So... what about Audi?

[RicerX]

I used to have a VW Jetta. MkIV (2001) 1.8T 5MT Wolfsburg Edition. It was my firsthand introduction to Das Auto. Das German Engineering. I came from a 97 Cavalier, so naturally at a ripe young age, I thought I was driving a four door Lamborghini in comparison. I loved the look of it. The car drove very nicely for my college commute and had plenty of power on the low-end. I bought it certified used from the local VW/Audi dealer with 30k on the clock.

That car was the biggest piece of s*** I ever spent money on. Two and a half years and 60k miles later, I got rid of it because I simply could not afford to drive it anymore and go to school. That was when my Nissan streak started.

Several years later, I'm finding that I'm assessing the luxury sport scene with plans of babies and such in my somewhat near future. I'm in the Mazda lot helping out the missus shop the crossover market (next door to Audi here in town), and I stumble upon an absolutely stunning 2014 Audi S4 in Estroil Crystal Blue. 3.0 V6 SC Quattro with 6MT. Price tag is right at the peak of what I would want to spend. This might be the perfect all-around "Daddy-mobile" for me. Similar power to the Z (far better power curve), but with the fit and finish and extra two doors I would need. Sadly, in its price range, the Japanese have absolutely nothing to offer in the segment (save perhaps a new Lexus IS 350 F Sport, but no gear-rowing option) and everyone drives a 3-series already. A Subaru STi offers the same performance capability but with nowhere near the finesse, and I'm just not a Cadillac guy (even though I very much respect what they're doing with the brand).

But, seeing that blue on that hopped up German sedan reminded me of the Galaxy Blue Metallic of that turd-bucket Jetta I drove all those years ago. I could not shake feeling like I would be signing up for the same roller coaster of transmission failures, crappy electrical components, and check engine lights.

It has been well over ten years and I'm well aware that an Audi is (should be?) a far cry from a Jetta.

Would you buy an Audi today feeling confident in it being a vehicle that would last and provide a worry-free driving experience?

[Kompresshun]

My mechanic works on a variety of different imports and he loves German cars, but he HATES Audi's. I'm sure it wouldn't be junk at first, but if you buy one you might as well prepare to be raped on repairs now. Maintenance is going to probably cost you double.

Don't get me wrong though - I LOVE S4's, but I wouldn't touch one with a 10 foot pole, Greg's d!ck, and you pushin'. Just sayin'.

If you want four doors and fun, why not pick up a used Pontiac G8 GXP?

[RicerX]

I should have expanded - I'm really not a GM/domestic guy, period. Except maybe a Viper, but obviously that's not in the cards.

[MinisterofDOOM]

Used VW products are a bad move. VW products under warranty can be a good move.

I LOVE Audi, but with some big caveats.

I love their engines, their fondness of sedans and wagons, their styling (clean, purposeful, and elegant), and their ability to blend road manners with driving pleasure (something some OTHER German makes lack even the slightest understanding of), their use of lightweight materials like aluminum.

I HATE their obsession with AWD, their German-typical penchant for overengineering, their obsession with tech, and their lack of affordable day-to-day reliability.

I have thought semi-seriously about buying a first-gen S8 on many, many occasions. I have never gone for it because I know it would be a disastrously expensive car to own, and they were all AWD anyway, which just doesn't sit well with me.

At the end of the day, Audi makes two of the most beautiful cars in production (A5, A7) both of which can be powered with one of the best-performing engines on the market, and has demonstrated that everyone else's misguided "coupelike sedan" approach is really just a poor realization of what has always been one of the sedan's best arrangements: the fastback. The A7 is to the CLS as fine swiss chocolate is to a steaming lump of manure.

[PapaSmurf2k3]

Why buy Audi when you can buy BMW/Porsche?

Infiniti seems to think they'll be releasing something that can fight the good fight too... so you might want to wait for that.

[MinisterofDOOM]

Why buy Audi when you can buy BMW/Porsche?

BMW's styling has gotten...lost. Audis are far nicer looking and arguably nicer to drive.

Porsche is busy selling cars with the engine in the wrong place and rebadged crossovers instead of bettering their one worthwhile model (Cayman). Oh, and then there's the pricing, where you can spend the cost of an entire Audi just adding options to a Porsche.

[Jesda]

This is what most Audis look like...



...when they get their headlamp bulbs replaced.



Manual Quattros are nice. Audi FWD CVTs are evil.

[gwoods]

Audi makes Jaguar owners feel better about their reliability...

BTW this is what happens when my Jag needs brakes again (last done at 21k (at least it is free))

[gwoods]

I have thought semi-seriously about buying a first-gen S8 on many, many occasions. I have never gone for it because I know it would be a disastrously expensive car to own, and they were all AWD anyway, which just doesn't sit well with me.

At the end of the day, Audi makes two of the most beautiful cars in production (A5, A7) both of which can be powered with one of the best-performing engines on the market, and has demonstrated that everyone else's misguided "coupelike sedan" approach is really just a poor realization of what has always been one of the sedan's best arrangements: the fastback. The A7 is to the CLS as fine swiss chocolate is to a steaming lump of manure.

Lots of wisdom in your post MOD as usual. AWD in Phoenix is like wearing snow boots year round. I have a 4x4 Sequoia with 4.10 gears a locking center diff, locking diffs ect ect if I need something snow capable I drive it.

[AZ89two4Tsx]

I used to have a VW Jetta. MkIV (2001) 1.8T 5MT Wolfsburg Edition....had plenty of power on the low-end

Huh? The 1.8T is a gutless motor.

Anyways, I personally don't have anything bad to say about Audi other than typical electrical issues, expensive maintenance, etc.... It's a German car.

I would stay away from the 2.0T found in the Jetta/Passat/A4 though. My roommate has a 2.0T Passat and it's the biggest POS ever. Thing has 76K miles and has been in the shop at least 5 times for major repairs. Last time was for over $3500. It starves itself of oil without the light coming on and burns it like no tomorrow. It's even had the camshaft replaced among other things (he only keeps it because it's under warranty). It drives like crap and the steering is sloppy too.

All this while my 162K mile Maxima is about due for some new struts and has never had any more engine work than an oil change. And I beat on it way harder than he drives his car.

[Bubba1]

What about Audi? I would consider buying a new one but only if I planned to replace it before the warranty expired, as is the case with most new European cars. They are sophisticated, well made, refined and well engineered. the problem is that sophistication/complexity translates to more things that can break/wear out and more painful to the wallet to repair. The Audi engineers crammed a lot into a relatively small space, which Is good, but on the flip side, many independent mechanics will suggest those engineers were more concerned about making it fit than making it easier to access for repair.

As far as used ones go, most hardcore Audi fans will tell you the last GREAT Audi was the 1995.5 S4/S6 sedan. It was big, roomy, comfortable, very reliable (turbo 5 cylinder), well built, fast, handled well, luxurious, decent gas mileage, not filled with needless electronic complexity yet was literally over-engineered. I have friends that still use theirs as their DD's and track day cars (despite their size and age). That era model are impressive cars and hidden gems. You gotta drive one to understand how great they are. I expect those old S4's to begin appreciating soon, but not so for the ones built after that.


As far as the "newer" used ones, their reported average reliability is about on par with Mercedes, below the pre-idrive BMW's, better than Jaguar but well below the major Japanese marques. Which means, individual anecdotes aside, they're not dreadful, but not great either. If all factors were equal, and you're looking for a somewhat upscale luxury sedan, I would suggest looking at a used Infiniti before an Audi.

But if you live in an area that gets lotsa snow, the Audi becomes a more compelling choice as the Quattro is one of the best AWD systems out there. Yes, you can get more a less expensive, more reliable AWD car with a Subaru, but the Subie will feel cheaper and less refined by comparison. The big question is whether you think the Audi's luxury and refinement is worth the extra cost. The more budget conscious folks will likely say no, but the truth is, that answer will be different for everyone.



I hope that helps.

[gwoods]

G37x

[krash]

I would stay away from the 2.0T found in the Jetta/Passat/A4 though. My roommate has a 2.0T Passat and it's the biggest POS ever. Thing has 76K miles and has been in the shop at least 5 times for major repairs. Last time was for over $3500. It starves itself of oil without the light coming on and burns it like no tomorrow. It's even had the camshaft replaced among other things (he only keeps it because it's under warranty). It drives like crap and the steering is sloppy too.

Weird, My friend has a 2.0T GTI (2007) that he's modified (ARP tune, downpipe, IC piping) and he beats the piss out of it, it never complains. Other than a weird throttle body issue that was resolved by changing the TB harness, its been pretty good.

[Looneybomber]

The Audi S4's and S5's are some fantastic looking cars. There's no question Audi makes the best looking german sedans...but as mentioned with their reliability, they'd be the last german car I'd pick to own used. With a warranty it becomes a moot point, but then I keep on thinking about the depreciation of a new car after 4yrs.

For cool dad cars, I'm looking for a 911, 135i, or a 335d, but I'm also looking at coupes and not sedans. In the end I prob wont buy anything for a while, but that's what I have narrowed my list to. The Focus ST would be an alright car, but you're not looking for a domestic, and I am not looking for FWD.

[Jesda]

Came -very- close to picking up a 2004 A8 today. Stunning car with a professional exterior and a sumptuous interior and the price was $2500 below retail. Unfortunately, the transmission was shifting kind of funny at just 100k.

Blech.

[Jesda]

For cool dad cars, I'm looking for a 911, 135i

*drool*

This and the Z4 are the last of the real "Ultimate Driving Machine" BMWs. Simple, no-s*** cars that are rewarding to drive.

[nissangirl74]

I've never heard anyone but Joel have anything good to say about Audi. I have never driven one, don't know anyone personally that does, but 99% of all feedback I have heard is that they are a nightmare. That being said, if you really have your heart set on one, make sure you buy it with a warranty and make sure you ditch it before the warranty runs out.

[skydragoness]

OP owned a VW and hated it and wants a Audi? You know they're the same company right?
Audis are just overengineered, more luxuious AWD VWs. Stay far away.



I really like the cars though...the performance and looks are amazing but not a good decision for longevity/reliabilty...probably okay if you lease one and get rid of it quickly/before the warranty expires. I would imagine getting things warrantied is a service nightmare too.

[RicerX]

I used to have a VW Jetta. MkIV (2001) 1.8T 5MT Wolfsburg Edition....had plenty of power on the low-end

Huh? The 1.8T is a gutless motor.

In context of coming from a 1997 Cavalier, not so gutless. When what I originally wrote is chopped up like above, it is very easy for one to completely miss that point.

OP owned a VW and hated it and wants a Audi? You know they're the same company right?
Audis are just overengineered, more luxuious AWD VWs. Stay far away.

Very aware of the fact they're the same company. Just curious as to whether or not things have changed in the last 13 model years as far as reliability/quality is concerned.

[RicerX]

The Audi S4's and S5's are some fantastic looking cars. There's no question Audi makes the best looking german sedans...but as mentioned with their reliability, they'd be the last german car I'd pick to own used. With a warranty it becomes a moot point, but then I keep on thinking about the depreciation of a new car after 4yrs.

For cool dad cars, I'm looking for a 911, 135i, or a 335d, but I'm also looking at coupes and not sedans. In the end I prob wont buy anything for a while, but that's what I have narrowed my list to. The Focus ST would be an alright car, but you're not looking for a domestic, and I am not looking for FWD.

You bring up a good point with studying depreciation. That's something I haven't yet looked at with a recent model S4. I will say that my VW actually held its value quite well despite being the bucket of s*** that it was. Of my Nissans, Mazda, and Chevy, the Jetta was the best I had up until the Speed 3. The Speed 3 is absolutely fantastic on value retention for some reason. Even Edmunds likes it.

As far as a Daddy coupe goes, if I buy a daddy-car with four seats and two doors, it will be a GT-R. After this past weekend, I realized that this could be a possibility, but I won't rush into it. I'm about a year or two away from being seriously in the market, so for now I'm just looking over things and studying.

[RicerX]

Why buy Audi when you can buy BMW/Porsche?

Infiniti seems to think they'll be releasing something that can fight the good fight too... so you might want to wait for that.

I have tried to like BMW... but I just can't. If I bought one, it would have to be an M3... and I don't know. It just doesn't click with me. I've driven a 2011 with the SMG transmission and it was like an arcade game. Truly wicked car, don't get me wrong. Just didn't quite feel inspired by it.

As far as Porsche... I'm kinda meh there too. Partially because I would prefer a four-door performance car and I would never spend $100k on a Panamera. If I'm going to go 2+2 coupe in that range, the GT-R is all I would want.

As far as Infiniti goes, you think something capable of an adrenaline dump would show up before 2025? I have been waiting for something exciting from them for nearly 10 years and it hasn't happened yet.

[Jesda]

SMG is awful.

The 6-speed manual E46 M3 is a lot of fun, however, if you don't mind having your bones rattled a bit.

[Looneybomber]

As far as a Daddy coupe goes, if I buy a daddy-car with four seats and two doors, it will be a GT-R. After this past weekend, I realized that this could be a possibility, but I won't rush into it. I'm about a year or two away from being seriously in the market, so for now I'm just looking over things and studying.

The '09 GT-Rs are getting into the 40's now and in a cpl more will be in the 30's. Cool dad car? Hell ya! I just can't get past their styling. They are all bite (performance) with no bark (intimidating presence). Their styling is improving, but not in the direction I like. I love the looks of the Jag XK, F-Type and Aston martin DB9, DBS.

SMG is awful.

The 6-speed manual E46 M3 is a lot of fun, however, if you don't mind having your bones rattled a bit.

Jarring ride?

BTW, had an E90 M3 accel past me today while walking. That V8 sounds so good.

[LEMHEAD16]

This is what most Audis look like...



...when they get their headlamp bulbs replaced.

What you fail to mention is that it only takes about 10 minutes to get an Audi to that point. I can pull my A8 in, put it on stands and have the entire front end stripped off in 10-15 minutes (minus waiting for the radiator to drain).

....and you don't have to go the that much trouble to change the head light bulbs. 4 phillips head screws and the whole assembly will slide out.

Yes, the engines are crammed into the engine bay and the AWD system makes things more complicated, but Audi does a pretty good job of making things easy to disassemble/reassemble. There is also plenty of room around the sides and back of the engine to access things like coolant hoses and electrical connectors.

I'd rather work on my 98 A8 any day than my 95 Q45. Infiniti did nothing to make working on the VH any easier. They hid all the vacuum lines under than manifold along with EVERYTHING ELSE.

The only major draw back to driving a higher mileage Audi is the fact that steel bolts in aluminum tend to weld themselves together. You don't want to buy a beat up Audi, but one that has seen proper maintenance shouldn't be any worse than an older Nissan.

[Jesda]

I can replace injectors in a Q45 in 45 minutes. Plenum off, R&R, plenum on. There is no need to touch the radiator or anything else. There are no secondary electric water pumps or other odds and ends that add additional cost and complexity to normal maintenance.

The transmissions in early A8s are made of bubble gum and hope and the A8's all-aluminum second-generation successor is only marginally better.

Most importantly, the VH is no longer in production so the comparison is moot. VW's modular platforms are great for profits, crap for DIYers and secondhand owners.


And the Slovakian-built Audi Q7? Absolute GARBAGE.

http://jesda.com/2012/11/24/quick-drive ... udi-q7-v8/

[LEMHEAD16]

Jesda I've been following you, mostly in a creeping lurky kind of way for over a decade, so I feel comfortably saying this.

Hood up to hood down on a Q45 injector job in 45 minutes is

I've been knuckle deep in many VHs and I just don't see that happening, that is a 4.5 book hour job.

[gwoods]

I have a Jesda doll made from human skin and have been hiding in your basement and I call bs

[Jesda]

Jesda I've been following you, mostly in a creeping lurky kind of way for over a decade, so I feel comfortably saying this.

Hood up to hood down on a Q45 injector job in 45 minutes is

I've been knuckle deep in many VHs and I just don't see that happening, that is a 4.5 book hour job.

Book schmook!

Remove the plenum bolts, prop it up/aside carefully with a wood block or phone book, use an impact driver to pop the injector screws out, yank the injector out of the hole with a steady and firm rotation, then pop in the new injector with a bit of grease and new o-rings (and new screws), then reattach the plenum. Once I felt that familiar misfire rocking the car from side to side, I immediately knew what to do and got quite proficient at it -- not out of DIY joy, but out of necessity.

Same goes for the rubber plenum/throat that connects the TB to the plastic intake on later Northstar Cadillacs. GM service manual calls for several hours. I was in and out in less than 3 on Christmas Day including several food and drink breaks. Actual "job" time was about 90 minutes, much of it spent fiddling around with the intake manifold and figuring out where all the screws went.

Heck, I'd be comfortable doing the starter on a Northstar too which is located deep in the valley on top of the engine, underneath the intake. People complain about it all the time but it's really not that hard once you dig in.





I strongly considered an A6 2.8 at one point (my mechanic was selling it), but after he described all the work he put into it to keep it drivable, I passed. That said, the 2.8 is supposed to be a pretty dependable engine. However, we don't get enough snow most years to justify having AWD.

If another cheap A8 comes around with a transmission that actually shifts properly, I'll likely purchase it for resale.

[Bubba1]

Very aware of the fact they're the same company. Just curious as to whether or not things have changed in the last 13 model years as far as reliability/quality is concerned.

They've had their ups and downs over the last 13 years in terms of reliability. If you're looking at brand new ones, they're currently riding a good wave. As far as quality is concerned, they've maintained a high level. the gorilla in the room is like all German marques, they've piled on the complexity over the last 13 years, which caused a dip in reliability, but all the German marques have been working on it. So whether all that technology is good or bad depends on you.


I've driven (or ridden in) every model Audi dating back a few decades, so I do appreciate them. But at the end of the day, I own Japanese cars, not Audis.

[elwesso]

Very aware of the fact they're the same company. Just curious as to whether or not things have changed in the last 13 model years as far as reliability/quality is concerned.

They've had their ups and downs over the last 13 years in terms of reliability. If you're looking at brand new ones, they're currently riding a good wave. As far as quality is concerned, they've maintained a high level. the gorilla in the room is like all German marques, they've piled on the complexity over the last 13 years, which caused a dip in reliability, but all the German marques have been working on it. So whether all that technology is good or bad depends on you.


I've driven (or ridden in) every model Audi dating back a few decades, so I do appreciate them. But at the end of the day, I own Japanese cars, not Audis.

I would also question the 45 minute injector job on a Q. If it's one on the passenger side, maybe, but if it's one on the drivers side then the plenum has to come off entirely, which adds a ton of time. But that's not what this thread is about.

I would never own any German car with an SMG, period. Scratch that, I'd probably never own a car with an SMG, period. SMG's are a mix between an AT and MT, with all of the bad parts of an AT with none of the good parts of an MT. A regular AT with a valve body shift kit is going to be basically as good as an SMG all day long, and way easier and cheaper to replace. The obvious choice is 3 pedals though.

The thing that scares me about most Audi's is the fact that many of the issues they're plagued with are electrical, which means you're stuck going to the dealer for computer resets and stuff like that. Correct me if I'm wrong, but as a DIYer that's a major turn-off. I can replace parts, that's no problem. That is really the case with any modern car anymore, however German cars aren't known for their rock solid electronics.

For instance, on my BMW M coupe, which basically has NO electronics.. If you run the battery low for whatever reason, it puts itself into "limp mode", which disables the radio, fan/HVAC and other stuff, and apparently the only way to get it out of limp mode is to take it to the dealer for a "reset". I think that's garbage.

Audi also likes timing belts, which I despise.