Serious advice wanted

[dhen]

Those of you who've been following my posts know that my engine was making strange sounds, but I stopped it. Now I have a much more serious problem.

Just for background knowledge, my engine was rebuilt 700 miles ago by a very well regarded machinist who was very old and died 6 months later. It ran great until a coolant leak I didn't catch in time overheated it. I had it looked at by someone else in the same shop who said the bearings looked OK. So I had the head resurfaced. It was making some noise after that, but I fixed that.

Anyway, I was driving it today and I noticed the oil pressure was falling. I engaged the clutch and my oil pressure was 0. So I stopped it and tightened the oil filter adapter. (I have a remote oil filter.)

The oil pressure then got better. I drove it two miles and it was falling again so I had the car towed.

Got it home and started it up. Good oil pressure. Drained the oil and there are metal flecks in there. NOT GOOD.

I'm 99% sure my engine is screwed. I would really like to know WHY this happened, but that might be too much to ask.

Sorry for the long post, here's what I'd love to know. What should I do? I would prefer to rebuild it myself because I'm not rich, but I've never rebuilt an engine before. Is this something that you need a lot of training to do? Which parts should I replace? Will the source of my problems be obvious once I get the engine apart, or do you really have to know what you're doing to tell?

Any constructive advice is welcome. I was pretty depressing to see this.

[themadscientist]

Sounds like you lost pressure because of the loose adapter and the subsequent damage may have tore up the main and/or rod bearings which led to a new source of lost oil pressure.

[float_6969]

I think TMS nailed it. It doesn't take much of an increase in clearance on the rod and main bearings to get a big drop in oil pressure. So if the adapter loosened up and you started to get contact on the bearing surfaces, it would explain your symptoms. Sorry to hear this.

On the up side, the FSM is very thorough. Aside from the actual machine work, I've rebuilt mine twice myself and never had any issues (aside from the machine shop not putting the plugs back in the crank and me not catching it). You will need a piston ring grinder, a set of end gap measurer's (IDK what they're called), and some plastigauge to check the bearing clearances. Your engine is new enough, you shouldn't have to worry about piston to bore clearance unless you get it apart and the cylinder and pistons look torn up.

[dhen]

I actually don't know how loose the adapter was. I pulled on the hoses to tighten it since I was on the road.

Would I need new rings? I'd imagine they would be fine. Do I need the plastigauge if I have an (almost) new crank?

Sorry for the stupid questions. I'm totally new at this.

[mdb4879]

You could also try this. Drop the oil pan and check the bearings and journals. If the journals don't look too bad you could polish them up, put new bearings in, and run it (Idk how that'd work with only half new bearings on the mains since you couldn't get to the other side on the block. I guess it wouldn't hurt since only the bottom ones see and considerable load.) Idk how hard the transmission is to pull in that car, or the motor for that matter if it's easier, but you could pull the transmission, or the motor, and just take the crank out and have it checked. It'd be worth it for $40 to have the peace of mind. Then put new bearings in it and see how it does. This may not be the most popular way of rebuilding, but my stepdad has done it in a crunch and all was well. This way you don't have to take the pistons out and the old rings will be just fine. And you don't even have to pull the head (although if you overheated it you'll want to pull it anyways and check that it's not warped)

[themadscientist]

I was thinking flip it and pull the crank and redo the bearings, but there could be a lot of debris still in his oiling system that will sabotage any rebuild.

[dhen]

I was thinking flip it and pull the crank and redo the bearings, but there could be a lot of debris still in his oiling system that will sabotage any rebuild.

Could I reuse the rings if I did this? Your plan is what I was thinking also. I suppose you could leave the head on, but I should probably inspect it anyways.

There is debris in my oil. I found some on my magnetic oil plug. Is removing this something someone can do themselves or is it better to leave that to the professionals?

PS Do I need a new oil pump?

Thanks,

Darian

[themadscientist]

Well the problem is, while the filter would grab that junk, the first thing the oil hits after getting sucked up from the pan is the pump. You may be able to tear the pump apart, clean it out and inspect it.

I would run a compression check and see if the cylinders are sealing. If they are I would leave the top end alone and just do the bottom end, like when I show a lady a good time.

[boost_boy]

Hmmm, experienced this problem before and the first thing you'd want to do before you go tearing off the head is remove the oil pan and inspect the bearings. if thebearing check-out okay, then repalce the oil pump. There's some good ones and some bad ones out here and I too have come across a brand new bad one. It would have great oil pressure when the engine is cold, but will go down slowly as the engine gets warmer. Luckily, the bottom end was not munched-up nor were the bearings touched.

One other area of concern before you rip the motor apart is oil pressure gauge sending unit or the complete set-up. I don't know which one you are using, but if it's autometer, I would try another brand to confirm. Again, don't pull the motor until you exercised the procerss of elimination. Hope this info proves to be valuable as you are are not alone in your dilemmas, but there is a fix for most of the ones on the CA18DET.

[tommey]

Dont change the bearings without polishing the crank or measuring roundness of rod big ends.
Thats just stupid, even in cases with little knock i often measure them to be oval.

[dhen]

Are DE and DET cranks the same?

[themadscientist]

Yes.
cut that oil filter open and see what you captured. Not everything stuck to that magnet and it will give you some idea of what the pump ate.

[dhen]

Cool. I noticed Rock Auto has new crankshafts w/ bearings for $200. I may go there since mine was messed up. Or maybe I can find one locally.

I'll do that with the oil filter. I'm curious as well.

[dhen]

Thought I'd offer an update:

My oil:



My filter:



Cutting it open got a of metal around, but the picture is from the part farthest from where I cut and the metal is buried in there.

Some scoring on the number 2 cylinder. I can feel it with my fingernail. This block has already been bored out to .040, so I guess it's toast?



Here's the #1 bearing:



I don't know how clear it is in the picture, but there's a pretty deep gauge right in the middle where the oil comes from the crank. My theory was that some metal got in there - hence my noise. The #2 bearing was a little better than #1, but bad. 3, 4, and 5 looked fine.

I had to helicoil a bolt in the head. I thought I was careful, but I guess some shavings got into the oil...

Did I put these bearing caps back correctly? I forgot to pay attention to which side the numbers were on when I took them off. I didn't see anything about it in the manual, but I rebuilt a differential once where that was critical.



Anyway, I have one last question. Since I've got metal lurking in my engine, can I machine shop get this out, or is it better to start with a new engine that may need a rebuild but doesn't have metal floating in it?

[boost_boy]

Looks like you may have installed the bearing caps backwards. It's late and I'm sleepy, so I might be seeing things. You're probably going to need an align bore as well. That engine is toast on the inside. That darkness tells me the engine was dirty. As for removing the metal particles, you can do, but you;re going to have to completely disassemble it and clean it good. Or worst, take it to a machine shop to be hot tanked.

[mdb4879]

Man, that motor got messed up. I had half a piston break (the whole skirt on one half all the way up to the oil control ring groove) in my E16 and it didn't really to anything physical to the motor. But I guess small shavings in the oil that can actually get between tight tolerances would be much worse.

About all I know I can comment on is I'm not sure if the main caps on on the right way from the picture since I don't have a motor half apart to check, but the notches on the caps and the block that line the bearings up always match with each other. So it would be like ,, not like ,' understand? The rods and their caps go the same way.

[themadscientist]

Yeah, that's done. That sucks.

[float_6969]

Sorry man, but that motor is cooked. I do think you have the main caps on backward, but I'm not 100% sure. I remember there are marks on the block that need to be on the same side as the marks on the caps. If you put them on backwards, it would ruin things quickly.

I wouldn't worry much about a line bore though. You'll probably have to get a new block. .040 over is the limit. If you bore it out again, you'll have very thin cylinders, and the engine will probably eat itself again. This is why I only bored mine .020 over. I guess you could try to sleeve it, but I'd be willing to bet it would cost less to pick up another block.

This sucks man. I'm really sorry to see this.

[cbh148]

When you say you can feel the scoring on the cylinder wall with your fingernail, are you talking about all of the scoring (including the red circle in the pic)? Or just the heavy looking long line (yellow arrows pointing at the one in the pic)?



Reason being, I think I remember seeing some light scoring, like in the circle, on mine when I had it apart last, but I don't think I could feel it with my fingernail and I wanna say I looked at someone's rebuild pics and it had the same light lines. And they were all on the intake/exhaust sides of the bores, none on the timingbelt/transmission sides (I'm assuming this is from the lateral push/pull forces induced on the pistons by the crankshaft's rotation).

[dhen]

The area in the red circle feels fine. The yellow arrows area is the area I was talking about.

So if you were me, would you rebuild with a new block or role the dice on a new engine? My concern is that there is more metal in there that I might miss.

[float_6969]

Rebuild with a new block. Make sure you tell the machine shop what happened and that you want all the oil galley plugs removed and the oil lines thoroughly flushed on the crank, rods, and head. A good machine shop will do this as standard practice in part of cleaning the motor, but some don't do it unless you ask.

[mdb4879]

And make sure they reinstall the oil galley plugs as well. Float knows all about this

[dhen]

OK. Do you think they can flush out the oil pump, too, or is that too big of a risk? It has almost no miles on it.

[dhen]

PS This may be a stupid question, but if I need a new block, I want to get it bored out to 83.5 mm rather than my current 84 mm. Can I reuse the wrist pins/locks if I have Wiseco pistons now but go to a different brand? I'm thinking about getting Supertechs.

Thanks,

Darian

[blownhemi]

OK. Do you think they can flush out the oil pump, too, or is that too big of a risk? It has almost no miles on it.

As said before, take it apart, inspect it as per FSM, if anything, ANYTHING at all looks fishy, or out of spec, replace it. I'd be suprised, if it would be OK after this.
If your budget does not depend on that $160, though, just buy a new one, don't take any risks. It's too important a part.

PS This may be a stupid question, but if I need a new block, I want to get it bored out to 83.5 mm rather than my current 84 mm. Can I reuse the wrist pins/locks if I have Wiseco pistons now but go to a different brand? I'm thinking about getting Supertechs.

You'll get new circlips/snap rings and writs pins with a new set of aftermarket pistons, so you don't need to worry about this.

Did I put these bearing caps back correctly? I forgot to pay attention to which side the numbers were on when I took them off. I didn't see anything about it in the manual, but I rebuilt a differential once where that was critical.

My vote is on backwards, as well. If I remember corectly, mine even had arrows on them. Or at least one of them.

Too bad about this whole thing, wish you the best of luck!

[float_6969]

Everything he said^ (free post for me, LOL)

[dhen]

More carnage:

The tops of the pistons look fine.



But the sides are another story. I think this explains my knock...















Are these pistons still useable? As I said, the tops are fine.

Oddly enough, my crank doesn't look too bad:

[blownhemi]

I wouldn't risk using those pistons. There seems to be flakes missing from the side of one, they could scratch your cylinder walls in no time.


On another note, I'm glad now I went with CPs. Those Wiseco's are skinny, there's barely any material in them.

[mdb4879]

I'd rather have the tops messed up than the skirts. If it were the tops and there were enough material it could be ground out and polished up, but with the skirts messed up you'll have piston-to-cylinder clearance issues and will forever hear a slapping sound and will eventually have some sort of failure. Regardless, It looks like you need some new pistons, but the problem is that if you get anything else, and even new Wiseco pistons may have this problem, the piston-to-cylinder clearance (actual and the spec) will be different. If the pistons are slightly too large then it's OK, you can have it bored. But if they're too small you're screwed since you can't get an oversize. I think you'll need a new block.

[dhen]

Yeah, my machine shop's been pretty cool about this. I was honest about the the fact that the metal flakes might have been my fault, and they're been really cool about the labor to check and clean the head.

Anyway, the guy who now runs the shop (the son) said the pistons were useless. I guess I could use them as a ashtrays, but I quit smoking years ago...

I found something weird on one of the hydraulic lifters. It seems that a washer perfectly wedged itself into one of them. I guess that was my noise, and it's obviously not good, but could this have caused the failure?



If you notice, the washer has gotten a little blue as well - i.e. hot.

Here's a normal one for comparison:



Any thoughts are welcome.

Thanks.