Should I put on a wing?

[Bubba1]

eh...i'm thinking of getting a front air diffuser...would that help?

No. A simple air dam or lowering the suspension would be far more effective and far less tacky looking than a diffuser. The idea is reduce the amount of air that flows beneath the car. A front diffuser by itself is basically useless. Pure cosmetic.

[MainEvent212]

well my car has a front bumper and is lowered so total ground clearance is about 2.5" or so...now is a diffuser ok? lol

[chmercer]

huh? somebody say home depot garden trim?

also, when you guys are saying air diffuser, are you talking about an air dam, similar to what i have in my picture, or a diffuser commonly seen on the rear of race cars, with the multiple strakes to straighten the airflow? because if you are talking about adding strakes to the underbody then this will have much less of an effect compared to an air dam.

ps - if anyone was thinking about the garden trim thing, i would suggest adding somthing else since it isnt very rigid and i imagine it would probably distort at high speed. i just did mine since i trashed my stock lip on an "off road excursion". possibly use aluminum plate instead? i have seen this done on a rr civic, and the aluminum plate is a good medium to add brake ducts to; i imagine it would be pretty hard to sturdily mount a brake duct in garden trim.

[Bubba1]

The air diffusers I'm talking about are vertical slats (looking for a better word) that redirect air flow underneath the car. You see them on race cars that have aerodynamically scultured undersides. problem is your car is not aerodynamically sculptured or "tuned" to determined if you would benefit from diffusers. It's the same thing as a wing, It has to be the perfect shape, position, size, location, and angle to be effective. And unless you spend time testing in a wind tunnel you're much more likely disrupting airflow than directing it in a more efficient manor. 2.5" clearance is very low for street car, I imagine you scrape a lot on driveways.

[MainEvent212]

i meant like the things they put under the front of the car to help direct airflow...not vertical but one big piece that goes horizontally underneath the front area of the car...and a rear splitter

[darkeagle]

That is one nice s13 Fred. It look too good and too clean to have a wing put on it.

[Bubba1]

Doesn't matter. As I said before, unless you have perfect size, location, angle and position, you're very likely going to disrupt air flow than making it more efficient. The only way to determine what that perfect size, location, angle, postion, etc. is for your car will require a significant amount of time with some good engineers with experience in aerodynamics, some good testing equipment, and a wind tunnel.

I know there are a lot of people that honestly think slapping on aftermarket wings/scoops/flares/diffusers, even Type R stickers improve performance of their cars. I hate to be a grinch, but it simply isn't true. It's cosmetic .....well maybe not the stickers. I'm sure they give you 15 more horsepower....(snicker). If you like the look of diffusers or a gigantic oversized wing on your deck lid, then by all means, do it, but if you're serious about high speed stability, you'll likely do better without aftermarket add-ons and do-dads.

All these after market wings/scoops flares you buy for that $2000 are mostly cosmetic. Hard to convince a kid of that.

[chmercer]

that is completly false bubba1. if you think every car in grassroots motorsports has spent hours in a wind tunnel you are totally mistaken.

there are multiple cheap ways to test aerodynamics. smoke bombs on the roof, watch the smoke path. long streamers have the same effect to help you see the slipstream. if the smoke doesnt hit your airfoil, raise it. if you have it so high that the smoke runs under the airfoil, lower it. run a lap, bolt a wing on, run a lap, if your second lap is slower then move the wing, if the car feels too loose increase the rake, if it feels too slow decrease the rake. This is all just basic principle. fluid dynamics is not nearly as set in stone as you are making it out to be.

ps "vertical slats" are called strakes. they dont redirect the airflow per se, just straighten the path to remove turbulence. they are used much more often in the rear of the car, but i have seen them in the front on rare occasion.

for the guy who mentioned canards, they are commonly called dive plates as well. From what i understand, these are more of a 'last resort' type item when you need more front end downforce but cannot get it by adjusting the front air dam because they are relativley high drag items. You commonly see them on jgtc cars as there are restrictions on how much they can modify their front aero for that class.

[PalmerWMD]

Good productive discussion keep it coming.

Fred..

[chmercer]

somone please call me if anything i say is wrong btw.

[Tsukai240]

. if the smoke doesnt hit your airfoil, raise it. if you have it so high that the smoke runs under the airfoil, lower it. run a lap, bolt a wing on, run a lap, if your second lap is slower then move the wing, if the car feels too loose increase the rake, if it feels too slow decrease the rake. This is all just basic principle. fluid dynamics

uh....... actualy (don't bite my head off) that is backyard trial and error. you still get verry good results.

[compression]

Stand back, here comes my 2cents:(you asked for it, right?)

NO WING! they are rediculous and unecessary on a street car. If you feel unstable, stiffen your suspension, check your tire pressure, try lower profile tires, front air dam, side skirts, etc. Besides how often are you ever going that fast? A wing ruins the clean lines of the car and screams "AMATEUR!".Because some drift cars use them you are supposed to get one? How often are you doing high speed drifting on a closed course for competition? probably never.

Quote »"I know there are a lot of people that honestly think slapping on aftermarket wings/scoops/flares/diffusers, even Type R stickers improve performance of their cars. I hate to be a grinch, but it simply isn't true. It's cosmetic .....well maybe not the stickers. I'm sure they give you 15 more horsepower....(snicker). If you like the look of diffusers or a gigantic oversized wing on your deck lid, then by all means, do it, but if you're serious about high speed stability, you'll likely do better without aftermarket add-ons and do-dads."[/quote]

I second that.

All the talk about aerodynamic theory should be thrown out becauses we are talking about street cars. So, can you really tell if your car "feels slow, because of too much rake in the wing"? I bet if I changed your rake angle by 6.743 degrees overnight, you would be .923 seconds later for work the next morning, ha hahaha. If you were to attempt this kind of testing, Obviously the enviroment in which you are testing has be controlled and held constant for every test, otherwise you have nothing.

ALso, the wing attracts unwanted attention from Johnny Law, and obstructs your rearview. Not to mention your trunk probably wont stay open when you want it to.

So anyway, I warned you, thats my opinion, nothing more, nothing less.Sorry if I offended anyone, that wasnt my goal. I was trying to bring the scope of the thread closer to what the real question is.

[Scorch]

the saleen s7 can drive upside down at 160 mph... now THATS downforce.

[jdmfreak]

Really? I heard that about the Enzo as well. How do they go about testing this?

Enzo>Saleen

[Tsukai240]

i have to agree w/compression

[Bubba1]

I agree that there are amateurs that will slap aftermarket stuff on their cars blindly thinking it'll improve their cars. Doesn't make it right. Of the racers I know, the overwhelming majority of whom are self financed or "grass-roots", NONE of them have or would even consider wasting money on some generic oversized aftermarket deck wing and then try to fiddle with it to figure if it'll help or hurt their lap times, which would differ for every track and condition anyway. There are much more important and bigger bang for the buck improvements to invest money on than wings. Of course none of the racers I know are teens. Younger kids seem preoccupied with wings/spoilers. It's a phase I guess

As an amateur enthusiast with limited funds who takes his car to the race track regularly, I'd much rather spend my hard earned money on bigger better brakes in order to brake later (shorten the braking zone) and immediately see lap time improvement than to spend that same money on some goofy wing will require a lot of massaging that unless is set up perfectly would worsen my times. And may not help at all even if I set up right. To an amateur like me, the choice is easy. No wing. But to a 16yr kid with little driving experience, who considers his underpowered $2500 240sx a blazing sports car and wants to look cool to his friends, the choice will more likely be yes to a wing. And odds are, he'll think his 240sx will be even faster with the generic wing on it, even though it's not true.

Will Fred's car become more stable if he slaps an aftermarket deck wing on his car? Maybe, BUT ONLY if it's the correct size, shape, location and angle. and that will take lotsa testing to find that point and even then, Fred may easily learn that he's faster and more stable without it. Save your money Fred, use it toward gas.

On the topic of tunel testing by amateurs, you don't need to if you do your homework. You'll find that many manufacturers do assist in wing/airflow management development for racing programs, BMW, Audi, Mercedes invest a lotta pesos in this stuff every year as they sponsor factory teams. And those aerodynamic aids commonly make their way down to the privateers, who do not have to invest in wind tunnel time. Naturally as the cars get older, amateurs also end up using the same model cars. Which means they too don't have to invest in wind tunnel work, because it's already been done by the factory. If a amateur is determined to spend that much effort/time in aero improvements, the smart ones will invest in what the factory teams have already used and then adjust the settings to their individual needs/preferences, which will vary greatly depending on how and where they drive, and what other custom stylings they've added.

FYI I think the smoke bomb idea is kinda clever.

[marshun]

ok. there are some companies that actually have their aero kits wind tunnel tested. MOST of our US ricer companies do not wind tunnel their kits.

i just wanted to shorten up the last couple of posts.

i totally agree with building up other aspects of the car before the wings, body kits, etc etc. its just the go before show mentality. the car has gotta perform as good as it looks. and if it out performs the way it looks, i think thats even better. hehe

[chmercer]

i was referring to http://www.grmotorsports.com/ in my previous post. increasing your brake size does not decrease your braking zone. it makes your bakes fade less. i can lock up my brakes whenever i want with stock s14 setup. if you want to decrease your braking distance get hoosiers. I dont want to argue with you anymore, but if you think that spoilers have no place in amateur roadracing then you are a fool.

fred, if you have a spare trunklid, why not try playing around with a cheap wing? so what if it dosent fix your problem, you can always fiddle with it or sell it back if it sucks.

[Bubba1]

And when your stock brakes start fadng after 10 laps, what happens to your stopping distance. Hmmm, it increases. Your lap times? Omigosh, it increases too. Amazing stuff. If you lock up your stock brakes at the end of every straightaway, sure you decrease your stopping distance. You also wear out your tires rather quickly. I said bigger/better brakes, not just bigger. Cmon. Of course R compund tires are going to improve braking and cornering. I used brakes simply as a comparison. And I would buy better tires long before a wing too. But if you think wings are a mandatory for all forms of amateur roadracing, then my feelings for you are the same. Of course they have their place in racing, but you gotta invest a lotta time/effort in order to make them worth while. Since we;re talking about are heavier street cars here , and not lightweight racers. Wings are simply not worth the hassle. There are better things to do to achieve high speed stability in a street car than adding an ugly wing that you don't even know works, but does scream "look at me I'm a kid" and does attract cops. Simply lowering the car a little would be more effective. Since you mentioned tires, Most Hoosier R compound race tires aren't street legal, but Fred might consider Z rated street tires with a lower sidewall profile. I don't know what tires he has on, but if he regularly sustains speeds well over 100 mph, he might want to consider Z rated rubber.

[weird240]

keep the car a sleeper