sds engine mangement

[rico05]

I am so f&*king sick of fighting with the retarded 8bit ECCS. ANY freaking little things trips it and goes into pansy mode. And I hate coil packs. They get too hot and old and they interimttently fire. Dude, if you don't get that SDS, seriously tell us. I am damn near willing to go freaking broke getting away from the Nissan "brain".

On the same topic:Anyone have experience with the AEM EMS? Reading on AEMs site, it sounds like a killer system. They just realeased a universal setup that would be hella sweet.

http://www.aempower.com/product_ems.asp

[81na ZX]

I am so f&*king sick of fighting with the retarded 8bit ECCS.

Atleast you didn't try to mess with a L28 ecu circa 1975

[Turbogixxer]

Anyone have experience with the AEM EMS? Reading on AEMs site, it sounds like a killer system. They just realeased a universal setup that would be hella sweet.

AEM is a very powerful system. If you get it, and you have a good tuner, you will love it.

[boost_boy]

There is no "trickery". It is true that Max. Brake Torque (MBT) is harder to find with the higher compression you have. With a skilled tuner, it should be no problem (depending usage of the car).

{Dee:: I totally disagree with you here. I guess you'll take a stock motor per say a CA18DET and shove the DE's pistons and go run the car on 93 octane @15 degrees of timing @ say 12psi and it'll be just fine. Or better yet, take a CA18DET powered car, remove it's turbo compter and add an aspirated computer at say 13psi and 15 degrees of timing, run the car at W.O.T. or at least give it a good thrashing and let us know the outcome.

Maybe you misinterpreted what I meant by trickery, but the computer would have to programed to retard at certain points in order to avoid detonation because of the high chamber pressures. I'm no physics guru, but I do know what it takes to destroy an engine and high compression pistons with a turbocharged set-up is not what most of the experts recommend. In fact, maybe that's why nissan and so many others never introduced turbocharged motors with high compression pistons.

And retarding your stock computer at base idle to attempt to prevent detonation because of the high compression pistons is defeating the purpose in my honest mechanical/electrical opinion. One of our mods tried it before. Find out which one and ask him what it was like.

Any motor is a time bomb with a uneducated user. Timing have a BIG role in cyl. pressure. {Dee}::This comment alone supports the fact that high compression and turbocharging are a deadly mix.

Incorrect. Higher compression will make more power and increase spool of the turbo (within reason). But, you are right about a street car. The lower compression and less timing the motor will have lower cyl. pressure (EGT). Rule of thumb, for about every one full point of compression you raise it, you will see 5-15whp (from the compression alone). As you can see, it is not crazy amount of HP.

Timing has a lot to do with bore and VE. Remember, the flame has to travel cross the bore. The larger the bore, the more advanced it has to be.

[8ggalant]

Dude, if you don't get that SDS, seriously tell us. I am damn near willing to go freaking broke getting away from the Nissan "brain".

ill know w/ in the next week if im getting it..if not...ill get you guys his number

[Turbogixxer]

{Dee:: I totally disagree with you here. I guess you'll take a stock motor per say a CA18DET and shove the DE's pistons and go run the car on 93 octane @15 degrees of timing @ say 12psi and it'll be just fine. Or better yet, take a CA18DET powered car, remove it's turbo compter and add an aspirated computer at say 13psi and 15 degrees of timing, run the car at W.O.T. or at least give it a good thrashing and let us know the outcome.

Maybe you misinterpreted what I meant by trickery, but the computer would have to programed to retard at certain points in order to avoid detonation because of the high chamber pressures. I'm no physics guru, but I do know what it takes to destroy an engine and high compression pistons with a turbocharged set-up is not what most of the experts recommend. In fact, maybe that's why nissan and so many others never introduced turbocharged motors with high compression pistons.

And retarding your stock computer at base idle to attempt to prevent detonation because of the high compression pistons is defeating the purpose in my honest mechanical/electrical opinion. One of our mods tried it before. Find out which one and ask him what it was like.

You miss the Max. Brake Torque part? Like I said before, you have to find MBT which you have to find by adjusting the igntion maps (not running a stock NA ECU on a turbo motor, not adjusting the base timing). I will explain MBT to you.

"If the end of the combustion process is progressively delayed by retarding the spark timing, the peak cylinder pressure occurs later in the expansion/power stroke and is reduced in magnitude. These changes reduce the expansion stroke work transfer from the cylinder gases to the piston. The optimum timing which gives the maximum brake torque, called maximum brake torque, or MBT occurs when the magnitudes of these two opposing trends just offset each other. The optimum spark timing will depend on the rate of the flame development and propagation, and the length of the flame travel path across the combustion chamber. "

{Dee}::This comment alone supports the fact that high compression and turbocharging are a deadly mix.

How does it? Exlpain what knock, pre-igntion are and how timing has a role in cyl. pressure and you will find why you are wrong. Timing is a big factor, but there are more factors. When I talk about high compression, I mean 9-10.5:1 street motor, 10-12:1 race.

Sorry if I sound like an ***, I do not mean too.

[boost_boy]

You miss the Max. Brake Torque part? Like I said before, you have to find MBT which you have to find by adjusting the igntion maps (not running a stock NA ECU on a turbo motor, not adjusting the base timing). I will explain MBT to you.

"If the end of the combustion process is progressively delayed by retarding the spark timing, the peak cylinder pressure occurs later in the expansion/power stroke and is reduced in magnitude. These changes reduce the expansion stroke work transfer from the cylinder gases to the piston. The optimum timing which gives the maximum brake torque, called maximum brake torque, or MBT occurs when the magnitudes of these two opposing trends just offset each other. The optimum spark timing will depend on the rate of the flame development and propagation, and the length of the flame travel path across the combustion chamber. "

How does it? Exlpain what knock, pre-igntion are and how timing has a role in cyl. pressure and you will find why you are wrong. Timing is a big factor, but there are more factors. When I talk about high compression, I mean 9-10.5:1 street motor, 10-12:1 race.

Sorry if I sound like an ***, I do not mean too.

To be honest with you, it's not like you sound like an ***, but more of an physics student or something. If you're not reading this stuff you're posting from a book or web site, then I commend you on not wasting someone's money spent on you in college. But the real issue here is the fact that these guys want to know what works and what don't work for this particular motor. You can babble on about the maximum brake torque and theories about the way gases expand, peak cylinder pressures, etc,etc, but I'm very sure that most of the guys and girls here want to here it from experience. And when I posted about NA ecus, retarding timing, etc, etc, it was because these things are happening in real time. Been there and done that would be the phrase. Though complex technical theories sound intriguing, hands-on experience is what's being proven here. And I still say that no one on this forum should be experimenting with high compression pistons in the CA period because it makes no sense and the gains aren't worth losses that one will soon experience.

I'm not trying to be an @$$ either, but I like to feed my audience something real. Theories and hypothesis are better yet left up to the engineers and I for one am no engineer. And if you are, good for you! too many people reading too much stuff from websites and feeding to forums as if it came from their own brain-housing groups. I have spoken on the matter and am done with. Stay away from high compression.

Dee

[Turbogixxer]

First things first. I am sorry if I upset you. I am not trying to look down at you or look better then you. You learn by showing proof to your thinkings. I try not to have a closed mind and nor should anyone have one. Like I said, I am not here to pick on you or anyone else.

You can babble on about the maximum brake torque and theories about the way gases expand, peak cylinder pressures, etc,etc, but I'm very sure that most of the guys and girls here want to here it from experience.e

I did not speak in theory in anything I posted, nor did I copy and paste from a book. The quote was from a good friend that is a engineer and tunes a lot of cars everyday. I speak from expereince. To understand what is going on in your engine when it is getting tuned, you will make you be able to tune the car better. I have pics of inside the cyl to prove it right if you want to see them.

too many people reading too much stuff from websites and feeding to forums as if it came from their own brain-housing groups.

This not not from websites or forums. In fact, the author I like the best helped design nissans motors that you guys love. These people have experience in engine dynamics.

Like I said before, sorry if I came off bad. It is a learning experience for everyone (me too). Brain storming on ideas will always help. I hope you understand.

Knowledge is power, the more you have, the better off you are.

[themadscientist]

Atleast you didn't try to mess with a L28 ecu circa 1975

For real, try tweaking the tension spring on an 84' L20ET AFM by ear and reading plugs with no guages. We didn't have piggybacks back in the day just Rebics and ROM tuning at $300 a shot with no guarantee the shop knew what the hell they were doing.

[float_6969]

OK, I've got to jump in on the high compression turbo debate. Normally, this is a conversation that I would stay away from, just because of the speculation part of it. But this one directly affects me. I spent MANY hours doing A LOT of research, before I decided on how to build my motor. Ultimately, I raised the compression from 8.5:1 to 9.5:1 and increased the bore by .5mm. The reason I decided to do this was because I knew I could limit the amount of boost that I would put through the motor. Dee’s right, high boost, and high compression, isn’t a good way to make a lot of horsepower. But I have said it before and I'll say it again, you can do just about ANYTHING to a motor, as long as you have the right fuel and the tuning is done correctly. Because of this, one of my first purchases was a standalone. I believe that a high compression CA18DET is a possibility and within the next month and a half, it should become a reality. The only trick to doing this is simply being able to control the amount of retard as boost comes on. Dee, I have a great deal of respect for you and your opinions. They come from experience, and there is not better teacher. I know exactly which member you are talking about trying the high compression setup and failing with it. But you and I also know that he was using CAST CA18DE pistons, and running a completely stock ECU at stock base timing. I firmly believe that with some tuning, this can be achieved with good results. I hope to prove this true in the near future. But something to keep in mind is that peak horsepower or torque, are NOT my main concerns, nor am I greatly concerned about the actual horsepower or torque that my motor is able to create. My greatest concern was throttle response and a wide power band. I felt that this was best accomplished by "filling in" the bottom end of the CA's power band with High Compression, and carrying it through with my modified S14 Turbo. I never have any intention of using any larger turbo at any point. (Maybe an S15, but that isn't really much of a difference) As Dee has said on MULITPLE occasions, big power is more easily achieved with a turbo outside of the T25 series turbine housings, and I couldn't agree more. If I wanted 300hp+, then I would have left the compression alone, built a T3 equal length manifold, and gone that route. I also wouldn't be converting to a liquid to air setup to shorten my intercooler piping as much as possible to increase throttle response. I've done a lot of research and I'm confident that I'll achieve the results that I've set after. As Dee has said before, People on this board want to see results, and I intend to give them results, good or bad. We'll see if you can tune a high compression CA18DET to run on the streets once and for all…

[boost_boy]

OK, I've got to jump in on the high compression turbo debate. Normally, this is a conversation that I would stay away from, just because of the speculation part of it. But this one directly affects me. I spent MANY hours doing A LOT of research, before I decided on how to build my motor. Ultimately, I raised the compression from 8.5:1 to 9.5:1 and increased the bore by .5mm. The reason I decided to do this was because I knew I could limit the amount of boost that I would put through the motor. Dee’s right, high boost, and high compression, isn’t a good way to make a lot of horsepower. But I have said it before and I'll say it again, you can do just about ANYTHING to a motor, as long as you have the right fuel and the tuning is done correctly. Because of this, one of my first purchases was a standalone. I believe that a high compression CA18DET is a possibility and within the next month and a half, it should become a reality. The only trick to doing this is simply being able to control the amount of retard as boost comes on. Dee, I have a great deal of respect for you and your opinions. They come from experience, and there is not better teacher. I know exactly which member you are talking about trying the high compression setup and failing with it. But you and I also know that he was using CAST CA18DE pistons, and running a completely stock ECU at stock base timing. I firmly believe that with some tuning, this can be achieved with good results. I hope to prove this true in the near future. But something to keep in mind is that peak horsepower or torque, are NOT my main concerns, nor am I greatly concerned about the actual horsepower or torque that my motor is able to create. My greatest concern was throttle response and a wide power band. I felt that this was best accomplished by "filling in" the bottom end of the CA's power band with High Compression, and carrying it through with my modified S14 Turbo. I never have any intention of using any larger turbo at any point. (Maybe an S15, but that isn't really much of a difference) As Dee has said on MULITPLE occasions, big power is more easily achieved with a turbo outside of the T25 series turbine housings, and I couldn't agree more. If I wanted 300hp+, then I would have left the compression alone, built a T3 equal length manifold, and gone that route. I also wouldn't be converting to a liquid to air setup to shorten my intercooler piping as much as possible to increase throttle response. I've done a lot of research and I'm confident that I'll achieve the results that I've set after. As Dee has said before, People on this board want to see results, and I intend to give them results, good or bad. We'll see if you can tune a high compression CA18DET to run on the streets once and for all…

I actually look forward to someone doing this. I know that it is not impossible to do, but tuning is the trick here and knowing the motor's characteristics helps a great deal as well. Unless you're one hell of a ROM tuner that has ventured down this path before or are prepared to dedicate some time into tuning for raised base compression, the simple-minded booster that's on a low budget need not apply. I can't wait till you pull this off Ryan . I could never try it because i've dumped waaaaaaaayyyy too much money into motors to put one of them at risk. I would have to change too many set parameters that I've spent much money and time trying to establish.

Dee

[boost_boy]

First things first. I am sorry if I upset you. I am not trying to look down at you or look better then you. You learn by showing proof to your thinkings. I try not to have a closed mind and nor should anyone have one. Like I said, I am not here to pick on you or anyone else.

I did not speak in theory in anything I posted, nor did I copy and paste from a book. The quote was from a good friend that is a engineer and tunes a lot of cars everyday. I speak from expereince. To understand what is going on in your engine when it is getting tuned, you will make you be able to tune the car better. I have pics of inside the cyl to prove it right if you want to see them.

This not not from websites or forums. In fact, the author I like the best helped design nissans motors that you guys love. These people have experience in engine dynamics.

Like I said before, sorry if I came off bad. It is a learning experience for everyone (me too). Brain storming on ideas will always help. I hope you understand.

Knowledge is power, the more you have, the better off you are.

Dude, I want you to realize one thing, when it comes to someone's opinions or comments about my cars, my engines and my abilities, I don't get upset. It's healthy conversation and as one of the respected members on this forum and in the performance community, it would be a sad day if I showed such an emotion. You are well within your boundaries to say whatever you want and we have the choice to either comment or let it go. The beauty of it is that I do what works for me and mine. And if members care to chose your theories or even car to take heed to them, they are entitled to use whatever information they like because it's their motor/their money.

Dee

[ca18datsun510]

First things first. I am sorry if I upset you. I am not trying to look down at you or look better then you. You learn by showing proof to your thinkings. I try not to have a closed mind and nor should anyone have one. Like I said, I am not here to pick on you or anyone else.

I did not speak in theory in anything I posted, nor did I copy and paste from a book. The quote was from a good friend that is a engineer and tunes a lot of cars everyday. I speak from expereince. To understand what is going on in your engine when it is getting tuned, you will make you be able to tune the car better. I have pics of inside the cyl to prove it right if you want to see them.

This not not from websites or forums. In fact, the author I like the best helped design nissans motors that you guys love. These people have experience in engine dynamics.

Like I said before, sorry if I came off bad. It is a learning experience for everyone (me too). Brain storming on ideas will always help. I hope you understand.

Knowledge is power, the more you have, the better off you are.

wow. you are really anoying. is it just me? i cant even stomach the crap you type out. im not saying you are wrong, just you have a horrible way of putting things.

for the most part everyone on here is doing this for hobby/self expression/however you want to put it.

you sound like the annoying know it all in class who reminds the teacher about homework.

[Turbogixxer]

wow. you are really anoying. is it just me? i cant even stomach the crap you type out. im not saying you are wrong, just you have a horrible way of putting things.

you sound like the annoying know it all in class who reminds the teacher about homework.

Nice try at e-thugging. So bad you have to say personal attacks on people over the internet.

ca18datsun510Bolt-on Turbo(100%)

Age 22

Jesus, your 22? Grow up.

To Boost_boy: Honsetly, I do not care anymore. Do what ever you want.

float_6969, great to see you doing that. I never stated that you can not make good power on lower compression, infact, it is safer. BUT, you can do it with higher compression with no problems. Tuning is a big factor in this. I hope you make the power goals you want. What standalone did you go with?

[boost_boy]

Nice try at e-thugging. So bad you have to say personal attacks on people over the internet.

ca18datsun510Bolt-on Turbo(100%)

Age 22

Jesus, your 22? Grow up.

To Boost_boy: Honsetly, I do not care anymore. Do what ever you want.

float_6969, great to see you doing that. I never stated that you can not make good power on lower compression, infact, it is safer. BUT, you can do it with higher compression with no problems. Tuning is a big factor in this. I hope you make the power goals you want. What standalone did you go with?

Answer me this Turbogixxer, what does age have to do with this discussion? He spoke his mind just as you have. And if he you feel his comment was ignorant by the least, the best thing you could have done was simply (and like i said in a previous post) let it go.

And the fact that you not caring what I do anymore makes me say I didn't think you cared in the 1st place. I don't know you and you don't know me, so let's just stick to the topic and enjoy healthy conversation. Seems to me like you're the one who's a bit upset. Breathe, stretch, shake, let it go!

Dee

[sdtouge]

Breathe, stretch, shake, let it go!

nice...

[Turbogixxer]

Answer me this Turbogixxer, what does age have to do with this discussion? He spoke his mind just as you have. And if he you feel his comment was ignorant by the least, the best thing you could have done was simply (and like i said in a previous post) let it go.

I am sorry, attacks on the personal side (name calling, egos, etc) are uncalled for. He could have said what he wanted to say without it. I try not bring egos into it. He did. He knows nothing about me, but he wanted to show how much of a tough guy he is. I quoted his age because I would think a person of his age would know better, I guess not.

Honsetly, I know he is going to come back and say something. I could care less.

And the fact that you not caring what I do anymore makes me say I didn't think you cared in the 1st place. I don't know you and you don't know me, so let's just stick to the topic and enjoy healthy conversation. Seems to me like you're the one who's a bit upset. Breathe, stretch, shake, let it go!

No, I can't make you listen to me. You showed that but not even taking in to account what I said. You struck to your "I know from experience". That is great. You dismissed my ways, so why should I say more? Honsetly, I love to teach what I know, but I will not teach to deaf ears. I have a lot to say, but I am not typing it for myself.

I am not mad or will get mad. It is the internet, not real life. If you think what I have to say is wrong, then prove it.

[droopy_map]

Am i in the right forum here???Yo!!! MY peeps.............keep focused - we talk about cars in this forum KOOL?

I love Dee's posts and opinions just like everyone's, and i even have a technical friend just like Turbogixxer, so i appreciate his perspective as well. Please man, dont ever be afraid to come with your opinions and ideas - there's always someone reading and considering everything(like me)

[8ggalant]

nice...

ditto lmao

[radmar1]

where could i get the sds from, i am having a hard time finding it

[iliketocrash]

so much drama. maybe we can sell this to daytime television. it would be a nice switch from these reality tv shows. :-)

[themadscientist]

where could i get the sds from, i am having a hard time finding it

did'nt try to hard did ya? http://www.sdsefi.com/

[themadscientist]

I'm not going to take a side on the compression -vs- boost discussion or on who's panties are in a bunch. I like to soak up info provided by all parties and assimilate what rings correctly in my mind, I suggest everyone do the same. Some of the posters in this thread are definately wiser than I, I don't normally do extensive tuning as I have limited funds and a bad habit of spreading myself thin with multiple projects. A few things I will chime in on that have kept me from walking home;

Get guages, good quality guages and use them, you have to know what's going on in there in real time.

Go slowly and only change one thing at a time. Bold dope changes and anarchaic parameter putches will get you lost and increases the chances of a BOOM situation.

Three basic elements are needed; fuel, air and spark. You can't increase one with out addressing the other two.

Study, read as much as you can from as many different sources as possible. No one person has all the answers and don't be afraid to explore new ways of doing things as long as the aforementioned items are being taken care of.

Oh yeah, and never beleive me when I say "it's just a stock *insert car name*"

[radmar1]

do you need to use an maf with these stand alone systems, and which ones are the more practicle to use, there are so many different types

[rico05]

No MAF needed for 99% of true standalones. Piggy backs or plug and play untis usually require a MAF equipped car to keep the MAF. There are exceptions: many manufacturers provide the option of MAP sensor inputs and many other makers demand a switch to MAP. MAFs suck. Yet another reason I want a stand alone. The Power FC can be had in D-Jetro format (MAP used to calculate intake air charge density) and that allows you to get rid of the MAF, but I have never actually seen a CA18 DJ PFC.

Great debate on HC vs. LC slugs. I'm not at the point where I am going to build my motor still (mabye in a year or so) so all of this discussion is great info! I think an edited Sticky with the most pertinent posts to be made. But cut all the crap out. Too much bitching for me to read through when I actually need the info...

I can't wait to see pricing on a EMS. IIRC SGP in Houston works with the EMS, so I bet we could tune it on their dyno. Hmmmmmm. They build 600+rwhp VGs, so I bet they could milk some sauce from my CA

[droopy_map]

Ok! It really does look simple, guess that's why it has its name Simple Digital System(SDS).

Two questions tho, one in particluar for Dee - is that the same unit that you used(or similar)?

Second, which one would be best to select in particular - the D, E, or F?

[81na ZX]

The only one you can use with the OEM ignition is the 4F. And thats the best way to go.

The other option is the 4D - and let the stock ECU control timing

[boost_boy]

The only one you can use with the OEM ignition is the 4F. And thats the best way to go.

The other option is the 4D - and let the stock ECU control timing

I see from the little icon, you know that's a no-no (smart man)

Dee

[droopy_map]

Thanks man - i appreciate that. As you can see i'm looking for the simpliest and most effective means of gaining reliable power. So when i can afford it, i'll get that one.

[float_6969]

Ok, this is off topic, but I'm tired of the MAFS bashing. The only possible downside to a MAFS setup is the potential reduction in flow. That can simply be alleviated by upgrading to a larger, higher flowing MAFS. When it comes right down to it, the information that you need to know so that you can inject the correct amount of fuel is the quantity (aka MASS) of air entering the motor. When using a MAP system, you are taking the temperature and pressure of the air entering the manifold, using a table of calcuations, and coming up with the amount of air that way. From a programming standpoint, that is a lot simpler to do, and ofcourse, it poses no restriction to the flow of air. The reason that most OEM air metering systems are MAFS, is because it's more accurate. They are less concerned about horsepower and more concerned about accuracy. The more accuratly you can read the amount of air entering the motor, the more reliable the system is. I like MAFS systems and that is part of the reason that I stuck to the PFC. And to be completely honest, with the computing power that is available today, the differences between the two are probabally minimal, and the potental restriction that the MAFS poses to the air flow can be a deturant. But I seriously doubt that a Z32 or Cobra MAFS poses much more restriction than an intercooler does for the horsepower levels that we are working with. Just my $.02 [/soapbox]