Some interesting info on timing.

[virus77]

Lately there has been talk about the timing on kats and relating it to EGR and all that good stuff and it got me thinking so I had to check mine out at least. Ive been trying to get my hands on something to check my timing during WOT to see how much i should retard timing because the car felt like it was wasting the boost and falling on its face. Anyways Ive moved into a new shop lately and everything has been a messed up and in boxes but I dug up my snap-on obd2 scanner which had been missing for a while and I checked out my timing. I have my EGR blocked off but i reset the code and took it out for a spin with no codes and timing knocked back like 15 degrees on my emanage( to be safe at first) I was expecting like mid 20's timing plus some timing advance because im running 480's knocked down with an AFC(emanage, same thing) which is why i thought so much shoudl be retarded but i was surprised to see the timing numbers the car made. remember your timing adjustments dont show up on a scanner so you must subtract what you retard from the readings you get.

At wot the car gets to about 15-17 degrees timing, this is with the egr removed but i dont think that caused and timing retard, I had reset it and it was running with no codes, so for some reason my timing is where it should be with a boosted car as are other peoples kats it seems to be. End result was I took my timing retard to around 3 degrees at 12 psi at the emanage plus the cars 15-17 its at so around 13-15 degrees timing(91 octane just being safe). The car feels like its boosting another 5 psi its sooooooo much faster, it burns 2nd to redline on a 1-2 shift with my 275 falkens. In about an hour the egr tripped a cel again but no difference in performance. All in all I suggest everyone check there timing somehow on wot because it might not be what you think it is, and you could be losing power, but do not advance based on my post or others, im not sure if every car is the same. Anyways i just did some testing and wanted to share. Sorry if the grammar isnt perfect ive been up all day.

-Virus

[S14tat]

i have a snap on scanner at my school. when i get my JWT ecu back i will do a WOT run to see what the timing will be at WOT. but damn sounds like great results from something that is so simple to do. but how do you block off your EGR? you unhooked the sensor? or was the bung blocked off like most KA-T guys?

[virus77]

I disconnected the main pipe from the factory manifold and sealed it.

[UltraRed2$0sx]

thats three people that have confirmed that info already. must be the EGR since that seems to be the case of the three Ka-t setups.

PauL

[daniel240]

would a nissan dealer have one of those snap on scanners? i work at a dealer so i could use it. i really want to know what my timing is at wot.

[virus77]

thats three people that have confirmed that info already. must be the EGR since that seems to be the case of the three Ka-t setups.

PauL

Im not sure if its the EGR that gives it the timing numbers, unless if you reset the codes and it still keeps the conservative maps. I reset it and then went to check and it still gave those numbers. I guess we would need someone with EGR hooked up and a turbo kit running to check timing at wot, the greddy kit people would be good candidates.

[virus77]

would a nissan dealer have one of those snap on scanners? i work at a dealer so i could use it. i really want to know what my timing is at wot.

Nissan dealer would have consult so yes they can check timing at wot, my snap-on scanner (aka red brick) has a connection for the nissan consult port thats how i did it, it actually didnt read through the regular obd2 port.

[UltraRed2$0sx]

i see what your saying.We defintely need someone with their EGR plugged to test their timming at WOT.Its becomming a mistery.

PauL

[Red-KAT]

I have EGR installed on my KAT so once I get to check my timing at WOT I will post whats up with mine.

EDIT: I dont have the cash right now to drop $500 on the Nprobe that I want... So if one of you guys wana send me a tool that can check WOT timing I'll be happy to post my findings and send your tool back to ya.

If not then you will have to wait for a few months.

[Structure240sx]

awesome, hopefully soon we can prove this thoery for sure.

does that snap on obdII scanner also work for obdI cars since it plugs into the consult port? what other features does it have?

[virus77]

awesome, hopefully soon we can prove this thoery for sure.

does that snap on obdII scanner also work for obdI cars since it plugs into the consult port? what other features does it have?

Im not sure if it would work on a OBD1 cars, it does have like 3 nissan plugs, one being the consult one so it might have limited reading capabilites. It monitors timing, maf voltage, o2 sensors, iacv, and all the other common sensors along with reading and reseting all codes.

[Structure240sx]

how much does it cost? got any pics of it?

[Red-KAT]

I looked up one snap-on scantool and it was $3500

[virus77]

I have an old school one like on of these, it was thousands years ago.http://search.ebay.com/snapon-...romZR

[daniel240]

I have a quick question. tomorrow im going to use one of these scanners to see what my timing is at wot. what should i set my timing to at wot running at 8psi?

[WDRacing]

At 5-6 psi you'll want to start retard at about .5 per lb of boost. Since your using a btm, just .5 per lb will be fine. Although only running 8lbs and having the EGR retard timing you don't need to retard at all IMO.

Initially you want to run stock timing, 20*. The see what the EGR is pulling out.

[daniel240]

so basically i want my timing to be at about 16* at wot, correct?

[WDRacing]

Yep.

[daniel240]

ok thanks!

[MaxType 240]

You all know it doesn't have to be a "Snap-on" scanner. My $150 OBD scanner does it. Having the scanner is better than a MDM-100, just not pretty. The Blitz RVIT sure is though but that doesn't have full OBD scanning...

Jesse

[300max]

I thought this a very intersting theory and decided to ask a guy (Ash Powers) from twinturbo.net. He cracked the nissan ECU awhile back and has designed his own standalone for the z32 as well as an ecu that was proven to operate better than JWT's. He indicated that egr removal does not retard timing. Of course he does mainly z32 stuff and there might be some differences between makes and programs.

[Structure240sx]

jesse - where did you get your scan tool?

300- hmmm, just as i start to get confident that it is the egr you shoot me down. i really wish we knew exactly why this was happening

[Red-KAT]

What scanner you got?

[virus77]

Yeah I said it before too. I dont think it is the EGR that is causing the timing retard to happen, I reset all codes before testing timing, while no CEL was on. But, I dont have an answer to why the total timing gets to 17 or so. Has anyone with a normally aspirated car testing timing at wot to see what numbers it gives.

[NateDogg]

Some things that come to mind when talkin about timing and stock ecu's:-coolant temp sensor-high coolant temps-tps out of whack

All of these could be omitted by the CEL. Just something to think about.

[MaxType 240]

I have something similar to this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...43998

Mine has multiple menus. I use it mainly for timing, water temp (to check CTS), fuel injector duty. Hooks up to my OBD port on the drivers side fuse panel.

Jesse

[Red-KAT]

I cant get to E-Bay at work... Do you just have the name of the make and name of the tool. Posted here?

Thanks.

[mikesloud]

Ok, so on Virus's early posts, he said he had 15-17 -minus 3-on emanage so it is on 13-15degrees at WoT. he said it is faster then, instead of 15-17? i am confused, I have jim wolf ecu ,72lb setup on built 8:5 motor, when i retard from 18-19 to 16 degrees on distributor at wide open throttle ,it feels sluggish, should i retard more to 13-14 degrees? I am running 17psi daily 93 octane, 23psi on 110. Help me understand how I can get more power ,turn up timing or down? thanks

[klattr1]

Ok, so on Virus's early posts, he said he had 15-17 -minus 3-on emanage so it is on 13-15degrees at WoT. he said it is faster then, instead of 15-17? i am confused, I have jim wolf ecu ,72lb setup on built 8:5 motor, when i retard from 18-19 to 16 degrees on distributor at wide open throttle ,it feels sluggish, should i retard more to 13-14 degrees? I am running 17psi daily 93 octane, 23psi on 110. Help me understand how I can get more power ,turn up timing or down? thanks

put your base timing at 20 degrees. refer to http://www.ka-t.ort/tech on how to do it properly.

your car prolly feels sluggish because you retarded 3-5 degrees on top of what Jim Wolf programs in the maps. With my old JWT 72lb, cobra mafs program, I was getting around 14-15 degrees at WOT according to my MDM Techtom. Jim Wolf already retards the timing in the maps so you just put the base timing at stock and dont worry about a thing.

Everyone else in the above posts were referring to stock ecu's which are mapped for a naturally aspirated setup. this means there would be more timing due to the inherent higher compression ratio and due to the fact its naturally aspirated. Dont let them confuse you.

Now for everyone above, its tough what to say is causing the stock ecu's to retard the timing in the maps so much. Maybe its the EGR, maybe its something else. who knows. its just hard to say since everyone that has reported it, is using a SAFC or Emanage, z32 mafs and almost twice the size injector. this could put the car way out of where its supposed to be.think about the different mafs voltage calibration differences between the z32 mafs and the stock ecu, the size difference between the two as far as cross-sectional area, the difference in size of injectors between the two, etc.

Hopefully we can find out more on this. Ive been doing some testing so far and so far I havent found a culprit but ive been testing it on NA 240sx's which doesnt have a turbo, bigger injectors, bigger mafs, and SAFC for correction.

if i or structure find out anything useful or reliable enough for people to use as setups on their turbo ka's, we will definitely let yall know.

[virus77]

Mine is on a stock s14 mafs