Rear tires rubbing over bumps!

[Mr240dude]

Dont buy garbagespeed coils. You can get some good used coils for $600. RUCA is Rear Upper Control Arm. If you get an adjustable one, you can control your camber.

Thans Krash. Any brand suggested for RUCAS?

[simmode1]

With 15x8 you might want to be in the high teens or low 20s with offset (simmode?)

Sounds about right to me. Plenty of examples on the Rimtuck link. I mean, if you take the proper precautions, the OP can retain the current wheels easily. But yeah, the idea of throwing stockers back on temporarily was a good one, IMO.

[confused9]

Thanks guys I guess ordering those rear struts was a mistake. Well I will see how it plays when they're installed. I know this is noobish, but what exactly is RUCAS? Speaking of coils, is godspeed garbage? Their coils run for 600 new.

Powered By Max is an awesome company with an outstanding reputation for their quality in their products not to include only $1000 for them.http://www.gtfactory.jp/cms/page.php?23

[Mr240dude]

Alright guys just a little update. Unfortunately changing out the rear struts did NOTHING. In fact I feel the car is more bouncy and my tires are rubbing more over turns and bumps.

Can it simply be the crappy springs from Ebay or are the wheels I'm rocking (xxr2) really that bad on the offset? ....or perhaps skinnier tires would remedy the issue...

Should I invest in quality lowering springs or would coils make a huge world of difference??

Someone help me here this is getting irritating.

[mechanicalmoron]

Alright guys just a little update. Unfortunately changing out the rear struts did NOTHING. In fact I feel the car is more bouncy and my tires are rubbing more over turns and bumps.

Can it simply be the crappy springs from Ebay or are the wheels I'm rocking (xxr2) really that bad on the offset? ....or perhaps skinnier tires would remedy the issue...

Should I invest in quality lowering springs or would coils make a huge world of difference??

Someone help me here this is getting irritating.

Did you replace them with stock struts? And are they new struts? (you can tell if your struts are bad by pushing down on the back of the car, and if when it rises it doesn't bounce, except for a bit from the tires, then your struts are good. Bad struts bounce, as papesmurf described it to me, like an old cadallac, like it keeps rocking)

Maybe your springs are stock stiffness, but shorter, or even softer than stock to make up for ride quality on the short travel, and they just allow too much travel. If your car feels.... comfortable... they're probably quite soft. (and if you want it to be comfortable, and you live somewhere without glassy smooth roads, you don't want coilovers, or a lowered car at all. It can be bone-jarring, even with "soft" coilovers)

Are you able to push on the car and make it hit the tires? Or if you have a friend get in the trunk and bounce, does it make it hit? If you can't replicate it parked, I'd be inclined to think there's something else funky going on, if it's rubbing you should be able to see how. I mean, maybe you just got a bad batch of tires, and what you're hearing is them de-laminating and shredding by themselves, on bumps? Can you see the place on the car where it's rubbing?

For now maybe you should put the stock springs back on, while you figure it out.

[Mr240dude]

Alright guys just a little update. Unfortunately changing out the rear struts did NOTHING. In fact I feel the car is more bouncy and my tires are rubbing more over turns and bumps.

Can it simply be the crappy springs from Ebay or are the wheels I'm rocking (xxr2) really that bad on the offset? ....or perhaps skinnier tires would remedy the issue...

Should I invest in quality lowering springs or would coils make a huge world of difference??

Someone help me here this is getting irritating.

Did you replace them with stock struts? And are they new struts? (you can tell if your struts are bad by pushing down on the back of the car, and if when it rises it doesn't bounce, except for a bit from the tires, then your struts are good. Bad struts bounce, as papesmurf described it to me, like an old cadallac, like it keeps rocking)

Maybe your springs are stock stiffness, but shorter, or even softer than stock to make up for ride quality on the short travel, and they just allow too much travel. If your car feels.... comfortable... they're probably quite soft. (and if you want it to be comfortable, and you live somewhere without glassy smooth roads, you don't want coilovers, or a lowered car at all. It can be bone-jarring, even with "soft" coilovers)

Are you able to push on the car and make it hit the tires? Or if you have a friend get in the trunk and bounce, does it make it hit? If you can't replicate it parked, I'd be inclined to think there's something else funky going on, if it's rubbing you should be able to see how. I mean, maybe you just got a bad batch of tires, and what you're hearing is them de-laminating and shredding by themselves, on bumps? Can you see the place on the car where it's rubbing?

For now maybe you should put the stock springs back on, while you figure it out.

No I replaced them with some Stagg struts, which I read good things about. They are new of course. So you think changing out the springs with some Tiens or Megans would make a difference?

When I push the car down I don't see it touching the tires. The area which is being rubbed is the sidewall, I will take pics today. As I said earlier there is some gap in between the fender and tire not like I'm slammed. The tires are definitely rubbing you can hear it over bumps and smell the burning smell. In fact one of them is brand new (good year).

Something tells me those springs are garbage, in fact last week at the shop we noticed the passenger side rear was lower than the driver side... I believe they are sagging and it's only been 4 months since install. Ebay sucks!

[CJH]

^^^well apparently fenders without bondo don't always roll so well, either... good god man, it looked better with fat wheels, than wrecked quarter panels. Gangster wheels, ruined body.

#1- You're an idot.

crappy springs from Ebay

those springs are garbage

Ebay sucks!

You know your main problem already. But I will say for the last time and then I'm done commenting on here. Have you rolled your fenders? I'm not saying pulled. All you need is a hammer and bend up that metal.

[Mr240dude]

No they are not rolled. Would it be expensive?

[danshaz82]

shouldnt be. you can:
A: rent a fender roller/heatgun from a local shop. one by me was like 50 bucks for a few days.
B: use the old baseball bat/pipe method
C: hammer the hell out of it.
D: pay a shop to do it.
cleanest way would be to rent the roller and heat gun or have the shop do it. cheapest way would be either hammer it or roll it with a pipe/bat.

[mechanicalmoron]

No I replaced them with some Stagg struts, which I read good things about. They are new of course. So you think changing out the springs with some Tiens or Megans would make a difference?

When I push the car down I don't see it touching the tires. The area which is being rubbed is the sidewall, I will take pics today. As I said earlier there is some gap in between the fender and tire not like I'm slammed. The tires are definitely rubbing you can hear it over bumps and smell the burning smell. In fact one of them is brand new (good year).

Something tells me those springs are garbage, in fact last week at the shop we noticed the passenger side rear was lower than the driver side... I believe they are sagging and it's only been 4 months since install. Ebay sucks!

I just can't see how it's rubbing that badly, if you can't make it do it by pressing down..... I assume you're not hitting these bumps THAT hard. What could change when you're moving? Because your spring and damping rates are NOT going to be what's changing.

I would suggest NOT buying new springs until you know exactly what's going wrong. Figure out exactly how the tire is touching when you're moving, but not when you're stationary, especially if if's not near flush and shouldn't actually be able to touch there.

Throwing parts at a problem, tempting as it is, is just self-delusion. Deep down you know it won't fix it, but damn, you WISH it would take the time to figure out what is happening, and why.

If you do buy new springs, better tein than megan, IMO. Tein designs and makes things, megan makes things that look like other people's things. I don't see much reason to think that generic ebay junk is not out of the same factory as megan, or made out of the same metal stock, etc.

[CJH]

No they are not rolled. Would it be expensive?

I do not mean roll your fenders with a fender roller or a bat. I doubt you need that. I mean just bend up the metal lip on the edge with a hammer. I figured you could youtube it like I have mentioned, but I guess that is outside your ability. You seem like you want to talk about this more than just fix it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDTK9IjKIYU

[Mr240dude]

No they are not rolled. Would it be expensive?

I do not mean roll your fenders with a fender roller or a bat. I doubt you need that. I mean just bend up the metal lip on the edge with a hammer. I figured you could youtube it like I have mentioned, but I guess that is outside your ability. You seem like you want to talk about this more than just fix it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDTK9IjKIYU

Oh somehow I missed that. I will check it out now.

[simmode1]

So yesterday, I saw a new car at work that I hadn't seen before. It was a black DC2 Integra with XXR 002 wheels just like the OP. The car was pretty low, so I'm pretty sure it was on coilovers & it was covered in Illest/Stance/wutthefuqever stickers.

Two things REALLY stood out to me about this car:
1) OMG the interior was so junky & gross that it looked like the owner had been living in the damn car.
2) It's fenders had been rolled & pulled to make space for the wheels/tires on the slammed suspension, but the roll/pull looked fuqqing TERRIBLE!!! The paint had been chipped & was was starting to rust in those places. And it looked like this jackazz used a set of vice grips or something to do the job.


So my advice to the OP is this: If you don't know what you're doing, go & get it professionally done.

[Mr240dude]

Alright guys this may be a little late, however I wanted to show some pics of how my wheels look as far as clearance goes. First off yes the tire size is 205/55/16.

Notice how much more gap there is on the rear driver side as opposed to the rear passenger. I'm beginning to think the culprit is these effing Ebay springs. There should be no reason one side sits lower than the other, also I just can't see why the tires are rubbing that bad with that much space between the fender and wheel. It's certainly bouncy as hell over the littlest bumps and when I turn with passengers in the car. Also if you look at the side walls you can see the shredding. (The passenger side tire is new so there's hardly any wear)

Any input from you fellow 240ers?


P.S. I've decided to get them professionally rolled in a couple weeks,

[CJH]

With that much wheel gap you shouldn't ever rub. Your suspension is junk. Replace your suspension with a better, non-ebay one. Go OEM struts and springs, or a quality lowering shock and spring combo. My personal choice is coilovers.

[krash]

Yea, my car is lower than that with KYB AGX and RSR springs, and I never rub. I do have 17x8.25 +25 though.

[Mr240dude]

Should I get some Teins or eibachs? Perhaps I should second think the fender rolling.

[Mr240dude]

Btw the rear struts were replaced with staggs...it was still rubbing with the kybs it came with

[mechanicalmoron]

Should I get some Teins or eibachs? Perhaps I should second think the fender rolling.

Like I was sayin'..... there is NO reason to roll your fenders, you're hardly lowered and should not be having this problem.

Measure your springs, maybe? Maybe soemething else is broken somewhere?

When you say bouncy, do you mean the car moves up and down, like you're in a boat? or do you mean stiff, like it doesn't have much travel and is uncomfortable? Any lowering will come with the latter, the former still suggests a damper problem.

Springs may (probably) have something to do with it, but it sounds (to me) like something else is messed up. There's just no way that should rub, and if rocking the back of the car when it's not moving can't make it rub, you have to consider that there's something else funky happening with the suspension to make it happen when you're moving.

Seriously, this has nothing to do with your fenders, at all. IMO, rolling them will pretty much toast your car, if you don't actually have wheels and full quality suspension that fits really well, that you're trying to match it to. If you just get it rolled, it will look silly and never fit any wheels well.

Put your stock springss on. Look for loose bolts or broken components as you do it, and if you find none and they fix the problem, then you know that was the issue.

[Mr240dude]

Yeah the car bounces like a boat even when no one else is in the car.. No issues have been found as of yet. I'll check for anything loose. If not then I'll just pick up some Teins and never buy ebay garbage again.

Thanks for your input.

[Hijacker]

If it bounces like a boat, your dampers (shocks) are bad. Swap them out for something quality and while you're at it, toss Tein or Eibach on them.

[Mr240dude]

If it bounces like a boat, your dampers (shocks) are bad. Swap them out for something quality and while you're at it, toss Tein or Eibach on them.

That's the thing...I just replaced the rear struts. It's got to be the damn springs.

[mechanicalmoron]

If it bounces like a boat, your dampers (shocks) are bad. Swap them out for something quality and while you're at it, toss Tein or Eibach on them.

That's the thing...I just replaced the rear struts. It's got to be the damn springs.

Are you sure that they're installed properly, with the springs assembled into the strut in a preloaded position?

Did you get new-new struts? Not "slightly used", or something that looked like it'd sat on a shelf forever?

With bad struts if you push it down, it will bounce up, and then down and up again, if that makes sense. The damper's job is to keep the spring from bouncing, and unless there's a REAL problem between spring and damping rates (like they're chosen exactly in such a way that they amplify each other) that still shouldn't happen.

One thing you can be sure of..... if you buy coilovers, not only can you get stiff enough ones with dampers designed to go with them, you can adjust the height (and often damping) to make everything work.

[Hijacker]

If it bounces like a boat, your dampers (shocks) are bad. Swap them out for something quality and while you're at it, toss Tein or Eibach on them.

That's the thing...I just replaced the rear struts. It's got to be the damn springs.

You put cheap china struts on the car. I did a quick google search and came back with a lot of negative reports of them blowing out obscenely early.

[mechanicalmoron]

Just by the way, as you where talking about RUCAS (though they won't help you with this, obviously) the FSM says that the stock eccentric bolt will go about five degrees positive or negative correction..... Unless you lower like twice what you are, you should be able to just get a 4-wheel alignment and it will take care of it.

[Hijacker]

5 degrees is way too much for the stock eccentrics. It's actually less than half a degree. Each tick mark on the eccentric bolt washer is 5' (minutes) of a graduation for a total of 25' negative and 25' positive. There are 60' in a degree, so you get less than half a degree either way. Granted, you can go beyond the tick marks, but I normally wouldn't recommend it. They're meant to correct small errors in alignment, not radically angle the tires in. If you roll the whole bolt over, you'll get 2+ degrees from full positive to full negative.

Without adjusting the traction rod, you throw off the upper A arm geometry severely, which screws the steering axis up as well as scrub radius, and a slew of other things like camber curve and toe curve.

[mechanicalmoron]

5 degrees is way too much for the stock eccentrics. It's actually less than half a degree. Each tick mark on the eccentric bolt washer is 5' (minutes) of a graduation for a total of 25' negative and 25' positive. There are 60' in a degree, so you get less than half a degree either way. Granted, you can go beyond the tick marks, but I normally wouldn't recommend it. They're meant to correct small errors in alignment, not radically angle the tires in. If you roll the whole bolt over, you'll get 2+ degrees from full positive to full negative.

Without adjusting the traction rod, you throw off the upper A arm geometry severely, which screws the steering axis up as well as scrub radius, and a slew of other things like camber curve and toe curve.

Okay, I can't read, and am ignorant besides.

My everything will be all sorts of messed up, I should probably raise the thing, as it's currently at 3 degrees camber without touching the eccentric, and I'm not rich enough to be cool. If I don't know what a scrub radius is.... chances are it's important. But how will the rear tires change the steering axis?

But this about the OP's screwed up suspension, not mine....

[Hijacker]

Every wheel that has a toe change rotates around a steering axis, also known as king pin inclination or king pin angle. It's the vertical line between upper and lower pivots. On a macP it's the line between the ball joint and the upper mount for the strut center. On a double a arm like our multi link rear, the steering axis is between the ball joint and the virtual intersection of the traction and camber links. Scrub radius is the distance between where the steering axis hits the ground and the center line of the tire contact patch.

A larger scrub radius is fine, but there are generally accepted limits. Most suggestions say to stay near factory, but for RWD, up to 3" is an acceptable upper limit. The reason being that the tire doesn't pivot on the center line of your tire, but at the steering axis where it inclines into the ground. The more scrub you run, the more effects of bump steer, torque steer, and fidgety wheels from road irregularities will be apparent. Scrub is more of an issue up front since the wheels turn more up there than in the back, but knowing the effects of scrub can alter grip in the rear under power while cornering.

Hopefully I'll be able to get the rear suspension mapped enough that I can finally publish an article I've been dying to get out concentrating on S chassis suspension.

[Mr240dude]

Ahhhh so many new words and factors. I guess this rear suspension is more complex than I thought. I wish I could think, "buy new springs and get rid of that ebay junk" sigh still no dice. Not wasting money on rolling fenders as that's not the problem evidently.

P.S. The poly front sway bar bushing made a difference though Iit only came with 4 end links not 8...Only have the sway bar bushing on. Putting on energy suspension steering rack bushings and rear poly bushings. Why does the steering rack come with 3 pieces?

[daemonyk]

Why does the steering rack come with 3 pieces?

You use a different combination of 2 depending on whether it's an s13 or s14 rack. One of the bushings works on both racks, the other 2 are specific to the rack. They just give you all 3 so the one kit works for either rack.