Shoot out at the OK corral, part 2.

[IBCoupe]

You're attributing thuggery to law abiding citizens, who for the most part, arent thugs. For one, I doubt most college students would even take the time to do what was necessary to be qualified to carry a gun, secondly, those few that would, they arent going to be shooting people for grades.

That pimply faced ham with hair you posted, whats the chance he got that gun legally, or even hazzarded a chance to try and get a conceal permit, or even learn how to use the darn thing.

Your confusing people who should have guns, with people who shouldnt. I dont say just anyone should have a gun, only those trained to use it, and given the proper authority to do so anywhere else but on your silly campus. There will be guns on campus, whether you like it or not, and the harder you make it for the right ones, the easier you make it for the wrong ones.

Wait, how many college students do we expect to want to carry to class? Your theory on free carry in schools is based on a pretty tenuous assumption.

It might just be that enforcing a campus-wide ban on guns wouldn't stop bad people from doing bad things, but I don't see that it follows that lifting the ban means that people are suddenly going to be wanting to bring a 9mm to class.

[bigbadberry3]

Hmmmmm.... from the teachers stand point, do the guns worry them? And can schools say keep your weapons at home regardless?

[AZhitman]

What's next? Sporting events? Church? The delivery room?

You continually fail to recognize that someone who has the intent to kill will already be in complete disregard of the law.

A law banning concealed carry in a sporting event, church, or delivery room will not stop someone who wants to carry a gun into one of those situations.

He's not gonna comprehend that. He's too busy living in fear of the monsters under the bed, while making excuses and defenses for the REAL dangers.

Until he presents a logical reason why it SHOULDN'T happen, there's no sense continuing to engage him in his fantasy world. BBB is the only one who's presented a potentially valid concern, and I agree with it.

Follow me around for the past 25 years and see how effective speed limits have been at modifying my behavior.

[srellim234]

I see the OP as being scared of shadows. The law in Arizona specifically states you must be at least 21 years old to get a permit. 99.9% of freshmen need not apply. You must complete an 8 hour course as part of the qualifications to obtain a permit. If a person is so blinded by emotion the odds are much better that the gun they're packing is going to acquired and carried illegally. The chances of college students "breaking up" the night before a tough final is very slim. The odds are much better that they were studying for the big exam instead of worrying about their social life. Hole after hole after hole in that OP, even as a hypothetical story.

Much more likely, a junior or senior named Omar decided to get a permit. Most likely he comes from a gun use family (law enforcement or hunting) so he is familiar with guns and is carrying on some kind of family tradition. He's in his early 20s now,. He has handled guns safely with his dad since he was in grade school or junior high and he has a real respect for them. He applied, complied with all the regulations, took the course and is now legally carrying his gun. The class takes a difficult 2 hour exam. They leave when it's over; no one else in the class ever knows that the gun was present.

The odds are probably better an accidental plane crash, earthquake or tornado will strike the building than there is the OP will happen.

[mattblancarte]

I am an AZ CCW holder, and you're right. You have to sit through a full day of instructors scaring the s*** out of you.

I completed that class with the utmost respect for carrying citizens because nine times out of ten you will get yourself thrown in jail for even presenting the firearm.

They really drill into you how dangerous it is, how much respect you must have, and how you should pretty much never ever use the weapon. I recommend the course at Scottsdale Gun Club. Great guys there.

[AZhitman]

^ Good info.

I don't carry, but I plan to take the course. Thanks Matt!

p.s. Steve, thanks for picking off the points one-by-one. No pun intended.

[stebo0728]

Wait, how many college students do we expect to want to carry to class? Your theory on free carry in schools is based on a pretty tenuous assumption.

It might just be that enforcing a campus-wide ban on guns wouldn't stop bad people from doing bad things, but I don't see that it follows that lifting the ban means that people are suddenly going to be wanting to bring a 9mm to class.

Thats precisely my point. For one, not many college students are going to have a concealed permit. And lifting the ban isnt going to all of a sudden trigger the ones who dont to go get one.

And now this is a question, I dont have a conceal permit to know, so I'm asking, but I assume part of the contract of the permit is that you arent allowed to carry when under any influence? Amirite there?

[IBCoupe]

I have no idea. But my point is that I'm not seeing a compelling argument against a ban on guns on campus.

[stebo0728]

I have no idea. But my point is that I'm not seeing a compelling argument against a ban on guns on campus.

How about liberty? But wait that hasnt been a compelling argument for anything for decades has it?

[themadscientist]

Wait, how many college students do we expect to want to carry to class? Your theory on free carry in schools is based on a pretty tenuous assumption.

It might just be that enforcing a campus-wide ban on guns wouldn't stop bad people from doing bad things, but I don't see that it follows that lifting the ban means that people are suddenly going to be wanting to bring a 9mm to class.

Thats precisely my point. For one, not many college students are going to have a concealed permit. And lifting the ban isnt going to all of a sudden trigger the ones who dont to go get one.

And now this is a question, I dont have a conceal permit to know, so I'm asking, but I assume part of the contract of the permit is that you arent allowed to carry when under any influence? Amirite there?

Look er up.
http://www.carryconcealed.net/
Every state has a different set of laws and it is the carrier's responsibility to be aware of them. I once explained to my wife the things I would have to do to carry across the country, stopping at state lines to place the weapon in the trunk, or to unload it or to put it in plain sight, perhaps changing the rounds I carry before leaving home because certain states view certain bullet types extra naughty etc. She got confused and it's understandable.

[IBCoupe]

I have no idea. But my point is that I'm not seeing a compelling argument against a ban on guns on campus.

How about liberty? But wait that hasnt been a compelling argument for anything for decades has it?

Liberty has always had to contend with public interest. I don't think it's terribly tyrannical for you not to be able to bring a gun to class.

[AZhitman]

I have no idea. But my point is that I'm not seeing a compelling argument against a ban on guns on campus.

Understanding that you're not really taking a hard line on this one, and hoping you recognize that I'm not either (I'm riding the fence and am more critical of the weak position of my opponent than the actual issue)...

Given that, shouldn't the opposite be the case? In other words, shouldn't the R/T's in this debate be expected to provide a compelling argument (replete with evidence and statistics) in FAVOR of banning guns on campus before we step out onto the "thin ice" of enacting additional regulations and yet another level of bureaucracy? Especially considering the obvious impossibility of proactively enforcing such a "ban"?

[stebo0728]

Liberty has always had to contend with public interest.

Ok, so let me as you this: when an issue comes up where no definable argument can be presented by either side, whats the default? Do you default to some conceived idea of public welfare, or do you default to personal liberty?

[IBCoupe]

Eh, I can easily imagine that there are increased costs to the University for having a permissive carry rule, be it from additional campus security expenses or the need for a heftier insurance policy.

Those are reasons enough in my mind, regardless of how dangerous the prospect of guns on campus are. See, from my perspective, R/T's going at it wrong. Your right to carry your gun wherever you please runs smack dab into the State's ability to run a public university.

Now that the Second Amendment has been incorporated via the Fourteenth in McDonald v. Chicago (2010), this is an issue that will probably wind up in front of the SCOTUS, but I imagine that, because there's a legitimate state interest in having an educated populace, and because this isn't a severe or intrusive limitation on your Second Amendment rights, they'll come out on the side of the University. And it'll probably be close to, if it isn't one, a unanimous opinion.

EDIT: Stebo, I was aiming for Greg, but this post was probably apt as a response to you, too.

[AZhitman]

...and if / when that's the case, it's a good enough argument for me. I considered the insurance ramifications, as well as the potential for conflict with some student athlete clauses.

(There'll be a lone dissenter if it goes to the SC. Someone's gotta toe the party line.)

In other news, you need to recruit some more help, Isaac. You can't carry the lefty water around here all by yourself.

[IBCoupe]

Haha, I don't feel lefty. I feel level-headed, with the way y'all are freaking out today. :P

I kid.

[bigbadberry3]

Can private institutions ban concealed weapons on their premise similar to that of court houses?

[szh]

Can private institutions ban concealed weapons on their premise similar to that of court houses?

Interesting ... I do not know the answer to this!

I do remember seeing signs at various companies that I have visited, here and in Canada, where they require "no concealed weapons".

Perhaps, it varies state by state?

Z

[mattblancarte]

Can private institutions ban concealed weapons on their premise similar to that of court houses?

Absolutely. This is enforceable by officers of the law, too. In fact, most places where large groups gather have a no-firearms policy.

Try to open carry into a mall in AZ. Ain't going to happen without you getting kicked out. You could also try to conceal-carry into the U.S. Airways Center in Phoenix, but they will frisk you and demand you relinquish any weapon prior to entry.

Laws differ from state to state. They are incredibly complex, and not to be taken lightly. My CCW instructor was a lawyer, and even after studying the subject for decades he is still unsure of each state.

I sold my WASR-10 (semi-automatic AK-47 rifle) prior to moving to WA. Why? Because I didn't want to carry through CA on the way. CA is notoriously strict when it comes to firearms.

As a side-note, I'd like to leave a general comment. Gun laws in AZ are incredibly strict, and even though you are allowed to open-carry, you will most likely be arrested for disturbing the peace if you choose to do so.

The vast majority of gun crime in the Phoenix metro area is a result of folks illegally carrying and using firearms. There are very few gun crimes in Scottsdale and North Scottsdale, where most people are affluent and respectful gun owners.

[srellim234]

Interesting side comment about the strictness of states. My wife, the sheriff's deputy, has been pulled over in 4 or 5 different states. She has a thing for driving 10 over the speed limit and seems to be one of those lucky people they catch.

Anyway, the first thing she trained to do is tell the officer is that she is an L.A. sheriff's deputy so she is packing. Every time the reaction has not been, "Thanks for telling me up front you have a gun." It's always been, "What is it with you California cops? You guys always tell us you're a cop first thing. Are you all trained out there to expect preferential treatment just because you're law enforcement back home?"

A couple of times they've gone on to say, "Heck, everybody we pull over is packing." Like it's no big deal there. It sure is here.

[mattblancarte]

Haha I can imagine they are giving her a hard time because she is a fellow officer of the law.

I can also imagine that the average Joe would engage in a slightly different conversation with law enforcement. Tons of people carry. It's not that uncommon.

Unlawful deadly shootings by CCW holders nationwide are legitimately uncommon compared to the number of gun crimes.

It's usually the dumb-asses without training or certification that screw things up for those who wish to be stealthily vigilant citizens. That's not to say that all those who carry lawfully will be perfect, but they are much more prepared and competent with the weapon.

[AZhitman]

...even though you are allowed to open-carry, you will most likely be arrested for disturbing the peace if you choose to do so.

You sure on that one?

Could be correct, just seems to me like I see a LOT of people open carrying.

[mattblancarte]

It's not a for-sure thing. I rarely saw people open-carry, and the ones I saw probably didn't get into any trouble.

I should probably have said that if you open-carry all of the time, you will most likely at some point run into some trouble of some sort. To the sensible gun owner, carrying is a game of minimizing risks. Open-carry adds many risks.

The strongest argument against open-carry is the fact that it's tactically stupid... For a handful of reasons.

It may be that AZ has changed in the two years I haven't been there. I left right before the whole immigration deal heated up and there may be a larger number of individuals choosing to carry.

In the five years I resided there, I think I saw less than ten open-carries by non-law enforcement.

[stebo0728]

...even though you are allowed to open-carry, you will most likely be arrested for disturbing the peace if you choose to do so.

You sure on that one?

Could be correct, just seems to me like I see a LOT of people open carrying.

Long as you keep your bullet in your shirt pocket, its ok

[themadscientist]

Even though I could open carry in Virginia, I wouldn't. People freak out at the sight of a gun and don't think rationally. While I think it's a knee-jerk emotional response and silly when context is tossed out, I don't mind keeping my weapon out of sight. Besides being capable and prepared to defend yourself, being low key and not drawing attention to ones self is also a good defensive strategy. If I need the gun, I have it, otherwise it's out of sight and out of others' minds.