SRT v. WRX

[jdmfreak]

Seriously why would you buy a car(Neon) that has good #s from the factory, but is going to be a major hassle in a couple of years or maybe sooner? When you could buy a better car with a better history and will still be up and going with little repairs 10 years from now. For $19,000 I say you get what you pay for. In the Neons case, you get what 240marcuSX said,"SRT-4 = fast motor, in a ****ty wrapper" I would rather buy a new Sentra or Civic for $19,000 than a SRT-4. You can compare the SRT-4 to the WRX now but in 5 years with only regular maintenance done to both, I believe that the sube would kill the SRT-4 if it isnt in pieces already.

[BadMojo]

DSSA:

DODGE NEONS ARE KNOWN AS PILES, THE RECALSS ARE ALREADY COMING OUT OF THE WOODWORK FOR THE SRT4. DODGE NEONS OUT PERFORMOTHER CARS ONCE THE OWNERS GO THROUGH AND CHANGE TONS PARTS TO HIGHER QUALITY MORE DURABLE ITEMS (IE BUSHINGS, CONTROL ARMS, ETC.)

Just out of curiousity, what are the major recalls on the SRT-4? The only major thing I've seen is a redesigned flywheel.

[lbrowne]

wow SmithSR and DSSA have quite the bout goin here...

Heres my thoughts:

Its only intended as a bang for the buck car, but they have the ability to somewhat perform in other areas but even still its a fwd and you'll never get by that.

Lots of power, torque steer-a-plenty, which is why they are now offered with LSD - a very good after thought. AWD is good for your launch and thats pretty much it when it comes to drag racing. I've taken on enough WRXs, talons and Twin Turbo Stealths etc etc to know that that AWD is only as good as they can launch it. Like rwd with too much spin if not coaxed correctly, they can bog or smoke their clutch like a bonfire. (these races would be me in my TA )

Its not a skyline, its not a muscle car, its not an exotic, its a direct in-your-face answer to all the import fellas that think they're god with their hopped up foreign cars with big wings and body kits, but still basically a simple hatchback etc under the skin with mods to make it sound fast to them but annoying to others.. (this is not saying that there are no actual fast fwd imports out there)

Theres now an American brand that will give a good douse of whoop *** in completely stock form.

Me? I never would buy a new line of car/performance model in its debut year. Let it settle and let them work the bugs out because theres almost always going to be some.

I'd like to see the records of these major recalls, these major defects/problems....some people hear about a problem that someone has through the grapevine with a certain car then all of a sudden the complete line of that car is garbage! I'm not saying that this car is bug free by no means.

I like the fact that dodge is being old school, the car is putting down more than what its advertised as having. They have plenty of available factory warranty covered modifications available to the buyer.... thats a no brainer, imagine if Nissan offered aftermarket mods installed and covered by warranty for say...their 350Z or how about the fwd Sentra. (and I'm not just talking intakes and exhausts here)

Talk smack all you want its a good package for today's market in that genre (this line is not directed at anyone)

To me this car would be nothing more than daily driver and also an ego buster, watching the look on people's faces when a Neon, yes a bug eyed-bubble shaped 4 door econobox blows the doors off them.

Definitely not the ride you cruise the scene in trying to be cool with your hat on sideways and all kinds of bling bling laced on your clothes. :cwm27

[DSSA]

wow SmithSR and DSSA have quite the bout goin here...

Heres my thoughts:

Its only intended as a bang for the buck car, but they have the ability to somewhat perform in other areas but even still its a fwd and you'll never get by that.

Lots of power, torque steer-a-plenty, which is why they are now offered with LSD - a very good after thought. AWD is good for your launch and thats pretty much it when it comes to drag racing. I've taken on enough WRXs, talons and Twin Turbo Stealths etc etc to know that that AWD is only as good as they can launch it. Like rwd with too much spin if not coaxed correctly, they can bog or smoke their clutch like a bonfire. (these races would be me in my TA )..........<cut>

Very well stated, and you make some very good points for both sides. It's nice that someone else sees the SRT-4 for what it's intended to be, and not just bashing it for having a "Dodge" emblem on it---as well as recognize its shortcomings.

The only disagreement I have is with the AWD and dragracing comment. When you're making enough power, that AWD is coming into effect long after the launch. I've been scared pretty badly a couple of times @ half-track with that imposing wall getting closer and closer @ over 90 mph even with decent tires and AWD.

[TurboKA37]

We people in the general Philadelphia area are just smarter than the rest. ;-)

yep

[lbrowne]

DSSA maybe if the awd car is making like 600+ horsepower, even then I don't think it matters. honestly once the car gets going given adequate tires it won't matter if you're awd or not.

Unless of course its a powerful rwd with tires too thin on the back and you spin 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gear... (and I don;t mean chirping)

Maybe if you're on a roadcourse of something, thats where the awd will help a very powerful car.

Funny cars and alcohol drag cars are not awd, but yes their HUGE meats in the back get them the launch

My friend's 94 TT Stealth making around 400 hp to the crank has a totally different feel than my 96 TA...it feels like the physics of the car under hard acceleration are different than a rwd. Rwd has more tendency to squat towards the back with the weight transfer causing you to sink back and down into your seat, whereas an nice powerful awd car seems to push straight back into your seat for that -in the air in a jet hitting throttle- feeling.

I'm gunna stop now cuz I'm getting rawled up, its raining out and I can't take my TA for a lively spin

[Cold_Zero]

The Impreza (WRX / 2.5RS) has some serious transmission problems. Ask any owner (or at least the NASIOC people) about popping gears and a broken 1st.

It's too bad it's only a 5 speed, it's not practical at high speeds. The STi is a different story.

Actually, ask this NASIOC member. The problem presented itself with the 2002 model of the WRX and was fixed for the 2003 model. I have had no problems with my transmission. Get sick of people always bringing this up. We have over 20 guys in our Impreza club here in Indy and not one of them have had to replace the transmission. Modified cars or stock!

[BadMojo]

Lots of power, torque steer-a-plenty, which is why they are now offered with LSD - a very good after thought.

Actually, one of our NICO members who owns an SRT-4 (can't remember who) has said that torque steer really isn't an issue. Equal length drive shafts have apparently minimized the effect to the point where it's not really an issue anymore. If not for that, torque steer would be overpowering. The Spec-V SE-R, with quite a bit less power, has some really nasty torque steer according to almost all of the reviews I read.

That said, the changes made to the 2004 SRT-4's are nice ones. An LSD (from Quaife, I think), larger injectors, some ECU changes, different tires, and HP/torque numbers increased (probably more in line with the actual power at the crank).

They're also adding a sun roof as an option (ehhh, no thanks) and dropping Mopar Hideous Yellow for the electric blue used on PT Cruisers.

[Cold_Zero]

I want to offer some general observations about this discussion.

I think it is good that we are talking about cars other than our beloved Nissans. Discussing what we (as the consumer) want is a good thing. Nissan has been very good with offering people good quality cars with performance at a good price. Performance has been the lifeblood of Nissan for some time now.

Here are my observations: 1. No one mentioned that horizontally opposed engine that the WRX has and what benefits it offers to performance. 2. The downsides to the AWD system in a performance car. The parasitic drag that AWD presents through the driveline and how power suffers and the weight that is involved.3. The limited production numbers of the WRX line and what kind of legacy it will leave the car years from now. I am not sure if the SRT-4 will be a limited production car. 4. The untapped potential that both cars offer to tuners. After reading the reviews of the SRT-4, I find it hard that the untapped potential in the car will be cheap to un-harness. 5. The lack of options and features that would enhance the performance of either car. This point could go on and on for each car. Trust me, I love my car but I do have a gripe list.6. The aftermarket support for both cars. The WRX has an immense aftermarket that can be drawn upon from Asia, Australia, Europe and now the US. The SRT-4 has Mopar parts that are available for the first generation of the car and they don’t void your warranty? I wish Subaru would stop kidding itself about its STi parts you can order for the WRX.7. Who are the major players of the Sport Compact Car scene and how did they bring about this SCC muscle car era?

I am all for good discussion and I think we can broaden the conversation with out beating the same arguments to the ground.

[DSSA]

DSSA maybe if the awd car is making like 600+ horsepower, even then I don't think it matters. honestly once the car gets going given adequate tires it won't matter if you're awd or not.

The car I was talking about is making mid 400s to the wheels. Tires were 225/50/16 Nitto Drag Radials, weighs 2600lbs. and runs 11.3s all day long. The car just won't give up that one 10 second pass, I kid about it giving up in the street class and going into brackets. The damn thing ran 11.3@119, 11.3@126, 11.3@121, 11.3@124, etc...

The car being built right now *should* put down in the 650+ whp range on the bottle--still just a little 2.0.

[Cold_Zero]

You have three Galant VR-4's? Those are pretty rare cars.

[BadMojo]

Here are my observations: 6. The aftermarket support for both cars. The WRX has an immense aftermarket that can be drawn upon from Asia, Australia, Europe and now the US. The SRT-4 has Mopar parts that are available for the first generation of the car and they don’t void your warranty? I wish Subaru would stop kidding itself about its STi parts you can order for the WRX.

The Mopar thing is a fairly confusing issue among the SRT-4 crowd. The Mopar Performance parts (ie. the good stuff) have no warranty. They won't (can't by law) void your entire warranty, or even your entire powertrain warranty, but any failure caused by the Mopar parts technically isn't covered.

I haven't heard of anyone testing this out, but it sounds like some dealers are going to sort of "look the other way" when it comes to the warranty and Mopar Performance stuff, depending on the circumstances surrounding the damage to the car.

The fear with the Mopar warranty is that a crooked dealer could most likely trace (or try to anyway) any powertrain problem back to the new injectors and ECU.

So, the Mopar stages aren't quite as slick as they seem. The upside is that the '04 model already has the new injectors and may include *some* of the ECU enhancements that were part of Stage 1.

[DSSA]

You have three Galant VR-4's? Those are pretty rare cars.

Yessir. Would you like to buy one?

I'll soon be down to two of them, and then hopefully only one. I'm trying to trim down "the fleet" so to speak until I have only one DSM and one GVR4.

The DSMs have been great, but it's getting to the point where I can rebuild one with my eyes closed, thus, the purchase of the 240s came about. The SR20 is the only other 4 cylinder that I could find that I want to play with right now, and the RB26DETT deal fell through for the moment, so...I find myself here.

[DSSA]

The Mopar thing is a fairly confusing issue among the SRT-4 crowd. The Mopar Performance parts (ie. the good stuff) have no warranty. They won't (can't by law) void your entire warranty, or even your entire powertrain warranty, but any failure caused by the Mopar parts technically isn't covered.

I can attest to this as well. While riding in a friend's car that he bought for the shop to play with (http://www.agpturbo.com) that has the "Stage 1" Mopar ECU and Injectors, I read the paperwork that came with it. It clearly states that the upgrades may void warranties on the car.

I think he paid in the upper-$300 range for the upgrade (550cc injectors/ECU) which is DAMN cheap for these parts. Injectors alone are usually in this price range (for Densos-- I'm not sure what injectors Dodge uses).

[BadMojo]

I wish Subaru would stop kidding itself about its STi parts you can order for the WRX.

I'm not as familiar with Subaru stuff as I'd like to be. What's this all about?

On a related Subaru note, Richard Burns just recently signed with the Subaru World Rally Team. He's currently leading in the Drivers Championship and is a 2001 WRC Champion. Subaru's looking good! :ylsuper

[TurboKA37]

DSSA: how much u charging for one of those VR4s? im interested in them but i will not likely get one

[DSSA]

DSSA: how much u charging for one of those VR4s? im interested in them but i will not likely get one

The white '91 is leaving in the next couple of weeks @ $5300. The grey '92 (very limited # color) will probably go for about $6500 when I'm ready to sell it.

The Viper Steel Grey '91 is the project car, and won't be sold.

[SmithSR]

Back by popular demand!

In your next post, please give us fact-based benefit of FWD over AWD/RWD from a performance aspect. Tell us why Dodge built what you call a performance car with FWD. Feel free to include any and all press statements from Dodge proving this.

Lets hear your thoughts, backed by documentation, about wheelspin, torque steer, and wheel hop, with regards to this car you defend.

Please also present documentation that proves FWD offers better weight distribution, throttle-on turn in, and weight transfer upon launch.

If you can present fact-based documentation on all these issues, that prove the SRT-4 fits the description of performance, I'll post documentation to the contrary on all counts.

now from DSSA...Perhaps, you might want to respond in that particular thread to that effect instead of (especially with you being a moderator) hi-jacking this one?

I see you declined to debate more there, now you bring it up here. Is it because quite a few other people in that thread were agreeing with what I said, and you felt as if it were a personal slam against you? This is the *internet*. No need to tie up a noose-knot just because someone doesn't agree with you.

To be perfectly honest, just because you have moderator status don't think I'm going to kiss your *** and treat you any differently than anyone else on this forum unless it has to do with violation of an establish rule. So stop acting like a child with a gun, and trying to hide behind your moderator status.

DSSA: Don't kiss my ***, just answer my question if you can. You bit off more than you can chew, yet you still refuse to meet my argument with anything but insults. Lets have some facts, not name calling. "Debate" <can> in fact be done without name calling. If you cannot manage to debate my point without posting insults, then no need for you to post.

[DSSA]

You forgot to add:

Quote by SmithSR:

Quote »Step up and prove me wrong, that FWD is better than RWD for performance. [/quote]

After:

Quotes by DSSA previously found in this thread:

Quote »Sure, as soon as you post information where I said anything about FWD being superior to AWD/RWD.[/quote]

and

Quote »Considering I own a slew of AWD cars and some RWDs, I don't think you'll find me saying anything like this.[/quote]

and

Quote »It's still ugly, yes. It's also FWD...but the car is DAMN quick for a $19K car, and has potential. [/quote]

Then we have fact #4..

Considering that all of my performance cars are AWD and RWD, you'd think that I'd sway towards supporting those platforms.

It's called "Reading Comprehension".

Now, back to my challenge that I addressed over a week ago, I'll repeat it again so it's not missed:

Quote »Sure, as soon as you post information where I said anything about FWD being superior to AWD/RWD[/quote]

Putting words into my mouth when it's easily proven that I never stated them only hurts your own credibility.

You seem to have a knack for turning things around and twisting them. Unfortunately, you do it in a way that even the most un-insightful person could see right through. Now, if you'd like to debate what was actually said, I'll gladly do so.

[SmithSR]

You defend the car, calling it a performance car, that buyers of said car are looking for performance. Prove to me that this fwd platform improves upon, assists, provides a higher level of performance, and stop splitting hairs. That is your position whether you see it that way or not. You lack the ability to see the glaring contradiction that you praise one aspect, but ignore, shun, and brush off the car's second most fatal flaw(fwd) the first being the company which produces the car.

You really are THAT stubborn, but I won't allow you to think you are right all the time. Your position in the arguement is weak. Deal with being wrong.

[TurboKA37]

i dont like the SRT but i would call it a performance car. what else would it be? a economy car? and DSSA really never said anything about the fwd format being better than rwd or awd. all that u have on DSSA is the debate whether the SRT is or is not a performance car which (i think) has ALOT to do with personal preferance so im not sure that there will ever be a "winner" to this debate

[SmithSR]

No need to "have anything" on DSSA. His position is clear. He chooses to hide behind "i never said that exact word" argument.

Like I said, his <position> is clear on the car. Has been from his first post in this thread. Has been from his first sentence in his first post in this thread.

When reasonable people argue, they take a position and defend it.

[DSSA]

No need to "have anything" on DSSA. His position is clear. He chooses to hide behind "i never said that exact word" argument.

Like I said, his <position> is clear on the car. Has been from his first post in this thread. Has been from his first sentence in his first post in this thread.

When reasonable people argue, they take a position and defend it.

Okay, *last* straw.

You're the equivalent of a mental midget. I've stated clearly enough for EVERY other person on the board to realize that I'm *CLEARLY* aware the the car is FWD and it's a drawback. However, since you can't come up with an argument of your own, you wish to still harp on your little creation of me saying somewhere that "FWD is better then AWD/RWD" (this being from an owner of several AWD and RWD platforms...I choose my cars out of the inferior lots..). Get it through your thick skull once and for all. I DO NOT THINK THAT FWD IS SUPERIOR TO RWD OR AWD!.

The Type-R was acclaimed as a superior handling car.. Guess what? It's FWD. Does that mean that it's better than all of the AWDs/FWDs out there? NO. However, the 1st and *WHOLE* arguement I was stating was that the SRT-4 for the money is a damn good bargain for someone looking for bare-bones and inexpensive performance. World-Class Sports car? No. Neither I, nor anyone else stated/hinted at this. Good performance for $19K? Hell yes.

Interestingly enough, at Atco this weekend (Yes, some of us DO race..and not just dragstrip) there was an SRT-4. The car had drag radials, a boost controller, the Dodge "stage I" upgrades, and a 3" exhaust. All told, about $1000 in mods (you want to split hairs, we'll say $1500 to be safe). And guess what? It was running 12.2s all night long. For a total investment of $20,500, the guys got a car that will run with 90% of what you will encounter on the street. But no...you're right, it's a Dodge, and just like the Viper, no matter what performance figures, it's a Dodge and it still sucks, right?

That's case-in-point. The car is *CHEAP* performance--which it's intended to be, and does a damn good job for the little outlay of cash required to gain a spot in the driver's seat.

Now, as far as your little e-mail

"Questioning a moderator's credibility is a banning offense on most internet forums. Lose the attitude."

that you sent me.

If you choose to be a moderator, you might not want to put falsified words in someone's mouth in order to win an opinionated debate. If you were able to debate it without doing such, yes, I wouldn't get frustrated and deem you "illiterate" or "willing to put words in someone's mouth in order to argue, thus hurting your own credibility"

Go ahead, ban me as you so choose to threaten me with since you obviously can't even support your views with intellectually-based opinion without putting something like "Well, you said, "XXXX"" which can be construed as "FWD is better than AWD/RWD" if you want to go out on a limb.'"

Otherwise, keep the debate to what actually was said, and if you disagree, cut loose the manhood and come up with valid reasons why you do, instead of "It's a Dodge/Neon, and they suck".

There are plenty of ways to slam the SRT-4. It's not "god's gift to the sports-car world". I just think that it shouldn't be counted out "simply because it's a Dodge", when for a paltry sum of $19K it outperforms all of the other cars in its class.

This has been my whole arguement througout this thread, and everyone else but yourself has seemed to be able to grasp it.

Now, with that all said...

Your other question was about my position on the 350Z and the aspect of "mod-ability" as we've called it.

Now, if the new Z is such a "monster in waiting" as you so call it, pray-tell how you're going to put $2000 or less in it to make it *simply* out-accelerate the "paltry" SRT4 with under $2000 into it.

Yes, this is just one aspect of performance (acceleration), but I'd like to hear your solution to this...

[SmithSR]

You back it as cheap speed. I agree. It is cheap.

So are your insults, which degrade the excellent post you <did> have going.

I am seeing your point. You do approve of the car, but only half-heartedly. You understand my viewpoint, that fwd does not improve or offer greater performance, but you have had a hard time speaking to my question of why you think dodge made a "performance" car fwd. I asked if you could back up(with documentation) the idea that a car you claim to be a "performance" car would in <any> way benefit from a fwd chassis. Apparently that was your train stop, because you would have none of that. You then went on a hair splitting frenzy, insisting you didn't say those exact words. To you I ask, did I ever accuse you of saying those words? No. That was the <position> you took, by defending the car. Sir, if you don't understand that, then really, there is no need to post. Unless you were posting to ensure having the final word on the issue. You DID do a fine job of backing off the issue, and returning to personal attacks.

Here is how I now see your point of view, minus the pathetic, childish, unwarranted, offensive, rude, made in poor judgement personal attacks you have aimed at me:

You don't really care one way or the other about the car, just so long as you have the final word, and go undisputed. I'm here to tell you that you will never succeed at this, whether on the internet, or in life.

Your problem is simple. You cannot deal with a differing viewpoint. So you resort to personal insults. When you are met with defiance as not having the all-powerful voice of reason, judgement, and understanding, you <continue> the insulting barrage and think you are somehow justified in this because you were wronged by having to read a different opinion. People disagree in life. How you handle those situations tells a lot about one's character. You have continually insulted people who disagree with you. This tells me much.

I sent you an email, as a private matter. I did so to make you aware that your words and attitude are NOT in keeping with allowable net etiquette. Your pressing need to get your gun off and make public what I felt was appropriate for privacy proves once again what your first sentence of your first post in this thread told me. Lack of maturity.

For God's sake man, you really need to stop worrying about my duties, immediately. and I do mean immediately.

Lastly: I did not threaten you. I'll even use your own hair splitting tactic against you: Prove to me, give me proof that you were threatened. Show me exactly where you were threatened.

You meant to say that you felt threatened, and that problem is your's alone.

[BadMojo]

Why do these threads always turn ugly? Can't we, as a group, appreciate a variety of different cars? Every time this happens, its deeply disappointing.

I love NICO, but I wish we could just be a bunch of car guys, hanging out and talking about a whole crapload of different cars. Without things going horribly, horribly wrong.

For what it's worth, the only minor benefit I can think of that FWD has over RWD is that there is typically less drivetrain loss with a front engine, front wheel drive car than a front engine, rear wheel drive car. Doesn't really outweigh the other benefits of RWD.

Getting a bit back on topic, I finally got to ride in both an SRT-4 and a '02 WRX (I think every one of these that Subaru makes should come in World Rally Blue!). The interiors of both seemed equivalent, not exactly BMW level but not overly cheap. The SRT-4 pulled like hell with just myself and the sales guy, and the WRX did fairly well too considering it was lugging 4 adults at approx. 190lbs each.

Both are really fun cars. I'd imagine that I'd be happy to own either of them. Hopefully next year I can afford a shiny new car.

[tinted]

I'm not as familiar with Subaru stuff as I'd like to be. What's this all about?

On a related Subaru note, Richard Burns just recently signed with the Subaru World Rally Team. He's currently leading in the Drivers Championship and is a 2001 WRC Champion. Subaru's looking good! :ylsuper

two of their drivers got killed a month or so ago

[BadMojo]

two of their drivers got killed a month or so ago

That wasn't actually the SWRT (Subaru World Rally Time), but the Rally Team USA. Mark Lovell and Roger Freemen were the men killed at the Oregon Trail SCCA Pro-Rally. I don't think Freeman was Lovell's usual co-driver.

Very sad indeed.

[TurboKA37]

hey DSSA and SmithSR, u guys are really good at picking apart things and making huge explainations to prove ur opinions. i say we carry this battle to other topics and u guys can each write my school essays and ill decide who is the winner. if the loser still dissagrees we can continue these matches for all the essays i have all year.

[DSSA]

hey DSSA and SmithSR, u guys are really good at picking apart things and making huge explainations to prove ur opinions. i say we carry this battle to other topics and u guys can each write my school essays and ill decide who is the winner. if the loser still dissagrees we can continue these matches for all the essays i have all year.

So, you want to start now? Okay, fine! Well.....

<can't keep straight face any longer>

Good call. I'm actually laughing *right* now.

I guess we could both use a nice, tall, cool glass of STFU at this point. I was done, but he decided to follow me to another thread and start back in on this. (Mom! He started it!!!!):pface

[TurboKA37]

yea just give me a couple weeks. i start school tomarrow