The Engine Battle

[theINVINCIBLEone]

Yeah yeah I'm new. But been reading this forum and other forums for quite a while. Plus I'm an Nissan jock too.

Anyway, lately you see a battle between engines.Especially the SR20DET vs. KA24DE.

Personally they both are hardass engines. Both got pros and cons, but yet, these Nissan beasts could be notorious.

See, I'm in the process of gettin' myself a 240sx. Low-mileage, between 89-94. But not sure to get a SOHC or DOHC or a swap. of course a swap is NOT the only answer. But I am willing to work with the KA. (you can also check out Modified magazine, since they working on a KA engine pushin 400 or more hp). I've been doing a sh*t load of research on both engines.

THEN, I came across with my ol' boys at Maxima.org. They said keep the car I got now and work it better than the 240.The car I got right now is a 88 Maxima. With a VG30E engine.

Then I thought the 240 has more potential in every category. But yet I think the only potential in my ride is the engine, everything else naw!

So help me out here. Would I be better off using my saved money I HAVE NOW, buy a used decent 240, and sell my Maxima to build a notorious engine in the 240? OR Stick what I got and fix it?

[theINVINCIBLEone]

oh yeah, my maxima's engine right now has some minor problemsand as well as my exterior and suspension

[nlzmo400r]

haha, thats just cause u have 2 posts bro, stick around, and once your post count goes up, itll change, also, the maxima's vg3o does have potential, but it depends how far u want to go, if you want a 5oohp track beast, then defintely get a 24o, but if u just want a nice 25ohp or so 'fun' daily driver, maybe you should consider sticking with the maxima, its all really a personal call, also, if you're a 'drifter' u have to get the RWD 24o

[theINVINCIBLEone]

yeah a daily driver streetcar thingbut I don't appreciate they way My Maxima is rollin' right now. It got a few problems. Probably needs a rebuilt or somethin'. It has 139K on it. Plus, I need new brackets to hold the headlight assemblies and a front bumper. ANOTHER paint job even I got one a year ago. Plus it was in a accident, don't have tasteful image, and less aftermarket support. But the engine is potential. Then yet I dig the 240 for a daily streetcar.

[nlzmo400r]

like i said, all depends on what u want, u almost wont find an s13 that doesnt need work, but if your maxima is too beat up, get rid of her and either finda newer maxima , or a 24o

[pstickne]

Keep the Max until you can find a good 240 at a good price... :-)[no point rushing yourself to get a 300k rust-bucket with thrown piston and frozen diff....]

I love my 240 S13 SE--almost everything stock and it still handles like a dream. That being said, it isn't much larger than a king-sized sardine can on wheels (I have to take off my hat or I'll brush the roof :P).

Also, don't forget the CA/RB/KA[D]ET/VG/VQ engines. (Just wanted to throw that in :-)

[andrave]

maxima is heavy and FWD and thats not going to play in its favor in any performance contest, especially against the fairly lightweight and nimble RWD chassis of the 240sx.

[240sxJay]

Something I've been pondering on as well. I've bought countless magazines, reading tons of post. What to do what to do. This is basically going to be a street car. The thing is on my S14 97 (stock, not LE or SE) it only has 81000 miles on it. It's in no way of need to do a swap but I do want to fix it up. I get very little support .....and I mean very little support for the KA. Even the mag's put down and crap on the KA. The buzz right now is SR20, soon maybe the RB25? Who knows. I need some opinions from people I will go out either way, and if you do suggest KA, why? :P

I love being a KA owner, I love my engine, but with such little support you can see why it's hard for me and many others out there to decide to change.

-=Jay=-

[nlzmo400r]

the KA actually has decent support,but u know that everything JDM will always sell 1ox more than us spec stuff, with the KA's low compression and iron block, its begging for forced induction, its a very stout motor, and you'll get slightly more toruqe when u turbo the KA (at perhaps 1opsi) than u would an SR at the same boost

[240sxJay]

I dont' mean to run off on a rant or repeat myself but this question keeps me up at night. Why do 80% of people switch to SR? Is it more cost efficient? Less parts for the KA? Basically I don't want to build up the KA, knowing that I would've been happier with the SR. True the purpose is a "Street" car but I also want it to haul ***. I guess what I'll have to do is build up the KA and if i'm not happy with it do the motor swap ><, sigh!!!

-=Jay=-

BTW, if I DO the swap, it doesn't alter the suspension, brakes, exhaust, etc does it? Then it would be really pointless to fix the KA if there is a SR in my future

[nlzmo400r]

no it doesnt alter all the suspension things, and the reason people do it is cause its JDM and it has a turbo, the SR really isnt much better (if any IMO) than a well built KA

[cosmo]

most people do the swap, solely so they can say they simply have an SR20. You could build a turbo KA for less than an SR front clip. Then you'll have more torque than an SR could ever dream of.

[nlzmo400r]

most people do the swap, solely so they can say they simply have an SR20. You could build a turbo KA for less than an SR front clip. Then you'll have more torque than an SR could ever dream of.

i wouldnt neccassarily say ever dream of, and the SR is capable of more power overall (if you're searching for 5oo+hp), however the KA is very turbo compatible, iron block and such, great durability, and the KA does have slightly more torque than the SR

[240sxJay]

Mainly the SR20 can put out more hp is because the stock produces more? I know the SR20 can acquire more hp than the KA, what is the reason for that?

-=Jay=-

[pstickne]

What I find LACKING in all these "engine" discussions is the lack of mention as to WHERE the engines make their power. (This should idealy include links and references to various power graphs/etc...)

KA series engines are over-square (read: torque-filled 'lil bastards) and are (generally--I'm sure there are exceptions...) have ALOT lower RPM limit than an SR series engine (and thus have a very left-squashed power graph).

From http://www.datsuns.com/Tech/tech_dept.htm under "Horsepower defined and explained":Quote »Because (to quote a friend), "It is better to make torque at high rpm than at low rpm, because you can take advantage of *gearing*.[/quote]It is generally interesting reading with lots of formulas and other good bits, but to sum it up:Quote »One will tend to *feel* about as fast as the other to the driver, but the LT1 will actually be significantly faster than the L98, even though it won't pull any harder....There are numerous examples of this phenomenon. The Integra GS-R, for instance, is faster than the garden variety Integra, not because it pulls particularly harder (it doesn't), but because it pulls *longer*. It doesn't feel particularly faster, but it is.[/quote]Of course, you could just makes -tons- (and I do mean -tons-) of torque a low RPM and then have crazy gearing...

I'm not trying to bash a KA[D]ET motor--it'd kick the crap out of my N/A, but I'm hoping to increase the depth of "engine battles".

Comparing a KAT@250HP and a SRT@250HP is just like comparing a AMD K-7 @ 2GHz and an Intel Pentium 4 @ 2Ghz -- apples to oranges.

[pstickne]

Quote »Mainly the SR20 can put out more hp is because the stock produces more? I know the SR20 can acquire more hp than the KA, what is the reason for that?[/quote]HP is a _FUNCTION_ of TORQUEHP = (TORQUE x RPM / 5252)

The stock S15 SRDET puts out about 250HP but only about 200 lb-ft of torque.

[cosmo]

i wouldnt neccassarily say ever dream of, and the SR is capable of more power overall (if you're searching for 5oo+hp), however the KA is very turbo compatible, iron block and such, great durability, and the KA does have slightly more torque than the SR

It's not that the KA isn't capable of 500 hp. You just don't have many a people trying to max out their KA's because not too many people turbo them for huge #'s. Which is kind of stupid.

Think about it this way.

Most if not all high powered SR's in Japan are built with strokers.Which, you guessed it, raises the displacement to 2150cc (or so) or 2.2 liter depending on how you look at it.

Why do they do that? More torque in the bottom end, and it raises the HP ceiling just a little bit, because eventually you'll run out of space to make more power.

All while the KA is sitting at already 2.4 liters, and can go higher.

So the KA has a higher ceiling for power, more torque in the lower rev range, and more displacement.

And why is there more SR's at the high(500) hp range? Because most people go down the well beaten path.

It's not that far away that someone will show the masses that KA is the way to go for more power, and for cheaper. And let's not forget the torque advantage

[nlzmo400r]

all of you make very valid points, and this is those are the reasons, if i still had my 24o, id keep the KA (instead of SR, however an RB is my engine of choice) and turbo it, i agree with most people not seeing the importance of the power band, almost all honda drivers are so proud of their 2oohp rsx (with only 14o ft lbs of tq :rolleyes) but what they dont realize, is that 2oohp is only accesible at 65oo rpm or so, until vtec kicks in, the lil honda motors arent much to write home about, which is how they are designed to be. There are many reasons for this, but ill still take torque and a great powerband over peak hp anyday

[cosmo]

yeah so many people are so proud about the power they're making at 8000 rpm. Good for you. Good for your ego. Good for a fun street car? HELL NO!!!!!

[nlzmo400r]

whenever i drive my friends 99 eclipse 5spd, its fun, but coming out of turns you have to be hitting 5k or higher to really fell it, while in the 93 24osx SE 5spd, as long as you're above 2k, you can blast out of corners which makes for a much funner rided

[pstickne]

In my S13 I hardly ever go above 4k RPM and like to hover as close to 2k as I can (4th gear @ 35mph--I usually skip 3rd)... wondering what other peoples driving habits are like.

Also, I wasn't advocating a 15k RPM engine (for streetability :-), rather an engine with a mid-6k peak. On a sidenote, what is the feasability/reliability/issues associated with upping a KA RPM limit (and making it useable)?

[Stuntman240]

which is faster a ka or a sr running the same boost from the same aftermarket turbo exhaust,etc.

[nlzmo400r]

depends on how high the boost is, and all kinds of other obstacles, the SR may be quicker in a straight line, or open course (assuming you're talking about 12psi or so) but the KA i imagine would be quicker on a tight course, because of all the low end power of the KA, you can come out of tight corners at lower RPMs and still have the power you need for quick exiting

[Stuntman240]

thanks that is exactly what ive been wanting to know. kadt here i come:ylsuper

[droptopsilvia]

yeah so many people are so proud about the power they're making at 8000 rpm. Good for you. Good for your ego. Good for a fun street car? HELL NO!!!!!

are you kidding? if you want any kind of power out of a 4-banger its gotta spin fast and in my opinion a car that spins to 8K is more streetable than one that was putting out max power at 5K...why? because its staged normal driving using no gas making decent power to get you around town...or rpms all the way up screaming around as fast as it'll take you...as long as it doesn't take you a minute to get to 8K your good to go, the power is there when you need it and its economical when you need it to be.if you want low end power and torque and you dont wanna rev your engine high get a V-8

I used to have an integra GS-R that I put several grand into and no it wasn't fast up to 3500RPM but after that she screamed all the way to 8+K. what an intoxicating sound! and it smoked camaros and mustangs alike! without a turbo! the only problem with it was the fact that my front wheels drove it. LOL BTW: if you're coming out of a corner with less than 4K you lost! thats just how it works keep the revs up launch with the revs upotherwise you just need to learn how to drive!

[McAdam]

interesting discussion. I'll throw my 2 cents in. its up to the individual. if you want hi end hp, go for it, if you want low end torque, go for that. I want it all! I'm making a ca19det. those motors scream to about 9000rpm, sonds like fun, don't it? problem is, no low end. so, I am strapping a garrett VNT-25 turbo on it with a T28 cold side.

but, McAdam, what is a VNT-25 turbo, I've never heard of it you say

a vnt-25 turbo is a T25, I know smallish, that has Variable Nozzle Turbine. which means it can vary the AR ratio on the exhaust side from small AR for quick spool up to large AR for high RMP power. a guy put one on a mitsubishi truck that used to have a IHI RB25 on it. he had the same high end hp, but the low end torque numbers were astounding. he went from 117lbs/ft @2500 to 157lbs/ft@2500. thats like a 40% jump.

so, if you set up your engine right, you can have them both. or if you want a sick motor, just build a KA22DE with a L20B fully counterweighted ccrankshaft and a shorter stroke.

poo on the SR20, its a fad motor. its not a bad motor, it just isn't the all conquering motor that everyone and the magazines think it is. Fact is, there are better motors out there, especially for the price. look into a FJ20ET.

McAdam

[droptopsilvia]

VNT= genuis... diesel engines have been using them for years.the only other thing that need to be researched is running turbos parrallel as opposed to sequential...use a smaller turbo to spool the larger one faster it makes sense if you think about it. the only downside would be the smaller one burning out quikly...unless you set your wastegate up to divert the exhaust past the smaller turbo and straight into the larger one after say 10psi or something like that...but thats all physics...

as for the ever-growing motor battle and which one is better.....none of them are! but they can all be made to be better as for stock thats a whole 'nother story....as far as nissan goes RB is the best...The SR is over-rated but its also one hell of an engine...then there is the CA the SR's predecessor a truly amazing engine just old the reason nissan switched to the SR was cost of production Iron is more expensive and harder to work with...add a little displacement and make the block out of more affordable aluminum=more $$ for nissan.as for the KA a nice solid iron block but inadequate head and valvetrain...nice large displacement though, mate it with a nice port+polish job and some new valves, cams, springs and you are on the way to building a beast...It's up to you to use the weapon of your choice...but with $$$$$$spent in the right places you wont be bringing a pocket-knife to a gun fight...you'll be the guy or girl with the sniper rifle picking off the guy with the gun before he even knows your fighting.....HAPPY TUNING/SWAPPING!!!!

[240sxJay]

LOL, this is so interesting, but what I love what I hear about the KA motor. I am a proud owner of a KA...which in a year or two probably switch to an RB ...but NOT before i make this KA a real beast. However....!!! I was a long and proud honda owner (acura integra 93, FAVORITE CAR!) Anyways, i'm on my way to building the KA beast, your opinions would help much. I posted this in 240/syliva technical about asking for opinons on a "Stage I" ...I have the exhaust, putting the headers and intake soon. What would be a good next step? And yes before I even started boosting this car I made a FULL tune up:

Changed fuel filter, cleaned injectors (took to shop), changed distributor cap and rotor, flushed the radiator, checked for leaks, and i'm going to replace the airfilter/pipe soon.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------=Jay=-

[nlzmo400r]

LOL, this is so interesting, but what I love what I hear about the KA motor. I am a proud owner of a KA...which in a year or two probably switch to an RB ...but NOT before i make this KA a real beast. However....!!! I was a long and proud honda owner (acura integra 93, FAVORITE CAR!) Anyways, i'm on my way to building the KA beast, your opinions would help much. I posted this in 240/syliva technical about asking for opinons on a "Stage I" ...I have the exhaust, putting the headers and intake soon. What would be a good next step? And yes before I even started boosting this car I made a FULL tune up:

Changed fuel filter, cleaned injectors (took to shop), changed distributor cap and rotor, flushed the radiator, checked for leaks, and i'm going to replace the airfilter/pipe soon.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------=Jay=-

i dont mean to offend you, or show any disrespect, but why was your 93 your 'favorite' car?

[240sxJay]

I loved the look of it, and on Honda's you can rev extremely high. Which was nice, it didn't have low end power, so what. When I needed to punch it would come out a champ.I had nearly 200,000 miles on the car never had a problem. It was stylish, was light, it was hatchback! (I love hatchbacks.) From the looks, to the way it drove, and handled was very nice. HOWEVER! It was FWD (GAY!!) but I didnt' mind. It was also my first ride and love. Engine wise, compared to my 240 s14, honda's are a joke. VTEC is such old technology, they lack serious torque , they are FWD ....Yes the integra was my favorite car but soon perhaps the 240 will replace it? Only time can tell

FYI I've been to Japan and honda's are looked upon as Pieces of ****, it's the 4th best selling car when I was out there. Nissan was 1st, and extremely close 2nd was Toyota. 3rd Suprisingly I think was Ford. (So many damn explorers in Japan) and 4th was honda. It's funny in the U.S how Honda's have been so supreme. There time is over, Nissan will soon take over.