S13 Red Top Vs. S13 Black Top - The differences

For the RWD SR20DET cars! Sponsored by Wiring Specialties.
User avatar
Onizuka
Posts: 8907
Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2002 5:24 pm
Car: 91 coupe w/s13 SR20DET 89 hatch w/s14 SR20DE

Post

There always seems to be confusion as to what a “black top” SR20DET really is, and what makes it different from the “red top” SR20DET. Here are a few pointers so you can impress your friends with how much you know about Nissan motors.

First, how to tell the differences between s13 “red tops”, s13 “black tops” and s14/s15 “notch tops” visually:



Years- S13 red tops: 91-94 S13 black tops: Late 94-98 S14 notch tops: 95-98 S15 notch tops: 99-01

Alas, the changes/advantages of the s13 Blacktop:*

-Newer -Usually lower mileage -Usually about $500 more expensive (because its newer) -Minor ECU changes 96-98 (interchangeable with all s13 ECU’s) -Minor wire harness changes -Larger Oxygen Sensor (still narrow band, no performance gain)

There seems to be a misconception that S13 black tops have Variable Valve Timing and Garrett T28 Turbochargers, this is simply a confusion with the S14 notch top motor (also call black tops by some) and is not true.

If you know of any other differences between the S13 Red Top and S13 Black top, please post here and let me know!


dj_lennon_franz
Posts: 496
Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2002 2:24 pm
Car: 1992 240sx

Post

i also wanna add something...there is a minor cosmetic difference in the S13 redtops...the 90.5-92 motors were a bit different around the head of the motor between the cams (look between the half moon seals on yer cams...theyre VERY hard not to see lol)...the early SRs DO NOT have the heat sink fins that the later motors do...this was just added by nissan to help disapate the heat caused at the end of the head a lil better...the 93-99 S13 redtops/blacktops all have the fin design...so hey hey if u have the fins u have a newer redtop =)

88-90.5-CA18det (S13 and 180sx T25 turbo 182hp 180tq 7psi)

90.5-94.5-SR20det Redtop (S13 silvia and 180sx T25 turbo 210hp 207tq 7psi)

94.5-96-SR20det Blacktop (SilEighty NISMO cams T28 turbo 242hp 234tq 10psi only 400 ever made)

95-99-SR20det Blacktop (180sx T25 turbo 210hp 207 tq 7psi)

95-98-SR20det Notchtop (S14 blacktop T28 turbo VVT intake cam 232hp 224tq 7psi)

99-02-SR20det Notchtop (S15 blacktop T28 turbo VVT intake & exhaust 252hp 243tq 10psi)

just so its a lil more specific

stiergott
Posts: 168
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2004 8:16 pm
Car: 240

Post

this is something i have found out and i paid for it. if you plan on upgrading the cams in your sr its more cost effective to buy an s13 black top than it is to get the s14 or s15 motor. when i pulled the cams on my s14 motor i had to disable the VVT to run the tomei cams. just a thought

Hellion240sx
Posts: 793
Joined: Mon May 12, 2003 6:30 am
Car: 1992 240sx se
Contact:

Post

just wondering, you had a black top for the above suggestion, but is it the same for the red top????

User avatar
Hijacker
Posts: 15759
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 4:57 am
Car: '92 240sx Convertible
'94 F-150
Location: Fredericksburg, VA

Post

red top and black top are the same save for the color of their valve cover. An S13 SR is an S13 SR.

User avatar
skylndrftr
Posts: 1909
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:40 am
Car: 07 Versa S / 2010 Ariel Atom (pending...)

Post

Does anybody make reground/reprofiled VVT cams?

Nismo_Freak
Posts: 11665
Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2002 10:42 pm
Car: 89 240SX

Post

Tomei's 256 duration cam allow you to retain the VVT.

User avatar
Dori Dori
Posts: 2256
Joined: Fri Nov 15, 2002 4:46 am
Car: Cars of course

Post

tenkawa_akito wrote:red top and black top are the same save for the color of their valve cover. An S13 SR is an S13 SR.
That's not true at all. S13 Blacktops have 54c pistons and oil squirters (the ones found in GTiR, S14, and S15 sr's). The block casting is different too. I'm still trying to figure out if it has 54c rockers...i should be able to confirm that soon.

User avatar
Onizuka
Posts: 8907
Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2002 5:24 pm
Car: 91 coupe w/s13 SR20DET 89 hatch w/s14 SR20DE

Post

After you find all that out it would be great if you could explane the difference and advantages in detail in this thread.

User avatar
Jala47
Posts: 179
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 5:40 pm
Car: 1999 Green Nissan Altima GXE

Post

stiergott wrote:this is something i have found out and i paid for it. if you plan on upgrading the cams in your sr its more cost effective to buy an s13 black top than it is to get the s14 or s15 motor. when i pulled the cams on my s14 motor i had to disable the VVT to run the tomei cams. just a thought
I thought it was only the S14 with the VVT?... or well that's what I read in a car Mag

User avatar
Dori Dori
Posts: 2256
Joined: Fri Nov 15, 2002 4:46 am
Car: Cars of course

Post

J-Spec Tuner wrote:After you find all that out it would be great if you could explane the difference and advantages in detail in this thread.
The pistons might be stronger (general consensus says yay), and they have better oil cooling channels. The oil squirters are supposed to have a better spray pattern and angle, but nobody's gotten the pattern tested. I just found out that if you have the ribbed casting Red Top...little fins on the front of the head (supposedly rare), they have the same longblock as the black top s13 motors.


hondaeater
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2002 2:41 pm
Car: CARS!!!!
Contact:

Post

I have a S13 blacktop but my motor doesnt have any fins on the front of the head.did the early model blacktops not come with the fins?

User avatar
Dori Dori
Posts: 2256
Joined: Fri Nov 15, 2002 4:46 am
Car: Cars of course

Post

They all should...they're very little fins...like ribbing.

User avatar
nismofly
Posts: 13665
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 3:16 pm
Car: 89 S13 Hatch

Post

Jala47 wrote:I thought it was only the S14 with the VVT?... or well that's what I read in a car Mag
which mag was it?

hondaeater
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2002 2:41 pm
Car: CARS!!!!
Contact:

Post

i know exactly what the fins look like on the head. My blacktop has no fins on the head, its all smooth. I asked the supplier i got the motor from and he said that early model blacktops had no fins.

can someone confirm this?

User avatar
Dori Dori
Posts: 2256
Joined: Fri Nov 15, 2002 4:46 am
Car: Cars of course

Post

hondaeater wrote:i know exactly what the fins look like on the head. My blacktop has no fins on the head, its all smooth. I asked the supplier i got the motor from and he said that early model blacktops had no fins.

can someone confirm this?
Sounds like an earlier redtop with a blacktop valve cover to me. I can't confirm this though. Start a thread in Freshalloy...they have all kinds of 'useless' information. I bet they'll be able to answer your question.

User avatar
got2b240
Posts: 475
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:50 am
Car: 91' RPS13 = GT28R, 525cc, Z32 Mafs & SAFC, Blitz EXST & FMIC, Silvia VLSD
Contact:

Post

sweet! I have the finned redtop motor. That verry intresting to hear about the difference in pistons and oil squirter angles. I hope that its true that my block will sustain more pressure than a regular old style redtop. Last week i thought i had a blacktop motor with a red valve cover because i heard only blacktops have fins, but looking at this thread highly enlightened me. Thanks for the posts guys.

bump for enlightenment!

User avatar
Dori Dori
Posts: 2256
Joined: Fri Nov 15, 2002 4:46 am
Car: Cars of course

Post

You don't have to bump it! It's a sticky!!

User avatar
Jala47
Posts: 179
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 5:40 pm
Car: 1999 Green Nissan Altima GXE

Post

nismofly wrote:
which mag was it?
Super Street Mag

User avatar
nismofly
Posts: 13665
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 3:16 pm
Car: 89 S13 Hatch

Post

well super street just sucks at life, and theyre wrong to boot

User avatar
Jala47
Posts: 179
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 5:40 pm
Car: 1999 Green Nissan Altima GXE

Post

Before I make a thread I'd figure I'd post here first.

I hear that once you add alot of HP and Torque to the S15 6spd Tranny that it isn't any good anymore?

Now is there anything that can be done about this? Like a Clutch, Cam Gears, Camshafts, Lightened Flywheel

User avatar
nismofly
Posts: 13665
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 3:16 pm
Car: 89 S13 Hatch

Post

supposedly its true, ive seen discussion about it before on here, but it depends on how much you will be doing to the engine, from what ive heard it will go quite a while before it becomes a problem.

User avatar
Jala47
Posts: 179
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 5:40 pm
Car: 1999 Green Nissan Altima GXE

Post

Hmmm yeah... I'm only wondering because if I were to buy an SR I'd like that one... but not if the tranny's going to crap out on me.

But on the other hand I guess I could always buy an S13 Blacktop and use the extra money on upgrading the engine... soo i'm just stuck trying to figure this all out.

User avatar
JustinStrife
Posts: 5120
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2003 10:13 pm
Car: '99 FRC. 402, Vortech T-Trim @ 12psi = 706rwhp/621rwtq
Contact:

Post

It's a lie about the S15 tranny being weak. It isn't. A rumor spread by superstreet or one of those magazines.

User avatar
Jala47
Posts: 179
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 5:40 pm
Car: 1999 Green Nissan Altima GXE

Post

anyone have pics they can post of the SR VIN numbers?

User avatar
SpeedRacer1
Posts: 3144
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2002 7:44 pm
Car: 1990 240SX, G35

Post

Jala47 wrote:anyone have pics they can post of the SR VIN numbers?
What do you need this info for?


johnyQ
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:32 pm

Post

dj_lennon_franz wrote:88-90.5-CA18det (S13 and 180sx T25 turbo 182hp 180tq 7psi)

90.5-94.5-SR20det Redtop (S13 silvia and 180sx T25 turbo 210hp 207tq 7psi)

94.5-96-SR20det Blacktop (SilEighty NISMO cams T28 turbo 242hp 234tq 10psi only 400 ever made)

95-99-SR20det Blacktop (180sx T25 turbo 210hp 207 tq 7psi)

95-98-SR20det Notchtop (S14 blacktop T28 turbo VVT intake cam 232hp 224tq 7psi)

99-02-SR20det Notchtop (S15 blacktop T28 turbo VVT intake & exhaust 252hp 243tq 10psi)

just so its a lil more specific
Is there a way to tell the year of your motor? I just bought a car that the guy listed as having a 94 s13 blacktop with a t28 which came with it.

According to your timeline, that doesn't really fit into anything. It does have fins on the front, so according to others in this thread its probably not an 'early blacktop'. Any clues?

User avatar
JustinStrife
Posts: 5120
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2003 10:13 pm
Car: '99 FRC. 402, Vortech T-Trim @ 12psi = 706rwhp/621rwtq
Contact:

Post

Maybe he upgraded the turbo?

johnyQ
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:32 pm

Post

unless this motor is 1 in a million and happens to be the 94.5-96 special edition blacktop, then yes the turbo was upgraded at some point.

My main question is how do I tell what year it is, as either he is wrong in thinking its a 94 or that list above is incorrect (or its a very rare version... my strong suspision is its not a 94).


User avatar
SpeedRacer1
Posts: 3144
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2002 7:44 pm
Car: 1990 240SX, G35

Post

johnyQ wrote:
Is there a way to tell the year of your motor? I just bought a car that the guy listed as having a 94 s13 blacktop with a t28 which came with it.

According to your timeline, that doesn't really fit into anything. It does have fins on the front, so according to others in this thread its probably not an 'early blacktop'. Any clues?
http://www.nicoclub.com/zerothread?id=88720

Here is a more accurate list of the dates of the SR20DET model changes:PS13 (Silvia) RPS13 (180SX) SR20DET Redtop Jan 91-Jan 94 RPS13 (180SX) SR20DET Blacktop Jan 94-Aug 96RPS13 (180SX) SR20DET Blacktop Aug 96-May 97


Return to “SR20DET Forum (rear-drive)”