Stock rod bolts FTMFL

[21FOX21]

Basically driving and just heard a pop like an intercooler pipe popped but started misfireing, saw hella smoke and metal pieces bouncing behind me on the freeway. It is cylinder one. Valves hit piston alittle when it came apart so I have four bent valves also. Well it took a good beating over the years. Time for me to get some eagle rods made or something.

The Culprit The knife edge crank is a little ruff on the edges now and has a little scuff on one of the journals could have it turned and it should be fine.This is what I saw when I popped the piston out. No rod. It shot out on the freeway somewhere.

The bent one happened a while ago when an injector stuck open and dropped hella fuel in cylinder 4 when I was trying to start it. I just never took it apart to see how bent it was but I still made 400hp with it like that.

[davidricardo86]

Whoa! Thats crazy. Speaking of rod bolts... Man that looks bad. Sorry to hear what happened.

[MeanGreenS13]

sorry to hear... I WANT THE ROD AND PISTON! lol

[r34 gtr]

Nice carnage man. Hope you get it back up and running relatively soon!

[bentvalves]

dang, i dont even wanna say this cause of what could possibly happen (knock on wood) but I want to experience an engine tearing itself apart like that one day

the rod in the center of the above pictured 3 is bent also!

[21FOX21]

Hopefully within 2 months or so it will be together with eagle rods this time.

It is actually all three are bent easier to tell in person.

[float_6969]

Wow, this thread needs an "R" rating. The carnage is too much for the kiddies.

[dash]

sux this happened... especially to your costly motorhow many miles ago was the rebuild ?reckon the rods bolts have been retorqued a few times ?I've been told this weakens the bolts. Or 400hp perhaps near their limit ?was this 'normal' street/occasional strip use ? ...drifting ?what kinda rpm limit were u seeing ?

just curious...exactly what kind of injector stuck open a while back ? stock fuel pressure ? Did you change 'em all ?

[21FOX21]

Not sure about how many miles but it was over a year ago and I drive alot. It was my daily driver plus I took it to the track all the time to drag race and I got to drift events when I can afford them. Reving to 8000.bolts torqued maybe just once after rods were taken out to get shot peened.

It was an RC injector not sure what happened they culdn't figure out what was wrong because when they put it on there machine they said it was normal so they just replaced it for me. Fuel pressure was at like 45psi. No they replaced 2 of them and cleaned and flowed them all and they were all withing 1% of 1200cc

[r34 gtr]

Ive always said that if you are going to blow up a motor, you might as well do it right. You sir knocked it all the way out of the park.

[ser20det]

It is possible do have a pict of the bottom from the front of the engine ?

I want to see where the oil pick up meet in the oil pan.

I know.... that's a weird question but i never opened it so i don't know where the pick up really is.

I have a a small dent in the right/back quarter of the pan. It is safe ?
Modified by ser20det at 7:46 PM 4/1/2009

[21FOX21]

Block is stripped and in the garbage now. Sorry

[boost_boy]

Sorry for your loss, man. I know you've made some good power with this engine, but with the pics you've put, it doesn't appear that the rod bolts were all at fault. Stress caused this and looking at your rods tell me that your motor may have been tuned to make power with boost, but the tuner put your motor on the brink. If you have questions, we can discuss it later, but I have to get some sleep.

Question for all of you, why do you think those rods bent like that?

Dee

Engine tuning 101 folks.

[float_6969]

My guess is that they're bent because the injectors got stuck open and flooded the motor with fuel.

[zero_gripS13]

hydrolock lol... thats my guess.. liquid cannot be compressed.

cold be detenation also.. igniting the combustion on the piston up travel cause them to fight each other and the rod giving in to the 2 forces (upward vs downward)

those r my guesses dee

[mazikowski]

*raises hand*

detonation? like said above, the rod was going up and the fire was pushing down. it's like a terrible mechanical game of chicken where the rod lost hardcore.

[boost_boy]

hydrolock lol... thats my guess.. liquid cannot be compressed.

cold be detenation also.. igniting the combustion on the piston up travel cause them to fight each other and the rod giving in to the 2 forces (upward vs downward)

those r my guesses dee

...........BINGO..............Detonation is the CA's or any mechanical engine's worst enemy. They over-timed the engine to get your desired power. There's the compromise and surely your engine will pay for poor tuning. While the CA is no special engine, it cannot be treated like any other engine that they've tuned before. It's no SR20DET or KA24DE(T) and should not be tuned like one.

One of my friend's/customer's car (overboosted180's) put down over 400 @ the wheels under 6000rpm @ a mere 21psi of boost on pump gas. So we loaded the car with people and loaded the engine with 30psi of boost on pump gas and hit the highway with it trying to destroy the motor; no haps .

So we would take it to the track which was like nearly 100miles from Miami and raced everything that wanted to race. Then only to get one run at the track and repeat the same thing heading back to Miami. he would run this car at over 20psi of daily boost before someone suggested he had a melted piston. So cockily I argued that there was nothing wrong with the motor and if there was something wrong with it, that I would repair free of charge. With his father and him watching me disassemble the motor, I proved my point with no sweat and the engine still looked brand new internally; and that's with a turned crank. The moral of this story was that a properly tuned can take all the abuse you throw at it. A poorly tuned engine might yield you the results you're looking for, but there's a price to pay in the end and I guess you're getting a taste of it.

Bottom line is, your engine got merked from poor tuning my friend. They might be good, but have they ever really tuned any other high-powered CAs before and what were the results? But by no means am I knocking your tuner, just the results of your motor which comes from tuning.

Dee

[dash]

hmmm.... I dunno manIf this car has been running that long, getting beat on @400hp.... I'd say it gave good service imo. Makes me proud of the "little runt".342 ft-lbs is solid torque from a 1.8L at this level of tune. Look around.How many oe rod CA18s have we seen on this forum run/last like this ? Not one iirc.11.7 is 'smokin'... again, how many daily driven 1.8s we see here play at that level ?In my mind this motor had to be tuned decently to accomplish this.

That ET also tells me traction/slicks. I'm thinking (or guessing), when cylinder pressure/torque meets load/traction, it puts the most stress on a rod, in service.Maybe the oe rod/bolts were flirting with their physical limits. Sure the rods could've been hammered due to detonation/tuning, but I'm just adding another viewpoint as a potential variable,Thing is we simply don't have that many successful comparable CA18s to analyze

How much boost was this motor running ? Stock cams ?E85 iirc.... if so, perhaps advanced timing afforded that 342 ft-lbs ?

oh, if I were RC and someone return injectors to me... I'd say nothin' was wrong with 'em too, considering the damage it could cost. I suspect most vendors won't assume responsibility. My neighbour recently dealt with the frustration of shipping his Microtech all the way accross the world to austrailia.... who as expected, claimed it "was fine". He borrowed the same model ecu from a friend 2JZ, plugged in, loaded, ran fine.Microtech had no way of knowing this

[dash]

Quote »overboosted180's put down over 400 @ the wheels under 6000rpm @ a mere 21psi of boost on pump gas. So we loaded the car with people and loaded the engine with 30psi of boost on pump gas and hit the highway with it trying to destroy the motor[/quote]now that's what I call, "standing behind your work" - lol. Gotta respect that!

30psi on pump gas with a stock bottom end ? Quite an impressive feat!what torque did the 400hp dyno ? what was the best ET ? what turbo ?

Quote »he would run this car at over 20psi of daily boost before someone suggested he had a melted piston[/quote]what transpired for him to even entertain that thought, if he was experiencing such success ?I supposed there had to be some problem for u to tear apart a perfectly good running/performing motor ?What turned out to be "the problem" ?

Quote »and that's with a turned crank[/quote]you know of a shop in miami who does good machine work ?

[21FOX21]

So my bolt snapped because of detonation???

I feel like if it was a poor tune it definetly would not have lasted as long as it did daily driven, many dyno runs, racing at the track almost every other weekend, and drifting. For all I know the other rods bent a little at the last drit event I was at when my heater core leaked all over my ecu and fried it.

What you mean it can't be tuned like an SR or KA? Should we run super low to no timing in it?

400@6000 Nice. Torque? Turbo? Bottom end? What did it run? What was wrong that made you tear it down?

I am not saying you don't know what you are talking about I just do not think that is what caused this.
Modified by 21FOX21 at 11:41 AM 4/3/2009

[21FOX21]

hmmm.... I dunno manIf this car has been running that long, getting beat on @400hp.... I'd say it gave good service imo. Makes me proud of the "little runt".342 ft-lbs is solid torque from a 1.8L at this level of tune. Look around.How many oe rod CA18s have we seen on this forum run/last like this ? Not one iirc.11.7 is 'smokin'... again, how many daily driven 1.8s we see here play at that level ?In my mind this motor had to be tuned decently to accomplish this.

That ET also tells me traction/slicks. I'm thinking (or guessing), when cylinder pressure/torque meets load/traction, it puts the most stress on a rod, in service.Maybe the oe rod/bolts were flirting with their physical limits. Sure the rods could've been hammered due to detonation/tuning, but I'm just adding another viewpoint as a potential variable,Thing is we simply don't have that many successful comparable CA18s to analyze

How much boost was this motor running ? Stock cams ?E85 iirc.... if so, perhaps advanced timing afforded that 342 ft-lbs ?

oh, if I were RC and someone return injectors to me... I'd say nothin' was wrong with 'em too, considering the damage it could cost. I suspect most vendors won't assume responsibility. My neighbour recently dealt with the frustration of shipping his Microtech all the way accross the world to austrailia.... who as expected, claimed it "was fine". He borrowed the same model ecu from a friend 2JZ, plugged in, loaded, ran fine.Microtech had no way of knowing this

Yeah ran slicks most of the time. Ran 26 pounds at the track and around town. Just recently put in a Tomei intake cam still stock exhaust cam. Yeah E85 ran more timing than normal but that is the point of using E85.

Damn the sucks for your neighbor.

[boost_boy]

now that's what I call, "standing behind your work" - lol. Gotta respect that!

30psi on pump gas with a stock bottom end ? Quite an impressive feat!what torque did the 400hp dyno ? what was the best ET ? what turbo ?

what transpired for him to even entertain that thought, if he was experiencing such success ?I supposed there had to be some problem for u to tear apart a perfectly good running/performing motor ?What turned out to be "the problem" ?

you know of a shop in miami who does good machine work ?

Overboosted180's car/engine during event specified:

SDS em-3 with 3 bar map

Hybrid 60-1 with custom manifold and HKS wastegate

MSD DIS-2

1000cc injectors

Custom reground camshafts

Stock rods

CP pistons

Machined crank

Cometic Headgasket

Mildly ported/polished head with 3 angle valve job

His car was only ran once at moroso and he allowed me to drive it. And seeing that we drove the hell out of that car on the way there, I didn't want it possibly break something on the track. He had regular street tires on the car with normal air pressure, so I launched the car pretty soft @ only 15psi of boost. The car ran a 14.2@108mph without actually being treated like a drag race car. Just a normal take off to see how it acts and I accepted the time, but was equally impressed with the trap speed as well.

As for his dyno day, someone moved the dip switches on the DIS-2 which changed his rev limit. due to that change, it disagreed with the RPM limit I had set on the SDS which was set @ 8750rpm. As soon as the car would go into boost with that big turbo, it would hit a limiter that I couldn't correct because I didn't have the manual for the DIS-2. So @ 18psi of boost the car put out 389whp and 403 @ 21psi and all this was at or around 5700-5900rpm. Torque numbers varied, but when I get home, I'll look at his torque figures.

Listening to someone from a shop down here (not calling names), suggested that he needs to buy new parts through their shop and that his engine was blown????? And last I remembered, it was running perfectly. Well, he listened, and it's now costing him. they even convinced him that his SDS was not up to the task (yeah, okay).

The problem was that there was no problem mechanically, but the "GREED" factor and how shops take advantage of younger enthusiasts that want to get the most out of their machines. The way his engine was tuned and the way I tune CAs, they won't blow because of soemthing I did. I've detonated enough pistons and even destroyed a head to know what not to do. I don't trust chips burned by others as that is what caused my headaches in the early part of the 2000s.

Dee

[21FOX21]

14.2@108 not bad for your first time racing his car at the track.

Why a dis-2 What type of coils is he running?

Yeah there are shops out here that do that to people also. Even muscle car shops. Happened to a guy I know. Yeah I am pretty sure noboday that know what they are doing would trust those. Someone came in about a month ago to buy a 4g63 block from us because he used an ebay chip and blew his motor.

[mbmbmb23]

Would you be willing to mail me one of the good rod bolts leftover when you rebuild? I'd be willing to mail it to ARP and see what their equivalent is AND SHARE THIS KNOWLEDGE WITH EVERYONE!!! =) (and not keep it secret like the guy on ebay).

thanks,

-M

[nitrohuffer]

So my bolt snapped because of detonation???

I feel like if it was a poor tune it definetly would not have lasted as long as it did daily driven, many dyno runs, racing at the track almost every other weekend, and drifting. For all I know the other rods bent a little at the last drit event I was at when my heater core leaked all over my ecu and fried it.

What you mean it can't be tuned like an SR or KA? Should we run super low to no timing in it?

400@6000 Nice. Torque? Turbo? Bottom end? What did it run? What was wrong that made you tear it down?

I am not saying you don't know what you are talking about I just do not think that is what caused this.

Modified by 21FOX21 at 11:41 AM 4/3/2009

You cant tune a CA18DET like a KA SR. Remember we have a 8(intake) port head and 8(intake) valves and only 4(intake) valves getting fuel sprayed through them! This is one of the biggest problems with modding a CA. This is why I am running 8 injectors with my E85 set up.

When the CA gets ran hard you dont have the added protection of fuel being sprayed over all 8 valves cooling the valve and chamber preventing uneven fuel distribution and hot spots inside the chamber and the valve itself.

Almost every CA that has comes through my shop with broken rods or spun bearings has been detonation related.

Here is another drawback of the dry valve phenomenon pulled these valves from a blown CA18DET...No fuel to clean or cool it =



Modified by nitrohuffer at 12:56 PM 4/4/2009
Modified by nitrohuffer at 1:13 PM 4/4/2009

[nitrohuffer]

Yeah ran slicks most of the time. Ran 26 pounds at the track and around town. Just recently put in a Tomei intake cam still stock exhaust cam. Yeah E85 ran more timing than normal but that is the point of using E85.

Damn the sucks for your neighbor.

Just out of curiosity what AFR were you running on E85 WOT open loop @26psi?

Also what was your total(max) timing and at what rpm?

On most 4g63 or SR's I run 7.3 start of boost -7.0 at top end (E85 AFR) on CA's I run 6.9 at start and 6.7 at top end just to be safe.

Timing varies from set up to set up but generally +3 over pump on ca. My DD 1st gen 4G63 2nd gen is +9 over pump but thats my car and thats on stock 1G DSMmotor with Stock HC (EVO 8) pistons and Stock(1G) rods with 90,000 + mile original rod bolts @ 26psi shifting @ 7500 when getting on it.

Almost 25,000 miles on a bone stock bottom end zero problems.

[nitrohuffer]

I was just asking about afr cuz my 1200cc lucas hit 95% duty at 380 whp on E85 and 6.9-6.7 afr just may have hung a injector half open if you are making 400+ on them my 1600cc bosch are running in the 60% range

Modified by nitrohuffer at 2:45 PM 4/4/2009
Modified by nitrohuffer at 2:58 PM 4/4/2009

[21FOX21]

Would you be willing to mail me one of the good rod bolts leftover when you rebuild? I'd be willing to mail it to ARP and see what their equivalent is AND SHARE THIS KNOWLEDGE WITH EVERYONE!!! =) (and not keep it secret like the guy on ebay).

thanks,

-M

I will try to remember to email you and get your info when I pull one out.

[mbmbmb23]

I will try to remember to email you and get your info when I pull one out.

Please do:m a t t h e wdott o l e nat g m a i ldotcom

[21FOX21]

So should run little to no timing? Am I doomed as long as I run this 8 port head and manifold? I mean if I had the money laying around I would buy a 4 port head but I don't currently. Anyone wanna sponsor me and buy me one?

With the way we have our wide band it is at 11.7 WOT timing is like 17 at 8000 I think. I would have to get the laptop out to check.

4G63's are a different motor, very strong ,specially the 6 bolt like you have, you can rev stock ones high make 400-450hp and not worry about stock bottem end. I was and still am considering doing that swap instead of the CA one thing keeping me from doing it is BOTI rules if I race.