Tell me about Saab's & Subaru's

[Rex]

Looking to replace my 95 SC400 and going to go with something more "useful", my short list.

2005-6 Saab 9-2x Aero
2006 & up Saab 9-3 Aero SportCombi (Wagon)
2005 & up Subaru Legacy GT Wagon
2005 & up Impreza Wagon (WRX-ish)
2005 & up Outback XT Wagon

So, tell me why I shouldn't be looking at these are what I need to verify has been fixed, etc.

[frapjap]

Looking to replace my 95 SC400 and going to go with something more "useful", my short list.

2005-6 Saab 9-2x Aero
2006 & up Saab 9-3 Aero SportCombi (Wagon)
2005 & up Subaru Legacy GT Wagon
2005 & up Impreza Wagon (WRX-ish)
2005 & up Outback XT Wagon

So, tell me why I shouldn't be looking at these are what I need to verify has been fixed, etc.

2005-6 Saab 9-2x Aero- Great car. The WRX that hasn't been abused. Dont get an auto.
2006 & up Saab 9-3 Aero SportCombi (Wagon)- I like 'em but dont know much.
2005 & up Subaru Legacy GT Wagon- Highly recommend! Jesda, Joel, and I ranted and raved about the Legacy on Chris' last "what car should I be thinking about thread."
2005 & up Impreza Wagon (WRX-ish)- Buy from a decent seller and it'll likely be in better shape, mechanically. But you already knew that.
2005 & up Outback XT Wagon- Are you a lesbian?

Have any interest in a Volvo XC-70?

[VQpwrdSE-R]

My new rule of thumb... Treat every Saab as if it has an STD and stay the f*** away. My wife has a 06 9-3 from the GM- SAAB years and it currently has 66,000 miles. It has had more problems then my car with double the miles. Expect dumb things and electrical issues. A dash sensor went out $700, the hvac fan is making noise and no place other than the dealer carries them. The CD player died years ago and the dash design makes it impossible to replace with an aftermarket. Oil filters cost around $16. 2 different garages have been unable to diagnose the drop in rpms with associated vibrations. To make it worse the resale value has dropped significantly in the last 2 years.

[Rex]

Is it the 4 cyl or V6?

I've heard the V6 9-3 (Aero) is a much better car. I have a co-worker that's had 1 for over a year and his only issue is front brake pad availability, b/c they have 2 different size front brakes on the 9-3 Aero.

[Rex]

2005-6 Saab 9-2x Aero- Great car. The WRX that hasn't been abused. Dont get an auto.
2006 & up Saab 9-3 Aero SportCombi (Wagon)- I like 'em but dont know much.
2005 & up Subaru Legacy GT Wagon- Highly recommend! Jesda, Joel, and I ranted and raved about the Legacy on Chris' last "what car should I be thinking about thread."
2005 & up Impreza Wagon (WRX-ish)- Buy from a decent seller and it'll likely be in better shape, mechanically. But you already knew that.
2005 & up Outback XT Wagon- Are you a lesbian?

Have any interest in a Volvo XC-70?

I'm trying to stay away from AT's but would buy one if the conditions are right.

The hard thing to find is a Subaru from the years I want that doesn't have 140k on it

An Outback can be turned into a Legacy, and is less likely to have been driven hard.

I've looked at some XC's, but haven't seen anything real interesting ... no a V70 R interests me, but stretches the budget more than I want.

Here's the kind of Outback XT I'd like.

[Jesda]

Saab.com is back online. Looks like they're getting ready to export replacement parts to US dealers. Also, they're looking into continuing production of the 9-3, most likely for China and Russia rather than North America.
For reliability, 07+ is best for the 9-3. The issue you'll probably run into at least once is the electronic key. Costs a lot to replace and reprogram. The interiors tend to rattle and squeak after 75k however they're a bit more fun to drive than the Legacy and Impreza. I -almost- pulled the trigger on a 2003 9-3 a couple days ago. It auctioned for $2500 with 101k.


I think the 9-2x or Legacy wagon is the way to go. My aunt has a naturally aspirated 2009 Impreza wagon she bought new and so far its been faultless. Hers does not have the CVT. Fuel economy is down in the low to mid 20s. Visibility, traction, and build quality are outstanding.

[Jesda]

And watch out for head gaskets on 2.5L Subarus. Like the Cadillac Northstar V8, the engine has to be removed in order to pull the head. Repair costs can quickly exceed three grand.

[MinisterofDOOM]

Here's the kind of Outback XT I'd like.

I love that generation Legacy. Even the sedan looks good. I'd take one with the EZ36.

[Rex]

And watch out for head gaskets on 2.5L Subarus. Like the Cadillac Northstar V8, the engine has to be removed in order to pull the head. Repair costs can quickly exceed three grand.

This is exactly what I'm trying to find out. I've read a mixed bag of info regarding head gaskets on both the 2.0 & 2.5.

The more (good) info the better.

[Rex]

Here's the kind of Outback XT I'd like.
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdg7d ... 2_1280.jpg

I love that generation Legacy. Even the sedan looks good. I'd take one with the EZ36.

I'm pretty sure that's an Outback ... which (from what I've read) is really just a Legacy w/ cladding.

[Jesda]

Friend of mine just bought a 2003 Legacy Outback with 100k. The HGs were recently replaced so he should be set for another 100k.

Another friend of mine was considering a high-mileage Outback that hadn't had its HGs replaced yet at 170k; I told him to avoid it. There's a poll on a Subie forum I was looking at a few months back that seemed to suggest that 99-03 were the most failure-prone years, but that could also be due to age and mileage with the later model years soon to follow.


Pics:
http://allwheeldriveauto.com/subaru-hea ... d-part-ii/

[Rex]

... There's a poll on a Subie forum I was looking at a few months back that seemed to suggest that 99-03 were the most failure-prone years, but that could also be due to age and mileage with the later model years soon to follow.

That's consistent with what I've seen & read on other sites, and I agree it could be due to age & the other years may follow.

Wish I could get a solid answer on if the 2.0 or 2.5 were more inclined.

It also reads like the 2005 9-2x Aero owners (2.0 engine) are able to replace them with the engine in the car. Not sure if the same applies to the 2006 9-2x Aero (2.5 engine).

[Kompresshun]

I looked at the Legacy myself and I thought I would absolutely love it. As Joel(Bubba) told me in the past - the seats absolutely suck in them if you plan on doing long commutes, or traveling. I had an '05 Legacy Outback AWD wagon for a day and enjoyed the way it drove, but the seats were stiff and uncomfortable. It was also the ugliest color i've ever seen, but putting that aside it just didn't feel very refined over the previous models except for the interior. Even the interior was still a bit stone age in some areas though.

I also had an '04 Legacy AWD sedan for 3 days and I loved driving it A LOT more than the Outback. It handled great and had surprisingly good power for it being N/A. I still wouldn't have bought it though, because again - the seats were quite stiff. I drove it to Louisville twice and it was not pleasant trip. The '04 also had a lot less legroom than the '05 which was surprising to me - with the seat all the way back my knees still hit the dash and my 2yr old had to keep her legs down in her carseat. This one had 70k miles on it and it already felt like something with 200k miles on it. It looked like it was well cared for, but the interior materials were creaking and making noise, along with just feeling very very cheap overall inside. I love Subarus, but after driving these two, I don't think i'd buy one for a daily driver.

Now as far as reliability goes - my sister in law has had a 95 Impreza Outback and now has a 02 Forester. They treat their vehicles like crap and the only reason the first one was replaced is because she wrecked it 7 times. The last time finally did it in. Other than that, they just keep on going no matter how you treat them.

I've always heard that Saabs are a maintenance nightmare, but I have no personal experience with them.

Are you dead set on something AWD, since you already have the Allroad? What about something like a Mazdaspeed 3 or Mazdaspeed 6?

[Rex]

Thanks for the input

... I've always heard that Saabs are a maintenance nightmare, but I have no personal experience with them.

Are you dead set on something AWD, since you already have the Allroad? What about something like a Mazdaspeed 3 or Mazdaspeed 6?

I've heard the same about Saabs, but also know a couple guys that have had little to no problem with theirs.

AWD isn't a must, but the MazdaSpeeds are a bit out of my price range <$9k.

[Kompresshun]

So you're about in the same price range as I was.

What about a Volvo? The XC wagon is pretty cool and is under that price range.

I ran across an MazdaSpeed3 down here for $8,900 with 70k miles. The only reason I didn't jump on it was lack of space for trips with the wife and kid.

You may like the Subaru, especially if you're shorter than me(6'3"). I just didn't care for the seats in it and the build quality.

[skydragoness]

97, 98 2.5 DOHC EJ motors had 'internal' head gasket leaks that pretty much went without warning. (Not in the year group you're looking at, but I had to mention it). 99 and onward the EJ 2.5 was changed to SOHC design and they still get headgasket leaks, but they're slow external ones and usually show themselves around 150k+. Supposedly I've read/heard that 2005 and onward Subaru had redesigned the heads again and they're more stout. IMO, if you're getting a low mileage and unmodified model I would not be concerned.
I've never heard of headgaskets going on the 2.0 turbo, but there is a question of oil bearings failing but I think that's more about whether or not the previous owner took care of the car and/or they modified it heavily and didn't invest in a oil cooler. I'm a fan of the Forester XT turbo..such a sleeper.

I would go for the Saab 9-2x, they're hard to find in manual, and if you're looking for the turbo (9-2x Aero-aka WRX) they're even harder to find.
The interiors are way better and I like the looks better. They're also priced lower than a comparable condition/mileage WRX wagon because of the stigma of the Saab badge. :P

[frapjap]

[Rex]

I would so snatch up a Baja XT w/ stick shift if I could find one w/decent miles in my price range.

[Jesda]

If you do come across a 9-5 wagon, they're quite well made with a lot of old-world quality. With a 13-year run, they had a lot of time to work out the bugs.

Some years are prone to sludge; it's a problem that was remedied in later years. Older 9-5s have PCV updates to alleviate the problem and the oil pan has to be dropped to remove debris. The information displays all have dead pixels but there's a couple companies out there that fix them for $100-$200. Also, the ignition coil packs tend to go out. They're easy to swap so people have been keeping a spare in the trunk. Supposedly there's a more reliable aftermarket IC available now, but I'm not sure.

If you get one with a manual and turbo-4 they're one of the most enjoyable daily drivers in the world, no lie. The only downside is styling that was a bit dated from day one.

[Rex]

Well I have come across a few 9-5 Aero & Arc wagon that I liked ... just felt like they were a bit dated.

I'll have to look at them closer.

I do like this 2006 9-5

[Oatmealman]

And watch out for head gaskets on 2.5L Subarus.the engine has to be removed in order to pull the head. Repair costs can quickly exceed three grand.

This is not even remotely true,they can be done in the car,yes it makes it easier to do out of the car but it is not required.3K for a head job? jesus are you going to god himself for this stuff? Most subaru guys report under 1500 for headgaskets,coolant flush,oil change,and a timing belt with water pump.

[Eikon]

I can share some info with you Keith.

I had an Outback XT last winter.. and I've owned a Saab in the past.. so I can share a little.

I loved the XT.. with only one big complaint. My issue was fuel efficiency. I got 16 city and 22 highway.. For that I might as well have bought an SUV or truck and had even more functionality.

The seats were nice.. I'm not sure what the complaint mentioned above was all about.


The picture you posted above (the red one). that's a standard legacy wagon. The Legacy GT and Outback XT have a hood scoop and the Outback sits higher than the Legacy. The GT and the Outback XT both have the EJ25.. (STI motor) but tuned down to like 250hp instead of the 300 in the STI. The Outback is the same as the Leg GT, except it's got different wheels, brakes, and suspension (lifted). So it's a little better off-road. It's a little worse on-road. The outback rear shocks are a big problem.. the stock ones always go bad.. if you buy one, plan to replace with some KYB's.

Aside from the gas mileage I loved that car.. it was incredible in the snow.. absolutely incredible.. and I didn't even have snow tires on it. The motor was strong despite the weight. Lots of space in the back and the roof rack to boot.. plus you could tow 3500 lbs with it. The huge dual moon-roof in the limited was awesome.

For you.. I'd find a Leg GT. You get that much snow down there and you don't do a lot of off-roading I'm guessing.. So you'll want the lower stance of the Leg GT. You can technically convert Outback to Leg GT by swapping parts if you found a nice deal. You can get either of them in a manual trans, but the outback XT in a manual is a very rare bird. Well.. the Leg GT wagon in manual is very hard to find as well to be honest.


I had a Saab.. I hated it. But, that was a 95 900s. If you were looking at a Saab.. I'd get the "Saabaru".. The 9-2.. rebadged WRX. That's a nice car.. same as the WRX wagon.. just not very big.

[Eikon]

Oh.. and I don't remember hearing much of anything about head gasket issues on the 2.5L motors.
The one thing you will want to ask about is the turbo oil feed line. The first couple model year (05-06) had a little oil filter screen placed near a banjo bolt at the start of the oil feed line to the turbo. That screen would get clogged over time and then restrict oil flow to the turbo.. and thus burn out the turbo. There was a TSB on the issue and it was fixed in many of the vehicles. The one I owned had the turbo replaced at 30k miles because of this issue. You'll want to check with Subaru service records to see if this recall or TSB was performed before buying.. If it wasn't and you've got higher miles you run some big risks with the turbo.

[MinisterofDOOM]

I'm pretty sure that's an Outback ... which (from what I've read) is really just a Legacy w/ cladding.

Outback is a trim level. Legacy is the model. There were Outback Imprezas as well.

That changed with the new ugly "yeah we already make the forester but crossovers are cool man" generation, where the model name for the wagon is now Outback, while the sedan is still the Legacy. Before that, though, they were ALL Legacys. Some of the were also Outbacks.

[Eikon]

I'm pretty sure that's an Outback ... which (from what I've read) is really just a Legacy w/ cladding.

Outback is a trim level. Legacy is the model. There were Outback Imprezas as well.

That changed with the new ugly "yeah we already make the forester but crossovers are cool man" generation, where the model name for the wagon is now Outback, while the sedan is still the Legacy. Before that, though, they were ALL Legacys. Some of the were also Outbacks.

The Outback is technically a separate model from the Legacy during that generation. It's the same unibody, but differences are more than cosmetic. The Outback is built to be the "off-road" variant of the legacy. As such, it has a taller suspension and different brakes and wheels. I think you can also get the 3.0 V6 in the Outback and not in the Legacy.

I think you are correct for the new 2008 and up impreza's though.. In those I think it's just a trim level.

[Rex]

Thanks for chiming in Seth

... The picture you posted above (the red one). that's a standard legacy wagon.

If you look closely, it has Outback roof rail (Legacy are lower profile) and has the door side moldings of an Outback as well. Not to mention the larger/rounder fog light openings. I'm pretty sure it's an Outback on a (normal) Legacy suspension. Anywhoo ...

The 9-2X Aero is on the short list and if I can determine if the 2006+ 9-3 2.0t is a timing chain motor, it will most likely be on the short list as well.

Going to test drive a few this weekend. There's a nice 06 9-3 Aero SportCombi (Wagon) north of Pittsburgh I'd like, but it's just not worth the 10 hour round trip to check it out.

[Jesda]

This is not even remotely true,they can be done in the car,yes it makes it easier to do out of the car but it is not required.3K for a head job? jesus are you going to god himself for this stuff? Most subaru guys report under 1500 for headgaskets,coolant flush,oil change,and a timing belt with water pump.

If you find a cheap and trustworthy local specialist, sure, but typically the engine will be removed by most shops and you will spend up to 3k.

[Eikon]

Thanks for chiming in Seth

... The picture you posted above (the red one). that's a standard legacy wagon.

If you look closely, it has Outback roof rail (Legacy are lower profile) and has the door side moldings of an Outback as well. Not to mention the larger/rounder fog light openings. I'm pretty sure it's an Outback on a (normal) Legacy suspension. Anywhoo ...

Good eyes Keith.. I think you might be right about that. I didn't look closely enough. I stopped at ride height and then commented on it not being the turbo because it's got the flat hood. But, you're right.. the roof rails are higher. I do remember reading about people making the conversion to the legacy suspension. Easy swap and nice results, but you lose the ride height that made the outback more attractive for winter/offroad.

FWIW.. I'd look at a used 9/10 Audi A3 Tdi Wagon. You get the functionality of a wagon, in a nice luxury package and 45 mpgs with the diesel motor.

08+ Passat wagons are nice.


I'm having a hard time making a recommendation for you because I'm not sure what you're after..
Do you want lots of cargo space? like the look of a "sport"wagon? want winter weather ability? want offroad ability? want power/speed/handling? or just "something different".

Help me out by describing what you're after and I can share my opinions with you.

[Rex]

FWIW.. I'd look at a used 9/10 Audi A3 Tdi Wagon. You get the functionality of a wagon, in a nice luxury package and 45 mpgs with the diesel motor.

08+ Passat wagons are nice.


I'm having a hard time making a recommendation for you because I'm not sure what you're after..
Do you want lots of cargo space? like the look of a "sport"wagon? want winter weather ability? want offroad ability? want power/speed/handling? or just "something different".

Help me out by describing what you're after and I can share my opinions with you.

I have an 2004 Audi allroad, it's got off road, winter weather & "hauler" covered. My goal is to replace the 17 yr old Lexus coupe I have with something more "useful". My original list is focused on sporty-ish cars with some carrying capacity that are currently under-valued in the market. I've got a line on a B7/A4 2.0T 6 speed stick Avant, but I'm not sure I want to own 2 Audi's. The A3 TDi is nice, but WAY over my ~$8k price range.

Keep in mind I've primarily driven V8 powered cars for the last 10-12 years, so I'm not looking for a Honda Insight

[Eikon]

given that you already have a big sport wagon, it would be silly to buy another... and one that is worse than what you already have. get the wrx or 9-2, get some mods to boost power and handling and you are set.