Staggered Stance vs. All-Around

[Slappy]

Overkill much? Just drive your damn car.

[Kalypso]

^ no its important

ok so in your graph the force from slip angle decreases. as the side force goes up?

so less slip angle is more grip.

[Nismo_Freak]

^ no its important

ok so in your graph the force from slip angle decreases. as the side force goes up?

so less slip angle is more grip.

No, if anything it's more slip angle is more grip. Up until a point where the additional slip angle doesn't yield more grip if it increases.

Also, slip angle varies with tire construction and size.

[Kalypso]

ok... so in conclusion

im lost, but i cant say I didnt try

[Slappy]

It doesnt matter dude , cause non of these guys are applying any this info in real world situations.

Real track seat time > Internet geekism

[Kalypso]

Real track seat time > Internet geekism

HAHA!

[Nismo_Freak]

It doesnt matter dude , cause non of these guys are applying any this info in real world situations.

Real track seat time > Internet geekism

So it's internet geekism to understand what a car is doing, and discussing it? LOL. I'm sure in the remaining 23.75 hours in the day I can find time to drive my car.

Don't be ignorant.

[Slappy]

Oh stop

[Kalypso]

don't get mad, its interesting stuff, but frankly

you couldnt explain it in normal... (less intelligent then you) people english

[Slappy]

Im not mad , Nismo_Freak is cool , but damn.

[Kalypso]

not you slappy, that was to nismo freak...anyway... MOVING ON!

.

my ecu is dead, slappy read this zerothread?id=350863

[crackler]

I think this stuff is important to know. To truelly understand what you car is doing and why it is doing it, is very important. Knowing the theory behind what the car is actually doing is helpfull, at least to me.

Lets say you go into a corner; you experience understeer, and the stearing wheel shakes while you are trying to turn. So the car wont turn as much as you want / expected, so you put MORE wheel into it, and the car just slides more. Why is that? You turned the wheel more, why didn't the car turn more??? You must have the wrong tires/setup/shock/ect/ect/ect.WRONG. . . and here is why. . . .Now if you understand slip angels, the traction circle, ect ect, then you would undertand that you actually need to use LESS stearing input to make the car turn more. Since you overloaded the tire, and exceded the available mechanical traction available. So the only way to get the car to turn more is to get the tire to regain tration.

So how do we do that?

We have a couple options;Slow down morerun a wider linebrake sooner to avoid trailbrakeing

OR. . . .

You can simply reduce the amount of stearing input used. lets say this is a right hand turn, you have turned the wheel 1.5 times. and have massive understeer. To correct this, and get the car to turn more, and slide less, is to actually turn to the left. Lets say 1 - 1.125 to the right, down from 1.5 revolutions of the stearing wheel. What this does is reduce the slip angle of the tire relative to car/direction of movement. Since you reduced the slip angle, you are now asking the tire to turn less, which means there is more available grip, since the tire is now not overloaded. Which means that the tire has regained traction which means the car will now turn. So you have to turn left to turn right. Now in a real world application these numbers are much smaller, I have taken less than a 1/4 or 1/8th out of a turn to get it to rotate properly, but none the less knowing what is going on with the car and why is important.

Knowing the theory also helps with set-up. If you understand what is going from the drivers seat as well as what the chassise is doing it is easier to fine tune the set-up. You have to understand the inputs the car is receiving to tune it properly. Need more spring or less spring? Why or why not? more or less shock? How come? Bigger sway bar, smaller bar, no bar. How do you know which way to go. You have to understand the theory to really know why. Any one can look at a cheat sheet to try and tune the set-up, but there is a lot more to know, and I don't understand most of it my self.

Or I am just blowing some out of my . . . .

[Kalypso]

you said it all with this paragraph

Now if you understand slip angels, the traction circle, ect ect, then you would undertand that you actually need to use LESS stearing input to make the car turn more. Since you overloaded the tire, and exceded the available mechanical traction available. So the only way to get the car to turn more is to get the tire to regain tration.

you put that so eloquently now I can appreciate the mechanics of what nismo freak was saying...

theory is essential I and by wording it in a simple way.

now I can clearly understand.

thank you

[crackler]

Happy to help.

Some times less is more, in steering as well as in explanations.

[Slappy]

Thanks Cracker , that helped everyone the way you worded your post.

[crackler]

Thanks Cracker , that helped everyone the way you worded your post.

Slip Angle is good, until you have too much, and it is a fine line. Too little, and you are driving too slow leaving speed / time on course/track. Too much you are sliding / spinning / going off line / wrecking, resulting in slower times / speeds/ mistakes / bodey work /. . . .

But boy does it feel GOOD when you get it just right.

An Evo Instructor told me once: Slither, don't stick or slide.

[Slappy]

For grip i've always stuck to the golden rule of slow in fast out.

[crackler]

Fast in, out backwards

[Nismo_Freak]

Fast in, out backwards

We aren't driving Porsches.

[Slappy]

We aren't driving Porsches.

[Kalypso]

staggered vs all around still hasnt been solved

....

I'm going with all around, because it nice to rotate wheels

[crackler]

I would hazard to guess that without a lot of testing, it won't be. And I don't see that coming anytime soon.The guys that are doing well with the 240's in AutoX or road racing, what are they running??? That should be a good place to start, depending on what it is that you plan to do with the car.

I would say all around, but that is just a guess on my part. Or a very slight stagger. If you go too crazy, you will wind up with a bunch of understeer. But it probably also depends on what spring rate / ride height / brake set up / power level one has / ect.
Modified by cracker at 7:55 PM 7/11/2008

[Kalypso]

[Slappy]

The guys that are doing well with the 240's in road racing.

Casey (sr20goofus) uses the oem Z32 wheels w/ sticky's and does fine.

staggered vs all around still hasnt been solved

It wont be because it varies on personal preferance and testing / setup.

[unlearning]

I kept revisiting the thread to see if it ever got back on track =p

Thanks to you three for bringing it back.

So I picked up coils this weekend and in another few weeks I'll be getting my wheels/tires. I'm really, really tempted to just buy a set of 17x9s for the back and 2 sets for the front x8 and x9, just to try it out, but another $600 even with cheapie wheels/tires kinda hurts especially when there is so much more left to do.

Anyone have a good place to look for suspension setups for road racer/autox'ers?.