So about those cams... Good news and bad news.

[SuperHatch]

Since everyone likes good news, brought the car to the dyno today to get an initial tune before hitting up the track tomorrow.

When I dynoed the 240 last year it made 225WHP and 365WTQ, yeah I know crazy numbers and all, well deal with the whole fake torque high stall converter deal and the power robbing TH400 trans and wait for the good part.

With the cams and 1 degree more timing up top, the car made 263WHP and I don't rememeber the torque. By the way, it made 260-263WHP from 5200RPM to 7300RPM. Thats a solid gain of 35-38WHP untuned for the most part.

So the bad news... it spun a bearing on the last pull. No track times, sorry guys.

I'm taking a break, I'm going to finish Nick's new crossmember and not work on anything for a good long while. Peace...

[1WheelWonder]

Holy crap that's horrible news, I was really looking forward to seeing how the car did this year!

[Orphan]

I don't give you permission to stop working on it :P haha. Hope it goes well once you get started again.

[LEMHEAD16]

Wow that really sucks. Whats with all the VHs spinning bearings. It seems like everybody gets their project finished and then spins one.

How many miles were on the motor?

Awesome numbers though!

[90TSIAWD]

Tough break especially after seeing such great gains initially. I hope things get put back together eventually. Good luck with that once you decide to get back into it.

LEMHEAD16, if I remember correctly on either the page or one of the videos it said roughly 131,000 I think.

[DJ Raijin]

so tuned and not running a TH400 we can expect to see about 300whp? That's awesome.

Sucks about the spun bearing though. It's always nice to take a break. It helps you refocus yourself though and get motivation back.

[elwesso]

Do you think that the cams are worth the effort? i mean 40HP is significant, but all things considered???

Im thinking that boost is the way to go.

[tmorgan4]

That really sucks to hear.

It seems like it's about time to figure out why these VHs all seem to be spinning bearings. I haven't heard of a single stock Q45 that spun a bearing although I'm sure it has happened many times. Do any of the VG, SR, or RB engines have these problems?

[SuperHatch]

Wow that really sucks. Whats with all the VHs spinning bearings. It seems like everybody gets their project finished and then spins one.

How many miles were on the motor?

Awesome numbers though!

There were somewhere around 130,000 miles and 100+ passes on the motor. It wasn't the best maintained either, but it ran.

Tough break especially after seeing such great gains initially. I hope things get put back together eventually. Good luck with that once you decide to get back into it.

LEMHEAD16, if I remember correctly on either the page or one of the videos it said roughly 131,000 I think.

You have a good memory. I don't think the motor was to blame, I think the 8000RPM was to blame. Yes, I rev'd it that high, and it made power that high as well. It was still making 240WHP+ at that RPM.

so tuned and not running a TH400 we can expect to see about 300whp? That's awesome.

Sucks about the spun bearing though. It's always nice to take a break. It helps you refocus yourself though and get motivation back.

I'm seen tuned stock VH's make 300WHP through a Z32 5-speed. I'd expect 340WHP cam'd.

Do you think that the cams are worth the effort? i mean 40HP is significant, but all things considered???

Im thinking that boost is the way to go.

I don't know how to respond to this. Were you expecting 100WHP? A 40WHP gain NA from a cam change only is significant in anyones book. I'd easily expect another 10HP after a tune. 50WHP total is a 20% increase in output.

That really sucks to hear.

It seems like it's about time to figure out why these VHs all seem to be spinning bearings. I haven't heard of a single stock Q45 that spun a bearing although I'm sure it has happened many times. Do any of the VG, SR, or RB engines have these problems?

Like I said above, I don't think the VH was to blame. The mileage, poor previous maintenance, and 8000RPM are what caused it.

The current plan is high comp pistons (12.5:1), ARP rod bolts, and a balanced rotating assembly in an otherwise stock bottom end.

While the motor is being built I'm going to take care of a lot of other issues that have been bothering me with the car, but when its done it will be better than ever.

[Orphan]

Sounds great. I can't wait to see the results. If you can get near 340whp out of a standard VH45 with cams and a tune that is quite impressive with with that 12.5:1 compression you should be looking at some nice numbers.

Forgive my lack of knowledge but what would be a safe compression level for the road? I haven't really seen any production car over 11.3:1? Over here you can get 98 ron from literally about 98% of petrol stations and a few shell stations offer 100 ron.

EDIT: I just found out the newish BMW M3 4L v8 has a CP of 12.0:1 so I'm guessing using 12.0:1 would be fine on a street engine if tuned right?

It seems prepped VH45 rods are fine for 400-450hp so with the ARP bolts what revs do you think would be fine on them? Because while they aren't the most robust rod they are pretty decent looking even compared to some aftermarket rods besides they aren't billet.

[SuperHatch]

Sounds great. I can't wait to see the results. If you can get near 340whp out of a standard VH45 with cams and a tune that is quite impressive with with that 12.5:1 compression you should be looking at some nice numbers.

Forgive my lack of knowledge but what would be a safe compression level for the road? I haven't really seen any production car over 11.3:1? Over here you can get 98 ron from literally about 98% of petrol stations and a few shell stations offer 100 ron.

EDIT: I just found out the newish BMW M3 4L v8 has a CP of 12.0:1 so I'm guessing using 12.0:1 would be fine on a street engine if tuned right?

It seems prepped VH45 rods are fine for 400-450hp so with the ARP bolts what revs do you think would be fine on them? Because while they aren't the most robust rod they are pretty decent looking even compared to some aftermarket rods besides they aren't billet.

I'm figuring the increased compression is worth another 20HP, but only time will tell. I don't think this motor will be done before next winter. I don't have boatloads of cash to throw at this car, right now I'm just dealing with the fact that I won't get to race this season.

You can't compare "safe" compression ratios from one engine to another. Combustion chamber design has a huge effect on detonation resistance and allowable CR. Isn't the new M3 direct injection?

Anyway, I'm not planning on running pump gas, the engine will likely see 104 octane Sunoco unleaded race fuel. I would go even higher with the CR, but I don't know what is achievable with the VH's CC design and the valve reliefs necessary for save P/V clearance. Also, Sunoco 104 is much cheaper and easier to tune for than a super high octane leaded race fuel.

I don't think the VH rods will have any problem surviving at 8000RPM with ARP bolts. The greatest stress on a conrod is at TDC on the exhaust stroke. The rod is completely in tension which puts loads of stress on the rod bolts. The piston acceleration at high revs and that cycle time is very high.

Anywho, I'll take pictures and hopefully Mark at Maz will work with me on developing the pistons. Still havn't gotten in contact with him to even talk about the cam results. He's a busy guy...

[Carl H]

a 40-50hp gain from cams is nothing to sneeze at and is actually quite impressive.im curious tho as to if you changed the oil pump drive chain when you had it apart...i find it odd that there have been several vh engines with spun bearings that have seen relatively 'little' extreme duty.

[SuperHatch]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlOYnttl8w0

[SuperHatch]

a 40-50hp gain from cams is nothing to sneeze at and is actually quite impressive.im curious tho as to if you changed the oil pump drive chain when you had it apart...i find it odd that there have been several vh engines with spun bearings that have seen relatively 'little' extreme duty.

It was still the original chain, retensioned to factory tolerances. FWIW I have an oil pressure gauge and warning light, the motor never lost pressure. The crank pulley was also tensioned to factory specs.

The revs killed it, period.

[Orphan]

Why does the engine sound a bit like a helicopter (first cam'ed vid). What was it idleing at with the cams?

Can't wait until mettler finishes his research and see how the cam support comes up for these engines, using the VTC should be able to run some decent cams while retaining drivability.

[gs14racer]

Steve,

With a short runner manifold or individual throttle bodies do you think you will see a bigger gain up top then just flat lining after 5500 rpms.

I would think with itbs, 12 to 1, and the cams 370+whp would be possible with a 9000rpm redline. I think at this point the intake manifold is holding you back. I mean figure 340 whp +15-20 for the higher compression, and your right there with the intake manifold change. Not to mention if you could up the displacement a bit say 4.8-5.0 liters which is definitly possible per mark.

[CrazyTrance]

It does seem quite dead at around 4-5000 rpm doesnt it. At least thats what mine feels like. Cams seem like it would liven it up. And a 40hp gain is actually very good! I was hoping for gains around there.

[SuperHatch]

Why does the engine sound a bit like a helicopter (first cam'ed vid). What was it idleing at with the cams?

Can't wait until mettler finishes his research and see how the cam support comes up for these engines, using the VTC should be able to run some decent cams while retaining drivability.

Probably because of my camera's sound quality.

Steve,

With a short runner manifold or individual throttle bodies do you think you will see a bigger gain up top then just flat lining after 5500 rpms.

I would think with itbs, 12 to 1, and the cams 370+whp would be possible with a 9000rpm redline. I think at this point the intake manifold is holding you back. I mean figure 340 whp +15-20 for the higher compression, and your right there with the intake manifold change. Not to mention if you could up the displacement a bit say 4.8-5.0 liters which is definitly possible per mark.

I talked to Mark this morning. I'm not sure which way I'm going to go yet on the intake, but the bottom end will definitely be built. Looser bearing tolerances, CP Pistons, ARP Rod bolts, etc...

I don't know about sleeving the block for a bigger bore. The custom head gaskets scare me, which is mostly due to my DSM experiences...

It does seem quite dead at around 4-5000 rpm doesnt it. At least thats what mine feels like. Cams seem like it would liven it up. And a 40hp gain is actually very good! I was hoping for gains around there.

The motor makes such a broad and flat torque curve that it never really feels "alive" even though it's really alive everywhere.

[hannibal]

Sorry to hear about your set back.

Steve,

With a short runner manifold or individual throttle bodies do you think you will see a bigger gain up top then just flat lining after 5500 rpms.

I would think with itbs, 12 to 1, and the cams 370+whp would be possible with a 9000rpm redline. I think at this point the intake manifold is holding you back. I mean figure 340 whp +15-20 for the higher compression, and your right there with the intake manifold change. Not to mention if you could up the displacement a bit say 4.8-5.0 liters which is definitly possible per mark.

This is pretty much John's setup. Dont remember what cams he's using though. I think it'll make close to 400whp.

Mark=mazworx??

[Mettler]

Do you think that the cams are worth the effort? i mean 40HP is significant, but all things considered???

I imagine like anything, cams alone won't net the desired gains without a few other changes... but I'm wondering whether 100HP/L will be achievable on the stock intake manifold... that's really all I'd be aiming for myself!

[PanzerAce]

I hate to say it, but I don't see that happening. ITBs + wild cam could probably do it with a good lower end, but on the stock manifold? I doubt it.

Of course, we may never know, since if someone builds a VH to do 100whp/L, they probably are going to ditch the stock intake already.

[Q45tech]

The arrival time of the 3rd and 4th harmonic reflected wave is a function of runner length and 248 intake cam timing so any increase in duration will position the wave wrong with respect to valve closing and allow reversion to occur.

To match the cam and achieve max gain one must shorten the runner length by ~~ 1/2 the % of duration increase...........somewhere between 0.6 and 1.8" shorter depending on duration.This will move the torque peak and HP peak up in rpm.

[PanzerAce]

I'll be honest, I never got the whole harmonics thing :o

Any good place to read up it enough to get a (working) understanding at the very least of the empirical effects of it (if not the underlying theory)

[Q45tech]

Simple the reflected wave arrives just before the intake valve closes [while air is still flowing thru the valve [effective lift > 10%].Visualize the cam duration in time while the piston is moving down and then moving up so at the end point the piston begins to push the air/fuel out in reverse thru intake valve. The harmonics job is to fight the outward reversion flow and keep the charge that has flowed into piston.

Everything about retaining the maximum charge. Of course that changes with rpm and charge temperature [which changes speed of sound].

Anyway a properly designed system can boost filling [VE] by 10% adding 10% to peak torque.

Start here and search Helmholtz:"the Chrysler advertising men said ram induction was new for 1960, the idea goes back 97 years earlier when Hermann Ludwig Ferdinand von Helmholtz developed mathematical equations for acoustics and resonance."

http://www.chrysler300club.com....html

"What problems did Chrysler solve to make ram induction viable for a production vehicle?

First, the engineering equations had to be meshed with the realities of the real world. In the real world, the speed of the pressure wave is affected by the cross sectional shape of the intake runner, the number of turns and bends in the intake, the temperature of the under hood air, the fuel evaporation cooling from the carb, the heating by the exhaust gas bypass pipes, the surface roughness of the manifold walls, and the list goes on. It would take considerable time and effort to evaluate these factors. To expedite the ram induction development program, Chrysler built adjustable length (telescoping) ram manifolds. With adjustable rams, Chrysler could easily evaluate different configurations until they got something that worked. Reliable sources say the ram configuration that reached production was designated as "stage 5". Secondly, solving the problem of under hood packaging was a hurdle. The ram manifolds not only had to fit under the hood, they had to be reasonably easy to service, and they had to survive for the normal life expectancy of the vehicle. There were also manufacturing problems: the long aluminum castings took every bit of manufacturing expertise available at the time to overcome porosity problems. "

http://www.chrysler300club.com...y.htm

Important to start back in 1960 and follow the development to fully understand

[PanzerAce]

Hmmm, interesting.

Though to be honest, when I got to the point about the adjustable length intake, I figured it would probably be easiest to, once I build my engine and get the ITBs, to get some spacers and just do dyno runs with a couple of configurations.

[Q45tech]

Difference between an engineer and a shade tree. The engineer defines the bounds mathematically and tries to start out as close as possible.50 years ago even the engineers were learning, now almost every engine uses Helmholtz designs.

Remember to compensate for the EXACT rpm when VVT changes [oil cutoff] and time delay until cam reverts...............you might want to change ~~ 4800 rpm to compensate for cams.

[PanzerAce]

Heh. Well, considering that my degree is going to be in history, shade tree is the best that I can go for.

On the VHs, what does the VVT actually control? Pictures I've seen only have one grind on them, so does it just adjust the timing relative to the crank? If so, I'm probably going to be ditching the system for my build (considering that I'm going to be getting custom cams anyways).

[Q45tech]

The purpose of VVT is two fold to allow a semi radical 248 cam [for a heavy lux car] to idle perfectly smooth before the oil pressure increase above idle pushes cam to 20 degrees BTDC where it stays until the oil pressure is cutoff by closing the VVT solenoid at 4500-4800 rpm. The VVT allows a 8-10% peak in torque from 3500-4500 rpm. That's 25>30 lb/ft.

VVT use only gets better with a more radical cam especially at idle.

[PanzerAce]

The purpose of VVT is two fold to allow a semi radical 248 cam [for a heavy lux car] to idle perfectly smooth before the oil pressure increase above idle pushes cam to 20 degrees BTDC where it stays until the oil pressure is cutoff by closing the VVT solenoid at 4500-4800 rpm. The VVT allows a 8-10% peak in torque from 3500-4500 rpm. That's 25>30 lb/ft.

VVT use only gets better with a more radical cam especially at idle.

Ok, I *think* I understand what you're saying now. What is the cam timing at idle then? And after the shutoff (or are they going to be the same).

It's great having a 30 year old engine setup, since I can do almost all the work myself, but I miss out on learning about alot of the advances (like VVT, etc).

Actually, you say it allows it to idle smoothly with it's cam, but how much of that could be solved by converting to ITBs? The impression I've got is that ITB setups tend to allow better idle with wild cams. And ignoring the slight tuning issues my current setup has, I can idle smoothly with a 276 degree cam with almost a half inch of lift, without any of this fancy stuff.

[DJ Raijin]

since everythings getting sold off, what are you doing with those cams and heads?