SR20DET vs Turbo KA24

[Mr1der]

Yes..yes they are...i'm amazed i found one in such a small city as the one I live in...overall there were a little over 3000 made in 89 and the same number in 90...quite a find IMO...defininitely one of a kind...and quite a buy at $2000 w/ only 87,000 miles

It's in serious need of a wash like i said...it's been sitting in someones yard for almost a year...the paint looks dull but it's almost flawless underneath the dirt...of course the front valance is beat up and the clear coat wore off the rear bumper

I need to grab a pic of the Heads Up Display and Driver Information Center...i think you'll get a kick out of some of the technology gm used in there late 80's early 90's cars

oh they had those suckers lit up like a ****pit in a jet fighter.

fun cars minus the front drive.

that's gotta be a hell of time working under the hood though, probably even worse then mine. I remember my uncle had to losen motor mounts and pull the engine forward to get some of the back plugs changed:eek:

[cartoonman]

I am learning quite a bit from this stuff...thanks guys

But yeah the engine compartments are tight on those cars....you do have toy loosen the motor mounts and tilt the engine forward to change the rear plugs...never done yet though

I like all the lights and buttons and stuff those things have....lol

But i guess i should be glad i'm not buying a GM 3.4 DOHC...lot's of timing belt problems and you have to take the rear head off to do most work on the engine...now that would suck

[C-Kwik]

Quote » Originally posted by Nismo_Freak Incorrect, the KA and SR have different metallurgy, properties, and overall design differences that make a large difference in terms of a durability threashold. SR pistons are indeed stronger than the KA's ... it's aparent in the amount of power they hold. The 1 point of extra compression ratio does not account for 200rwhp of difference. The rods are indeed beefier, and shorter by a full inch which helps reduce piston speeds considerably.[/quote]

I have not heard of this difference in metallurgy? Can you be more specific? And where are you getting a 200 RWHP difference? The highest HP stock bottom end SR I heard of was Phase2Motortrend's drag car. However it's highest boost runs were made with a mixture of higher octane fuel. On the KA, I've seen about 350 HP, but considering the higher compression and the fact that I haven't heard of anyone trying to run higher octane fuel to push the envelope, I don't see how anyone can say that the KA's internals can not handle susbstantially more power. Most people tend to just make the assumption that the highest boost they've heard of is the ceiling. I don't consider the detonation threshold to be the ceiling of the strength of the parts.

Quote »Turbo motors match and exceed 100% VE... if not then there would be no reason for turbocharging an engine. An SR20 producing 300rwhp on stock components will at one point in it's powerband achieve 100% VE shortly before it exceeds 100%. An SR22 producing 700rwhp is EASILY above 100% VE. [/quote]

You are correct here. I explained what I meant incorrectly. A motor that sees a 100%+ VE in NA form is not going to work as well under boost because of reversion. Or more technically, it's not going to see the same 100%+VE times the pressure ratio that you would in a motor that sees minimal or no overlap.

Quote »Also, you can't rule out the presence of intake pulse tuning. It's what gives rotary engines in n/a form their power (bridge porting, etc.)[/quote]

But now you are referring to a NA motor. Turbos block the column of air that assist with scavenging.

[Nismo_Freak]

I have not heard of this difference in metallurgy? Can you be more specific? And where are you getting a 200 RWHP difference? The highest HP stock bottom end SR I heard of was Phase2Motortrend's drag car. However it's highest boost runs were made with a mixture of higher octane fuel. On the KA, I've seen about 350 HP, but considering the higher compression and the fact that I haven't heard of anyone trying to run higher octane fuel to push the envelope, I don't see how anyone can say that the KA's internals can not handle susbstantially more power. Most people tend to just make the assumption that the highest boost they've heard of is the ceiling. I don't consider the detonation threshold to be the ceiling of the strength of the parts.

SR Pistons have thicker ring lands which prevent detonation from destroying the sides of the piston as you well know.

Simply because the cylinder pressures and heat being exerted by producing 500+rwhp are enough to shatter alot of pistons. Detonation isn't the end all to piston life. If that were the case then simply running 114 octane fuel through a KA-T would net higher hp figures.

Even withen forged pistons they use different alloys for different applications. I can't substantuate the claim but I'd be willing to bet that the KA's pistons are of a lower friction less heat tolerant design. Simply because it uses oil squirters to cool the crown temps, and the extra length of the stroke would require lower friction materials to further reduce skirt and ring damage.

[Nismo_Freak]

But now you are referring to a NA motor. Turbos block the column of air that assist with scavenging.

Depends on the runner design of the manifold... turbo drag cars use long runners with large diameter's so that they do get a scavenging effect, moreso when the wastegate is open. Bear in mind that highly tuned engines can produce higher inlet pressures than exhaust side pressures.

[C-Kwik]

SR Pistons have thicker ring lands which prevent detonation from destroying the sides of the piston as you well know.

Simply because the cylinder pressures and heat being exerted by producing 500+rwhp are enough to shatter alot of pistons. Detonation isn't the end all to piston life. If that were the case then simply running 114 octane fuel through a KA-T would net higher hp figures.

Even withen forged pistons they use different alloys for different applications. I can't substantuate the claim but I'd be willing to bet that the KA's pistons are of a lower friction less heat tolerant design. Simply because it uses oil squirters to cool the crown temps, and the extra length of the stroke would require lower friction materials to further reduce skirt and ring damage.

Thicker ring lands make sense from a manufacturer's standpoint, but are really of little concern unless detonation is occurring.

Not saying that KA pistons can necessarily handle 500 HP. Just saying 350 HP is not necessarily a maximum. But at the same time, detonation can easily produce 10 times the peak pressures and heat of regular combustion. Whereas even doubling the output of a motor through turbocharging will produce maybe a 50% increase in peak pressure. Even tripling the power would still be substantially less pressure than detonation can cause.

Forged pistons materials are available in variety for the same motor. It has more to do with the user's preferences and application. It can affect clearances, strength, etc. However, I've not heard anything or seen anything that would indicate Nissan uses a different blend of alloys. But that's not to say they do not.

[ahbongkeo]

how do you guys know all these stuff?school,books,experience,friends, or what

[Nismo_Freak]

how do you guys know all these stuff?school,books,experience,friends, or what

Arguing with each other for the past 2 yrs.

[Megaseth]

[C-Kwik]

Arguing with each other for the past 2 yrs.

LOL!

[ahbongkeo]

i need to find some people to ague with then....any1 want to argue with me?

[240Knightrider]

sure, um I dont believe your registered in May

[downshift]

sure, um I dont believe your registered in May

call me slow....but it took me a little while to figure out the reason why you posted that. Kinda funny.

[Nismo_Freak]

sure, um I dont believe your registered in May

I'm sure you don't remember the other versions of NICO

Damn n00bs

[downshift]

I remeber there was a thread about the other versions of NICO....does that count? lol

[nlzmo400r]

im not saying i think anyone here is wrong, But why is the original poster of this thread trying to defend KA's so much, people will do what they want no matter what anyone tells them. And taking a KA and doing all kinds of head work (i.e expensive) to make it flow better (and therefore losing the- it cost the same as an SR- factor) to try to keep up with the SR in high revs is ridiculous. Anyone ever thought of taking the KA for what its good for and improving that? Dont worry about your 68ooRPM redline and improving top end power, use the low end thats there, and if anything, work on the cars strengths, not its weaknesses (atleast not in the powerband). A healthy ka-t with great midrange will be amazing out of a corner and you wont have the pain of having to rev the piss out of your engine to get good exit speed. All im saying, everyone needs to stop trying to focus on weaknesses and improving them, and instead, take what the car is already good at, and make it better.

[downshift]

hmm.....sounds like a pretty solid idea to me nlzmo. Like you said, people will do what they want no matter what anyone tells them....so uh.....I am guessing that no matter if you tell someone to focus on the strength of the ka they will probably not listen. Solid point though.

[cartoonman]

heh...i see what your all getting at...to each their own

thanks for the argument guys...helped me learn some stuff that i didn't know

most of all thanks for the behavior...not one person really called me an idiot or told me to shut up...just so you know you guys behave 20 times better then the guys over at my gm w-body board

peace

[downshift]

most of all thanks for the behavior...not one person really called me an idiot or told me to shut up...just so you know you guys behave 20 times better then the guys over at my gm w-body board

NICO IS better than any other forum board!!! Man, we're kool

[knowleqe]

im not gonna say that nico is the best, there are other great forums such as FA

[downshift]

Oh....hehe.....cant say that i am part of that forum. Guess my NICO spirit got the better of me. OK once again: NICO IS the best forum on the net!!

Disclaimer: Only talking about the forums that I am registered in, since i am not registered on FA then its the best. HA.

Should I get registered on that forum too bro?.....just curious as to whether it will have good info for a car enthusiast like myself.

[burnin240sx]

NICO freaking rocks!!! i love these posts cauz i learn more with all this arguing. plz inform us of your real source of information.

ps my sig is from a ka vs sr thread that i started and deleted due to the bad turn out. this was a much better post. u get props for the better ka sr post cartoonman

[Megaseth]

dont bother signing onto FA, they'll just flame you, more so thatn we do, only they're serious.

[nlzmo400r]

yea, we are damn cool here at NICO, we argue very well, we're all like really crappy lawyers. Anyway, FA is a good site, but for newbie questions and whatnot, wow ive seen some guys really get flamed hard, and for nothing, ill stick to NICO, thanks thouguh

[hannibal]

NICO...my first forum and my last...

[driftguy]

nice post people good stuff to no

[knowleqe]

FA haters! damn you all. jk jk. it helps to broaden your horizons, FA can get very technical and if you like that kind of stuff, browse on over there

[burnin240sx]

where is fa?

[downshift]

where is fa?

Uh...as in where, you mean what right? http://www.freshalloy.com i believe thats the site, if not then i would post up the right one next time.

[Jookmasta]

well i just wanted to serve as an ambassador from the KA-T side of the forum. we just recently had a guy run 14 psi on stock internals for the KADE and made 377rwhp and 376 torque using a standalone (aem ems) and other mods. that has to say something about the potential that lies in the KADE. o ya, full boost at 3500 rpm or so. gotta love the KA