Road rage and guns

[srellim234]

Again, you're going after the decent person who tries to obey the law. Put in that technology, which sounds good, and you will still open up a huge black market in illegal weaapons from overseas. Heck, we can't stop truckloads of human beings from entering the country illegally (not to mention large shipments of contraband drugs); what makes you think they won't do the same with illegal guns from foreign manufacturers?

Enforcement of existing laws, with heavier penalties for gun use by criminals, plus education are the key.

[Jager]

handguns are heavily regulated (more then cars by far) state laws with alot less tolerance for screw ups and that the state and feds go to great lengths to ensure as much as possible the legal sale of guns is controlled, and regulated, guns have back trails much greater then car manufactures are required to do. (ever seen a car dealer be required to hold 20 years of paperwork?) and any gun can be traced from manufacture to distributor, to store to purchaser, (the BATF requires stores to help in traces part of the FFL) and I personally have a mark in my record that I have a CCW that the police can ask me about any time they pull me over. there are rules in place that I have to follow, if i screw up once i lose my gun forever.

so as far as i can tell and to be fair, a privilege we have is far easier and less controlled to obtain then a right we are supposed to be able to exercise.

thats rather sad. understandable somewhat as controlling access to guns is a necessity, not everyone gets to exercise their right as they have a reason they are disqualified. but still sad.

technology transponders etc fail because electronics are fragile, guns are under extreme stress and quite frankly a transponder is as easy to steal as a gun. what if your gun was transponder driven and the manufacturer was required by a law to have a master transponder so no officer could be shot (seems rather logical, protect the LEO's) what if a criminal stole one, or a cop broke the law?

these are difficult ares to navigate, and I understand the car/gun analogy ends and where it does, however for people who are reading this and not posting, understanding the analogy helps people understand the dichotomy between gun ownership and death versus car ownership and death. if they read the link to the gun control thread it clears alot of misconceptions up.

ill be honest

I feel safer in Virginia knowing that anyone around me might have a concealed weapon permit and be carrying, then i do getting into a car.

at least having a gun requires checks to be made and the CWP means they had training of which i teach. they have to be at least 21, and they have to have a decent amount of money (guns arent cheap generally for a good one)

reading a book and taking a easy test at the DMV allows you to get access to a car at as young as 16, why is it so easy? people obviously cant drive that well, we complain about it on here all the time.

lastly many people seem to think that having a gun is a privilege and a car is a right. even breaking the law to drive without insurance or a license or inspections. you better believe a gun owner is likely to know their laws well enough(usually) or they lose the gun forever and cant get it back the FIRST time they screw up. they are required in VA as part of the CCW to know when they can and cant use it in general terms, tell me how many times in the news has a repeat drug offender or alcoholic had an accident and killed or maimed someone and its their 3rd or 4th time? shouldn't we be somewhat concerned over that?

road rage even with the use of a gun, implies that some tool did something stupid in a car. instead of expecting the NRA to do the legwork (which it does btw, its just stymied alot over fear or lack of understanding, or even hatred.) why can responsible people see the need to educate about guns and tighten up car laws. (maybe put a Breathalyzer in the car as some states do for DUI convictions)

[Cold_Zero]

road rage even with the use of a gun, implies that some tool did something stupid in a car. instead of expecting the NRA to do the legwork (which it does btw, its just stymied alot over fear or lack of understanding, or even hatred.) why can responsible people see the need to educate about guns and tighten up car laws. (maybe put a Breathalyzer in the car as some states do for DUI convictions)

Maybe we need to come up with a ragalyzer to gauge a person's rage and there for shuts the car off (like the OnStar slow down technology) to keep someone from having road rage?

[AZhitman]

All this scurrying around and theorizing, and it still brings us back around to the same conclusion:

People need to stop doing stupid shlt, and more laws / restrictions is not an effective solution.

[themadscientist]

So now lets hear the NRA supporters tell us again why guns should be carried around?

So I can shoot back

I love the antigun guys, so deluded, always a laugh but at the same time scary; you guys really beleive that stuff. Let's all have a group hug and the world will be a nice place. Grow up seriously or get slughtered like the rest of the livestock. People are sick evil ****s and it's nice to be able to bring down a rabid dog quick and easy. If guns were gone tomorrow; and I mean completely and totally gone, criminals and other whackos would just use knives. Take those next now we are back to sticks and rocks (old school), take them next that leaves bare hands, wanna cut those off too?

Want an example. Took me about 1 minute in the same paper you cite.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/ne...story

I am outraged. I think we need pipe control. These are dealy weapons and should not be allowed in our community.

There is your argument for carry permits. Or are you saying these guys rights are less than their attackers? Ask these guys if they would have liked to have a gun then. The story would have been different I suspect. luckily no criminals got hurt, that would have been a tragedy.

[AZhitman]

It made sense when it was written in a sparsely settled country.

Ah.

So the document is obsolete? Or it should only apply to certain people?

Good.

Then I propose that the rights guaranteed by in no longer apply to people who'd advocate the taking away of other people's rights.

Sorry T. No more freedoms for you.

BTW, Are you the determinant of what "sparsely settled" means? Compared to Tokyo, NYC is "sparsely settled".

You have a lot of grandiose notions that smell like solutions, until you actually ponder the implications. Might I suggest you do so?

Are you going to shoot someone who touches your bumper while trying to parallel park in crowded cities?

On a side note, no. I'm generally a pretty calm, caring and considerate person. But when that other motorist comes out of his car waving a lug wrench, heading straight at me and screaming profanities, he's getting 3 rounds in the center of mass.

Period.

Done.

Where's my suit and tie, see you in court. I have nothing to hide, I'm a pillar of society with a clean record. "Case dismissed, have a nice day Mr. Childs."

I don't carry, because I have kids. I do keep an ASP in all of my cars in easy reach. I'll go back to a CCW once my kids are a little older.

[rn79870]

Remember, the Constitution has seen amendments repealed before.The 2nd. amendment can be repealed, modified or simply changed by the will of the people. All it would take is someone with sufficient (very sufficient) financial resources to accomplish this.

[themadscientist]

The fact that it hasn't thus far demonstrates that the "will of the people" is on my side not yours.

[rn79870]

And what is my side?

[themadscientist]

I'm not against private gun ownership. I'm against private gun ownership without good, quality professional type training. Especially for those who have never been in the military.

That. Which I completely agree with. I confused you for the OP, sorry bout that.

[telcoman]

Ah.

So the document is obsolete? Or it should only apply to certain people?

Good.

Then I propose that the rights guaranteed by in no longer apply to people who'd advocate the taking away of other people's rights.

Sorry T. No more freedoms for you.

BTW, Are you the determinant of what "sparsely settled" means? Compared to Tokyo, NYC is "sparsely settled".

You have a lot of grandiose notions that smell like solutions, until you actually ponder the implications. Might I suggest you do so?

On a side note, no. I'm generally a pretty calm, caring and considerate person. But when that other motorist comes out of his car waving a lug wrench, heading straight at me and screaming profanities, he's getting 3 rounds in the center of mass.

Period.

Done.

Where's my suit and tie, see you in court. I have nothing to hide, I'm a pillar of society with a clean record. "Case dismissed, have a nice day Mr. Childs."

I don't carry, because I have kids. I do keep an ASP in all of my cars in easy reach. I'll go back to a CCW once my kids are a little older.

As Bob pointed out, the constitution can be changed and amended

Sparsely settled is most of Azizona

In other gun news today

NJ is not Texas

Not sure who over reacted but will the next of kin please come and claim ther body

Posted: Monday, 11 August 2008 2:05PM

N.J. Police Shooting of Motorist to Go to Grand Jury

MORRISTOWN, N.J. (AP) -- The fatal shooting of a 21-year-old man by police after a traffic stop will go to a grand jury.

Morris County Prosecutor Robert A. Bianchi made the announcement Monday.

Ruben Martinez was shot five times by Denville Police Officer Richard Byrne on June 26.

Prosecutors say Byrne stopped Martinez for speeding and reckless driving, but it's not clear what led to the shooting.

Newspaper reports said the officer was dragged by the moving vehicle. Martinez then crashed into an aboveground swimming pool. Bianchi said a video taken from Byrne's patrol car depicts most of the incident but not every detail.

Martinez lived in Laredo, Texas, and was visiting New Jersey for his brother's high school graduation.

TM & Copyright 2008 CBS Radio Inc. and its relevant subsidiaries. CBS RADIO & EYE Logo TM & Copyright 2008 CBS Broadcasting Inc. Used under license. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. TheAssociated Press contributed to this report. Telcoman

[AZhitman]

I smell a criminal-loving whiner.

I don't even need to read the details to know that Martinez needed some hot lead therapy.

Besides, this thread, which YOU started, is about "road rage and guns"... WHY are you bringing in an article about what appears to be a legitimate police shooting? Did you just learn how to use Google, and type in "car + gun"?

Regardless of how many times the FACTS counter your confused worldview, you just go snatch up and copy/paste another useless article.

How about responding to the countless times you've been "outed" instead of scurrying off for another article?

Reading your posts is like watching a mentally-deficient chimpanzee chasing a superball in a room full of mirrors.

It has nothing to do with our POV's differing. It has everything to do with an inability to maintain attention span and finish what you started.

[96Qowner]

Ran across this while researching - the guy wrote a book about the subject of gun ownership and deaths.

There is a strong negative relationship between the number of law-abiding citizens with permits and the crime rate—as more people obtain permits there is a greater decline in violent crime rates. For each additional year that a concealed handgun law is in effect the murder rate declines by 3 percent, rape by 2 percent, and robberies by over 2 percent.

Question: What is the basis for these numbers?

Lott: The analysis is based on data for all 3,054 counties in the United States during 18 years from 1977 to 1994.

He also says this:

Question: Wouldn't allowing concealed weapons increase the incidents of citizens attacking each other in tense situations? For instance, sometimes in traffic jams or accidents people become very hostile—screaming and shoving at one another. If armed, might people shoot each other in the heat of the moment?

Lott: During state legislative hearings on concealed-handgun laws, possibly the most commonly raised concern involved fears that armed citizens would attack each other in the heat of the moment following car accidents. The evidence shows that such fears are unfounded. Despite millions of people licensed to carry concealed handguns and many states having these laws for decades, there has only been one case where a person with a permit used a gun after a traffic accident and even in that one case it was in self-defense.

But his data is only based on 18 years worth of stats from every USA county, and only through 1994. You may be able to find more inclusive, up-to-date data.

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/....html

[rn79870]

That's interesting and runs opposite of what I would have believed. I hope it's because the presence, rather than the use, of a firearm prevented the escalation of the event.

[AZhitman]

It's no surprise at all.

If, in any given confrontation, you know without a doubt you can prevail, your stress level decreases, thereby allowing clearer thinking and more rational responses.

Whenever a person (or animal) feels there's no way out, logic and rational thought are the first to suffer, and all bets are off.

There's a reason people with martial arts training get in fewer fights.

[AZhitman]

Not sure who over reacted but will the next of kin please come and claim ther body

Here's your "overreaction"

The Denville police officer who fatally shot Ruben Martinez after a traffic stop was kneeling on the car's passenger seat and trying to remove the ignition keys when Martinez drove off, wedging the officer inside the car, authorities said Monday.

Byrne and Denville Police Officer Daniel Fernandez were on patrol when they received a call about an "erratic driver," according to the motion.

"The officers caught up to the (Martinez) vehicle, activated their lights and sirens, and prepared to make a motor vehicle stop," it read.

Martinez allegedly did not stop, prompting a high-speed pursuit through a residential neighborhood for about a half-mile and through two stop signs. Next, he allegedly lost control of his vehicle, ran it onto a curb and stalled the car. Byrne and Fernandez exited their patrol cars and ordered him to exit his vehicle, but Martinez allegedly did not obey.

"Patrolman Byrne opened the passenger's door. He got onto the passenger's seat on his knees and tried to take the keys out of the ignition but was unsuccessful," the motion read.

"Mr. Martinez restarted his car, put it into gear and drove off, causing the door to slam into a police car and close behind Patrolman Byrne. While traveling down the road still in the vehicle, Patrolman Byrne shot and killed the driver," the motion read.

"The vehicle then went through a fence, jumped a concrete wall, and landed in an above-ground pool," the motion read.

Byrne, a 14-year Denville police officer, remains on leave due to a shoulder injury sustained in the incident, Denville Police Chief Christopher Wagner said last week.

Shame on your retarded state for convening a grand jury for what SHOULD be an easy decision.

I'm glad your grandchild wasn't in the path of Martinez's car.

[Marenta]

There's a reason people with martial arts training get in fewer fights.

Exactly! They don't usually go out looking to hurt people, because they know they have an unfair advantage over the average Joe. And, most people with guns know that they have an unfair advantage over somebody trying to get into their grill about something.

Criminals have to think twice before entering a house. Hearing the sound of a racking slide, or the pump action of a shotgun, or any of the more commonly hostile gun noises will scare away and deter most criminals.

I own guns, I don't go out looking to shoot people. I wish that I never have to shoot somebody, and that I'm never put into the position of doing so. It's statistically bound to happen.. you give more people the rights to protect themselves > then the crime rate will drop.

[Jager]

96q, thanks for finding that, I quoted part of that research in my gun control thread, but couldn't find a reputable link to use that wasn't biased one way or the other.

[AZhitman]

The fearmongering will continue, folks.

telco and people of his ilk will continue to side with the criminal element and condemn the efforts of law enforcement officers...

I'm no expert, but this kid's stupidity cost him his life. I'm glad he didn't take an innocent bystander (or the veteran officer with 4 kids) with him.

[Jager]

telco I am still waiting on you to reply to providing facts to back up your points , any of your points.

at this point i am almost considering that you are a pseudo Screen name to stir debate and take heat.

Bob, et all, I humbly offer you the opportunity if you so choose when/if your in Va to come shooting with me. or at least to sit down and have a genuine face to face discussion about this sorta thing. I can bring NRA materials that we use for the class (CWP) as well as other information and even run a mock class if you want to see how we are supposed to teach gun usage and laws etc for VA.

The forum is an awesome way to communicate considering the distance, but on such a hot button issue, the amount of knowledge that is not on the internet is quite large. also the amount of books, packets, and informationgiven to a standard class fills a three ring binder. (which i may violate copyright by publishing or scanning here) I think setting aside biases, political leanings or personal views on the matter, seeing what the NRA gives and being able to pick my brain in real time may offer you a better insight into why i hold the views i do. and if nothing else certainly gives everyone a chance to really be honest with as much data on the table as i can provide.

I will be at VIR pending my health holding, I assume greg and others should be there, Bob will you be making the trip?

also greg when is VIR this year?

[AZhitman]

telco I am still waiting on you to reply to providing facts to back up your points , any of your points.

at this point i am almost considering that you are a pseudo Screen name to stir debate and take heat.

I've been asking the same thing for weeks.

If I didn't trust Bob (our esteemed Moderator) implicitly, I'd suspect "telco" as his crotchety and demented alter ego....

I will be at VIR pending my health holding, I assume greg and others should be there, Bob will you be making the trip?

I'll be there, and I look forward to making your acquaintance in person. I'm not a shooter, so I'll pass on the "bang-bang" excitement, but we'll certainly have a great meal and some adult beverages.

I pray your health holds long after we hang out.

[telcoman]

telco I am still waiting on you to reply to providing facts to back up your points , any of your points.

at this point i am almost considering that you are a pseudo Screen name to stir debate and take heat.

Sorry for the delay in my response

I can no longer access this site at work. They are tightening internet access.

My point is guns are dangerous in the hands of most people. The NRA and the rest of the gun lobby refuse to police themselves so the rest of the public looks to government and the police to solve the problem.A few here appear to be responsible and knowledgable but for the most part both the federal government and state and local authorities need to tighten up restructions pertaining to gun ownership in the United States. Perhaps its time to change the constitution as bob pointed out in a previous post?

Tell us again how responsible some gun owners are?

Too many nut jobs obtaining guns INMHO

Here was another $sshole gun owner

August 15, 2008Arkansas Suspect Quit Job on Day of Killing By SHAILA DEWAN and JOHN M. HUBBELLTimothy Dale Johnson, the suspect in the slaying of the chairman of the Arkansas Democratic Party in Little Rock on Wednesday, quit his job as a night-shift worker at a Target store in Conway, Ark., early that morning after an irate outburst, according to a police report and a statement from Target.

Mr. Johnson quit after he scrawled graffiti on the walls at work. KTHV-TV reported that the graffiti was rife with expletives and was critical of Target, raging that the store was run by “dumb jocks.” A police report about the incident said that a store official characterized Mr. Johnson as “extremely irate.”

Police officials said Mr. Johnson, 51, killed Bill Gwatney, the Democratic chairman, in the party headquarters Wednesday morning with several gunshots. After a long car chase, Mr. Johnson was fatally wounded in a shootout with the police, the authorities said.

Target released a statement saying that Mr. Johnson had worked at the store without incident since November 2006. “He had no history of behavioral or performance problems,” the statement said. Police have not found any record of previous criminal acts by Mr. Johnson, said Lt. Terry Hastings of the Little Rock Police Department.

The police were called to the store, about 30 miles from Little Rock, at 8 a.m. on Wednesday. The shooting at the party headquarters occurred just before noon.

Mr. Johnson’s neighbors on his semi-rural street in Searcy, Ark. said he was a quiet man who played with the neighborhood children and dispensed vegetables from his garden on his day off.

“He loved his job,” said Jeannie Liles, a neighbor. Ms. Liles said she could not recall Mr. Johnson’s ever making political comments or saying anything about the Democratic Party.

Mr. Johnson did not indicate his party preference on his voter registration, but voted in the Republican presidential primary earlier this year, according to records at the White County registrar’s office. He voted in Republican primaries in 2002 and 2004, and in a Democratic primary and runoff in 2006, the record shows.

Shortly before noon on Wednesday, Mr. Johnson entered the headquarters and asked to see Mr. Gwatney, Lieutenant Hastings said.

“He walked around an employee, walked in and did meet Mr. Gwatney,” the lieutenant said. “They introduced themselves. At that time, he pulled out a handgun and shot Chairman Gwatney several times. He then turned and left the business.”

At about that time, Mr. Gwatney’s assistant burst into a florist shop across the street from the headquarters, said Sarah Lee, a sales clerk at the shop. “She was saying that somebody was in her office shooting a gun, and she didn’t know if he had been hit,” Ms. Lee said. “She was just screaming, so we got her behind the counter and locked the door because we didn’t know if someone was following her.”

The assistant, Amy Bell, said that she had tried to put the man off by offering him bumper stickers, but that he had walked past her into Mr. Gwatney’s office. Ms. Lee said Ms. Bell recited a description of the man: khaki pants, white shirt, silver-gray hair. “She said: ‘He didn’t scare me. He was puzzling to me for some reason, and I was trying to get rid of him,’ ” Ms. Lee said.

About 10 employees were in the headquarters at the time of the shooting, and many fled, with one running two blocks to the Capitol to try to alert security, Ms. Lee said.

The police said Mr. Johnson next entered the Arkansas Baptist State Convention building several blocks away, where he pointed a gun at an employee but did not shoot. Dan Jordan, the convention’s business manager, told KTVH-TV that the suspect said he had just lost his job.

The suspect then fled in a blue Dodge truck, beginning a chase that involved several law enforcement agencies and reached into the next county.

When officers immobilized the truck, Mr. Johnson got out and began shooting. The police returned fire, wounding him. The suspect was flown to Baptist Health Medical Center, where he later died. Lieutenant Hastings said several weapons were recovered.

The Capitol was locked down for 45 minutes until word came that the gunman had been caught. Mr. Gwatney had a background in banking, and his family owns car dealerships in Arkansas and Tennessee. Lieutenant Hastings said the suspect was not a current or former employee of the car dealerships.

The shooting roiled the close-knit world of Arkansas Democratic politics, of which Mr. Gwatney was a longstanding member.

Mr. Gwatney acknowledged that his family’s wealth gave him the freedom to indulge his love of policy and politics. He served in the State Senate from 1993 to 2003, leaving office because of term limits. He represented Jacksonville, a Little Rock suburb, and made health care a central issue.

State Senator John Paul Capps, Democrat of Searcy, said Mr. Gwatney had divorced and remarried last year. Mr. Capps said Mr. Gwatney had two daughters and two stepdaughters.

Regarded as an innovative legislator, Mr. Gwatney headed a panel charged with rescuing the Arkansas State Police health insurance program, bluntly informing the trustees (mostly state police personnel) that its tradition of no premiums and low co-pays was unrealistic.

Perhaps his best-known legislative achievement was a law that required insurance companies to pay the same fees to out-of-network doctors who agreed to the same terms as network doctors.

Mr. Gwatney was the finance chairman for Mike Beebe’s successful campaign for governor in 2006, and was appointed by Mr. Beebe to head the state party.

Matt DeCample, the governor’s press secretary, said Mr. Beebe was in an airplane when he received word of the shooting, returned to Little Rock and went directly to the hospital.

“Arkansas has lost a great son, and I have lost a great friend,” Mr. Beebe said in a statement.

Mr. Gwatney, a supporter of Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton’s presidential bid, was to have been a superdelegate at the Democratic National Convention this month. Mrs. Clinton and her husband, former President Bill Clinton, issued a joint statement after the attack.

“We are deeply saddened by the news that Bill Gwatney has passed away,” the statement said. “His leadership and commitment to Arkansas and this country have always inspired us and those who had the opportunity to know him. Our prayers are with his family during this time.”

Mr. Clinton was a former Arkansas governor.

Shaila Dewan reported from Atlanta, and John M. Hubbell from Little Rock, Ark. Robbie Brown contributed reporting from Atlanta.

Telcoman

[Marenta]

*puts her head on the desk*

Lord, grant me serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

How about this Telco, I'll come and sneak into your house with a few guns (they'll be unloaded, of course) and let's just see how far I can get before you find another way to protect yourself? Hell, if I were crazy and deranged enough, I could off your entire family without you even knowing.

Problem is, the same government you want to help control the guns and all that, yeah, well, they're not going to be able to save you if you take all the guns away. FYI.

The NRA is the biggest lobbyist for guns rights that we have, not only do they lobby for guns rights, they also teach gun safety (and more than that) to every age range. So, just because somebody has a bad day, and they happen to have a gun around doesn't mean that if you have a bad day and you have a 2 2/3" wrench in your garage that you're not going to waylay the person that's giving you gruff.

[rn79870]

/hijack/

It's been said;The democrats want to take your guns, the republicans want to take your p0rn collection.

/end hijack/

2 2/3"wrench...

Hum, is that like a Cresent hammer?

[AZhitman]

The NRA and the rest of the gun lobby refuse to police themselves

Ummm, what?

Maybe we should blame the state's democratic leadership for failing to put safeguards in place to recognize (and sufficiently treat) this man's clear and obvious signs of mental illness and minimize the possibility that he might act irrationally.

Sorry, H - Can't go along with your reasoning here. I'm pretty sure a prohibition on firearm wouldn't have prevented this anyway. Don't blame the gun, blame the handler.

[Marenta]

/hijack/It's been said;The democrats want to take your guns, the republicans want to take your p0rn collection.

/end hijack/

Well, then it's a good thing that all my p0rn contains firearms, isn't it?

A 2 2/3" wrench is about 3 feet long and weighs around 13 lbs, by the way. Whenever they called away "Trufflehound" which was the TR's way of calling away intruder in the plant, we would be required to get out "weapons" to protect ourselves from the intruder.. this usually included large wrenches, flame throwers, toxic chemicals and lots and lots and lots of rolls of nuclear red duct tape.

[telcoman]

*puts her head on the desk*

Lord, grant me serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

How about this Telco, I'll come and sneak into your house with a few guns (they'll be unloaded, of course) and let's just see how far I can get before you find another way to protect yourself? Hell, if I were crazy and deranged enough, I could off your entire family without you even knowing.

Problem is, the same government you want to help control the guns and all that, yeah, well, they're not going to be able to save you if you take all the guns away. FYI.

The NRA is the biggest lobbyist for guns rights that we have, not only do they lobby for guns rights, they also teach gun safety (and more than that) to every age range. So, just because somebody has a bad day, and they happen to have a gun around doesn't mean that if you have a bad day and you have a 2 2/3" wrench in your garage that you're not going to waylay the person that's giving you gruff.

Marenta

I'm sort of impressed with your extensive knowledge of firearms and I don't have a problem with others like yourself owning them. I am in favor of very tight restrictions by both the federal and state governments regulating both the type of guns and the passage of training and licensing requirement for those wishing to legally own one. (Only one should be sufficient)

Breaking into anyones house to try a prove a point is a good way to get yourself shot to death by the police after my alarm goes off.

More on illegal guns

Newark Star Ledger

"Respected teen is slain in bed, to Newark's griefPosted by cjrothma August 15, 2008 00:05AMA sleeping 15-year-old Newark boy was killed in his bed Thursday morning by a stray bullet fired by a young neighbor handling a military-style assault rifle downstairs.

Bukhari Washington was asleep in his second-floor apartment when a single round from the gun sliced through the first-floor ceiling and the upstairs bedroom floor, tore through his mattress and struck him in the back of the head just before 9 a.m.

His mother heard the shot and found him in bed.

The teenager, a freshman at Christ the King Preparatory who worked at a summer camp near his Newton Street home, was taken to University Hospital and pronounced dead.

The alleged shooter, Terrance Perry, 19, fled the building but was found at his girlfriend's nearby apartment a couple of hours later, police said. Perry, who has no criminal record, surrendered and led investigators to the gun, a Norinco SKS rifle, which he had stashed in his girlfriend's car. Then he led them to the place where he discarded the magazine that held the gun's 7.62-mm bullets, police said.

Perry told investigators he'd fired the gun accidentally while trying to unload it. He was charged with aggravated manslaughter and illegal gun possession.

"It looks like he was fiddling with the weapon and it fired," Newark police director Garry McCarthy said. "Whether he did it intentionally or accidentally, we'll have to determine that."

The shooting took place in New Community Commons, a complex of low-slung brick apartment buildings in Newark's Central Ward. Both shooter and victim were portrayed by neighbors as quiet, unassuming, and averse to trouble.

"I know both of them, and they didn't bother nobody," Chantay Gatewood said.

Gatewood's 13-year-old daughter, Shakima, said she was Bukhari's girlfriend. She described him as a normal boy who lived with his mother and got along with everyone. He liked to horse around with little kids and play pickup basketball, even though he wasn't very good at it, she said.

"He wasn't a gangbanger or nothing," Shakima said, tears streaming down her cheeks. "He was a regular kid."

Bukhari had endured a series of hardships -- homelessness, a fractured family -- but remained determined to overcome it all, people who knew him said.

"You cannot get a kid better than this," said Ronald Alston, whose son was Bukhari's closest friend. "He got in no trouble. If you asked him to wash the dishes, if you asked him to rake the backyard, he'd do it faster than your own child."

Last year, Bukhari told his story to a New York Times education columnist who visited Christ the King Preparatory. He recalled the death of his father, his mother's heart disease, a brother who'd gone to jail and another who'd been placed in a psychiatric hospital.

He talked about living in a homeless shelter and attending 13 schools by the eighth grade before he found Christ the King, a Catholic school for low-income students that opened last fall. He was determined to get an education.

"I have to end this curse," Bukhari was quoted as saying. "Our family has been through so many problems, continuous problems. I feel like I have to stop it, and I'm capable of stopping it."

At Christ the King Thursday, students and staff held a prayer vigil for Bukhari, who attended the school on a scholarship and won its chess tournament in March. His resolve was widely admired.

"It's amazing that he got up every day and made it to school and did as well as he did, given everything that was going on in his life," said Anthony Nicotera, the school's director of development.

Pam Rauscher, the school's director of admissions, remembered interviewing Bukhari for a spot in last year's freshman class. When it ended, he hugged her.

"There are some students who you meet and you know there's something special about him," Rauscher said.

On his summer break, Bukhari participated in a work-study program for high school students, run by New Communities Corp., called "Teen Learn and Earn." He and other students went to school one day a week, learning life skills and taking college prep classes. The rest of the week, they earned $7.15 an hour assisting counselors at a neighborhood day camp.

His supervisor, Edward Morris, said Bukhari was an ideal employee: polite, punctual, well-groomed, nicely dressed. "It was always 'Good morning' with a handshake and 'Goodbye' with a handshake," Morris said. "After work let out at 5, he often stayed late, hanging out, playing ball, staying off the streets."

The camp dispatched grief counselors Thursday to help Bukhari's co-workers.

At the shooting scene, Perry's relatives and neighbors said Perry had started carrying the rifle after he was robbed and stabbed near his home in the past year.

But McCarthy called that explanation "absurd." He noted that an SKS is about 3 feet long, fires bullets that can cut through metal and concrete, and is manufactured for Russian soldiers.

"If someone wanted a weapon for protection they could secret on their body, this is not that kind of weapon," McCarthy said.

Perry told police he'd obtained the gun on the street, McCarthy said. Investigators are trying to find out exactly how.

"The issue here is the proliferation of firearms in this country," the police director said.

In a statement, Mayor Cory Booker called Bukhari's death "tragic and unacceptable."

"This violent incident is further proof of the work that still lies before us, and the importance of passing and enforcing legislation to curb access to illegal firearms on the streets of New Jersey's cities," Booker said. "

Explain again why guns in crowded cities are necessary?

Telcoman

[szh]

But McCarthy called that explanation "absurd." He noted that an SKS is about 3 feet long, fires bullets that can cut through metal and concrete, and is manufactured for Russian soldiers.

Uh ... excuse me? A 7.62mm bullet fired from an SKS cannot go through metal and concrete. Total BS.

Z

[Marenta]

Explain again why guns in crowded cities are necessary?

The exact same reason why you are trying to keep guns out of the crowded cities, Telco.

Let's just play it safe. Let's assume that for every 1 legal gun owner out there, there's 1 illegal gun owner. And, out of this assumption, let's say that 25% of the illegal gun owners are insane or dangerous.

That's still a reasonable amount of crazy people walking around with guns. You'll have a far better chance of survival if you have citizens walking around with the same guns that are willing to step in and help you out if you're caught in a situation where you're up against a crazy. Other than that, you have to rely upon the police, and who knows if they'll show up or how long it'll take.

[AZhitman]

Explain again why guns in crowded cities are necessary?

Explain to me why abortions are necessary when there's an adoption waiting list a mile long?

Explain to me why curse words are necessary on primetime TV?

Explain to me why protesters can surround my office and make me 2 hours late for dinner and I can't do a damn thing about it?

Explain to me why an unarmed burglar I shoot in the middle of the night, breaking into my car in my driveway has the right to sue me?

Explain to me why I have to explain to my young daughter what "genital herpes" is after she sees a commercial on TV?

Explain to me why I had to sit in an E.R. with my dying spouse for 11 hours one night because a bunch of illegals with the flu and a few injured drunks were ahead of us in line?

I'll answer, so you don't hurt yourself:

BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVE RIGHTS. The Constitution is a phenomenal document - You should study it someday.