the whole world by now....but we will only "play nice" for so long...

Reality check now: The US couldn't hold NK or Viet Nam and is completely committed in Iraq. We're talking military control.

Muslims see the US first and foremost as a cultural and economic imperialist. The recent invasion completes the hat trick.

If all this "free the poor Iraqis" stuff was the real goal of the invasion, why did the administration lie about it by saying WMD and AQ were the official objects?

Read the "Presidential Letter" and take off the rose colored glasses.

[Phax]

I can't believe that you are comparing "W" to Hitler...and btw if you cant spell "ascension", or at least look it up, then don't try to post anything resembling rational thought!

I will be the first to admit that my spelling sucks. When I compose a document in Word, I can press F7 and it spell checks for me. The bulletin board does not support spell check. If the best you can do to discredit me is accuse me of misspelling a word which I used with gramatical correctness, you really are grasping at straws. And just to point out how ignorant your statement on my inability to compose rational thought is... You've also excluded about two billion other people who don't write English from having a rational thought because they too, are unable to spell "ascension".

The comparision which I made and you misread, is comparing the SITUATION of the Reichstag Fire with the SITUATION of 9/11. In both scenarios, events occured which were of national disaster caliber, and in both scenarios, they were seized upon and manipulated by those wanting to further their own agendas.

It's been over 10 years since I read the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, and my recollection is that Hitler framed the Reichstag Fire as being started by the enemies of his party, and went on from there to push the need for a strong dictatorship to protect the country from the evils of the politics taking place in the Reichstag.

In the case of Bush and 9/11, he used the shock and terror induced by the attack to push the Patriot Act through. And further expanded upon the "evil terrorlst" frame, by linking Iraq and Saddam to al Qaida.

I'm not quite sure how taking away my rights as a citizen makes me safer. The country would be a lot safer if we were to cease pursuing policies which piss off the rest of the world.

I'm going to admit that I'm pissed, and that your personal attack got to me. It did everything you wanted it to. Yet rather than refute and strike back, I'm going to point out that you had to take it to a personal level, and call me an ungrateful jerk.

If you believe that America is doing anything other than protecting our national interests around the world, you are sadly mistaken and brainwashed by the media. Don't get me wrong, it's really easy to believe that you are on the winning team. The human mind wants to associate itself with good, right and just causes. There are companies that make millions of dollars a year framing every issue that you read about, to ensure that it is pallitable to the largest majority... or at least, the majority who bother to vote (all whopping 30 or so percent of the population).

[Phax]

BMW_Dave,

Since you've taken things personally and lashed out in the typical, I'm going to refute your ideas and call you a moron that every ignorant American kid learns how to do in junior high school, I'm going to pick up the crap that you spewed across the bulletin board, and redirect it back in a positive, constructive way.

What do you, as an American, gain from us being in Iraq?

[szh]

I mean if we didnt enter WW2 we would almost for sure be speaking German

Are you aware that there was another earlier period in US history where we came a lot closer to having German be spoken here? Right after the US of A was formed, there was a lot of debate about what the official language of the new nation should be! Since the US had "rebelled" against the British, there was a strong faction that said that we should pick a different language than English. The vote was very close - German lost by a single vote, and so we speak English in this country.

People need to brush up on their US history - and not have an immigrant like me tell them facts like this!

Z

[szh]

If I hear one more person say we could have spent 200 billion on health, education, etc....I will most certainly throw up! We spend more on education per student than any industialized country except Switzerland...money doesn't always fix things...especially in the hands of bureaucrats!

For all the money we spend, many studies show that high-school kids in the US are among the worst educated of the "industrialized" nations.

You are right, money does not always solve problems.

Z

[Phax]

If I hear one more person say we could have spent 200 billion on health, education, etc....I will most certainly throw up! We spend more on education per student than any industialized country except Switzerland...money doesn't always fix things...especially in the hands of bureaucrats!

At least when money is in the hands of bureaucrats, we as citizens have the illusion of having control over how it gets spent. When the money is left in the hands of private individuals, it gets spread out all over the place. These days, it's being invested offshore. There is more economic growth taking place in Asia, than in the US. THAT IS A PROBLEM!

As an American citizen, I'd rather spend $20 for a t-shirt made by some kid being paid minimum wage in the ghetto, than $5 for a t-shirt made by some kid paid .25 cents an hour in Malaysia. That's what being an American is, supporting your country... even if it costs you more. You know why I'd pay? Because the guy in the ghetto making me t-shirt has a JOB, and MY money is staying in MY country.

But I also am much too in touch with reality to believe that things will change. We put $200 billion into Iraq and not into the inner city because the Middle East is of 'strategic importance'. The ghetto is under control. They're not going to rise up any time soon, and if they do, there are controls in place to keep it from exploding.

[szh]

Saddam Hussein was an awful man, and the US should be glad to have him removed from office. However, it was hardly our business to do. Was he sponsoring Al Quida? Probably.

Actually, no. Saddam was a secular individual and did not want religious extremists to have any power. Osama bin Laden and Al Queda wanted to get rid of him. That is documented in many things I have read.

Z

[BMW_Dave]

Reality check now: The US couldn't hold NK or Viet Nam and is completely committed in Iraq. We're talking military control.

Muslims see the US first and foremost as a cultural and economic imperialist. The recent invasion completes the hat trick.

If all this "free the poor Iraqis" stuff was the real goal of the invasion, why did the administration lie about it by saying WMD and AQ were the official objects?

Read the "Presidential Letter" and take off the rose colored glasses.

O.K. Vinny, I will take a deep breath and say first, that I wish political discussions would be relegated to political discussion boards....but since this topic was opened, and you have now "engaged" me I will respond. BTW, I am a Liberterian, so I have some problems with the Iraqui situation, but I do not in any way liken it to Vietnam:

1. The US most certainly could have "held" NK or Vietnam had it not been for a lack of "statesmen" vs. politicians. I know that you know that. We truly are a compassionate nation...tactical nuclear weapons would have ended either of those wars pretty quickly, but I don't think the American people or the world community would have accepted the civilian casualties.

2. I have a hard time taking off the "rose colored glasses" when I see film on PBS of thousands of Kurdish men, women, and babies dead in the streets from SH's gassing..."political enemies" being tied and shot in the head on a regular basis. God only knows what was not filmed.

3. I really do believe in "carrying a big stick" and wielding it if necessary. I have a feeling you were not a Reagan supporter, but if you don't think his policies brought about the end of the Cold War...well then I guess you will probably vote for a guy named Kerry.

4. By no means am I naive enough to think that we haven't had some bad policies in the past and I am sure we will in the future, but for the most part, I think we are a pretty honorable country.

5. Capitalism is by no means a perfect economic system...I wish it were more pure, but I do believe it is the best system out there. There is no other country in the world that gives you the oportunity to succeed...or fail like ours...key words are opportunity and freedom.

6. I am truly sorry that the Muslims think the way they do...having said that, the radical ones took it to us on 9/11 and many thousands of others were gleeful....

7. I am not yet convinced that WMD's won't be found, there's a helluva lot of sand in Iraq...never mind...I am pretty sure what your mindset is...you and I would never agree on politics I would guess. The bottom line is that we are the world's greatest superpower...that is an awesome responsibility. I don't agree with us sending troops into harms way for political reasons, but as I said, with freedom and power such as we have, it is a heavy burden to bear.

Peace

[Phax]

For all the money we spend, many studies show that high-school kids in the US are among the worst educated of the "industrialized" nations.

You are right, money does not always solve problems.

Z

Exactly. Our education system sucks, and it's only getting worse. Standardized testing, please?! Gimme a break. Teaching a kid to take a test is not the same as developing a mind to think.

[szh]

Well, with the exception of maybe Jimmy Carter. He wasn't good enough at lieing to make it in the white house. Agood man thou.

Whatever his other faults, I consider Carter one of the best Presidents the US has had. For one very simple reason: under his administration, it sorta became policy for the US government to remove (first by warning) aid to any country whose government and leadership committed human rights violations.

This changed life in many countries for the better.

Z

[yashin]

Don't tell me that it couldn't be used better on education.

The best business school in canada, and one of the top in the whole costs around 2 800 usd per year.

Harvard costs around 26 000 per year.

The money could be better spent on a million things.

[Phax]

I'm all for where George Washington was coming from. America needs to focus on America, and to hell with the rest of the world. If they want our help, they can send envoys to kowtow to us, begging and pleading for us to dispatch our troops.

In the mean while, we can figure out how to improve the lives of Americans. How about affordable food for everyone? Classes in school that show Americans how to cook for themselves, and eat a healthy diet. Wellness programs that promote a healthy, active lifestyle.

Oh, sorry... I'm stupid, forget all that nonsense. What would America be without the multi-trillion dollar medical / pharmacutical industry? We're better off treating the symptoms after the fact, than preventing them. There's more money in treatment than prevention.

Besides, wellness and a healthy body are just crazy, new age ideas. Qigong, that crazy, 3000 year old Eastern energy science? Bah, that's for the fruits and nuts in California (and who knows how many millions of Chinese).

[sarcasm]I'd rather that a buncha non-English speaking fools in Iraq who can't spell ascension right get the benefits of my tax dollars. I mean, screw my neighbor... there's no sense in developing governmental programs to show him how to live a better life. That's just a waste of money, that could be better left in the pockets of my fellow countrymen, to spend on $100+ dollar shoes made for pennies on the dollar by slave labor in Asia.[/sarcasm]

[BMW_Dave]

I want to apologize for getting so worked up over this issue...if I remember correctly, this is the "Nissan Infiniti Car Owner's Forum". It is obvious that there are people here on the left, the right, and some in the middle. I grew up in the South (yes I still capitalize it) and I am very conservative in my views...that does not mean that I am trying to get your kids to pray in school or anything of that sort. I actually lean more towards Libertarianism these days, so I guess I am getting wiser.

If anyone wants to email me personally on these subjects, you will find my address on my profile. This is not the place for political discussion... I just get tired of America bashing...some dissension is good, but never ever forget the prices that were paid for you to have that freedom. God bless America.

Peace out...

[ilovedrifting]

bmw dave

you are my hero

[BMW_Dave]

Don't tell me that it couldn't be used better on education.

The best business school in canada, and one of the top in the whole costs around 2 800 usd per year.

Harvard costs around 26 000 per year.

The money could be better spent on a million things.

That is because Canadian taxpayers subsidize it, yashin, you live in a Socialist country. If you want to go to college for free, move to Sweden...last time I checked they take about 80 cents of every dollar you earn there...that's why Volvo builds most of their cars in other countries.

There are many fine state business schools in the U.S. that don't cost 26 K/yr.

Phax, my friend...I would amost think you were a Libertarian except that you obviously think the government (our tax dollars)is very good at handling money, and those bad corporate guys are our worst enemies...God I hope you are young...you will learn...and yes I am sorry, but there are a lot of "fruits and nuts" in CA...my girlfriend's daughter attends UCLA...we are concerned about her...lol!

Read this book by a libertarian...it will make you wiser. Just try to get past the title...."The Terrible Truth about Liberals". O.K....this is it...I want to get back to throttle bodies and synthetic oils

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obi...ance:)

[VimyJ]

Iraq had nothing to do with American freedom or any threat thereto. That is the whole point.

The French among those were smart enough to oppose the out and out power play (or was it "Mom and apple pie") that is Iraq. The administration has blown $10s of billions.

No WMD and no AQ in Iraq. Let's not forget the official reasons given to congress and the nation. Over 800 US dead.

Interesting times ahead.

[Phax]

Phax, my friend...I would amost think you were a Libertarian except that you obviously think the government (our tax dollars)is very good at handling money, and those bad corporate guys are our worst enemies...God I hope you are young...you will learn...and yes I am sorry, but there are a lot of "fruits and nuts" in CA...my girlfriend's daughter attends UCLA...we are concerned about her...lol!

I don't think the government is good at handling our tax dollars. I believe that we live in a country with a system that COULD be used for the good of it's people. Yet we also live in a country where only about 30% of those eligible to vote, do so. :help In turn, that leads to a system which is setup to serve a small elite... and I can't fault it. Those who get organized to put their agenda into action, should have their agenda forwarded... so long as it doesn't infringe upon the rights of others.

Corporations are all about making money, and it is easier for them to make money in other countries. That's a sad state of affairs.

As for your girlfriend's daughter, at least she's at a good school. Although I live in California, I'm not a big fan of the place. The diversity is nice, but the plasticity of the population gets to me. I'm really hating on the trend among attractive women to dress like 80's rejects.