Rear Camber solutions for stock height [SOLVED - used SPC components]

Forum for Infiniti M35 and M45, and Nissan Fuga owners.
EdBwoy
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Rear Camber solutions for stock height [SOLVED - used SPC components]

Postby EdBwoy » Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:01 am

To summarize the long post: How badly off has your toe gotten while using aftermarket camber arms?

Edit to add some links I had looked over:
1. aligment-shop-full-of-dummies-or-just-me-t605040.html
2. spc-camber-kits-2006-2010-m35-m45-t597367.html
3. official-suspension-thread-t503080-30.html#p6692534

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I recently rotated my tires and noticed that the rear ones had excessive inner edge wear. Bad camber. It was negative 1.6 degrees on both sides.

Image

Image

The last person that touched my alignment was the dealership, and of course the numbers were acceptable then. It's possible that my suspension has worn so evenly, but I'm thinking more likely their machine isn't the greatest (I had to go back 3 times to get "acceptable" results)

After getting my new tires I went to Firestone and bought their lifetime alignment package, currently on sale for $162 after taxes, usually $200 before taxes. For comparison, the dealership standard alignment rate is $140.

So Firestone tells me they can't correct my camber. It sounds like my eccentric bolt is seized in the bushing sleeve. Apparently, after turning it to spec, they tighten the nut and they can see the bolt turning back to its original position.

Assuming the shop was actually doing everything right, I need to make moves before I chew up my new Continentals.
I want to buy an SPC camber arm with the turnbuckle adjustment, but I see they are normally sold with the toe adjustment bolt. SPC 72260
I understand that most times people that do this are lowered, but I want to remain at stock height. Here is what I'm curious about:

  1. Has anyone run out of Stock toe adjustment due to the aftermarket camber arm?
  2. For those using SPC specifically, did you use the curved arm or the straight one? It doesn't seem likely, but I have to confirm that the straight piece they offer has no interference with other parts down there, right?


Daniel23
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Re: Rear Camber solutions for stock height

Postby Daniel23 » Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:17 pm

Hey EdBwoy,
I have the exact same problem. I don't remember the exact degrees that my rear is currently at, but I do have a bit of negative camber as well. I also did recently purchase a new set of shoes, $250/tire is no joke. When I took it to a near by trusty alignment shop which has the same laser alignment lift as Firestone, the guy told me that he wouldn't be able to adjust the rear wheels completely. My car seems to be lowered from the rear even though, from what I've inspected, everything seems stock. I measured it with a measuring tape on a flat surface from the ground to the top of the fender. The rear was sitting at 27in and the front at 28in, meaning 1in lower in the rear with stock rims and tires. He said he could've adjusted it more, however the tires might start rubbing on the fender. He suspected that if the car wasn't lowered, perhaps the springs might be wearing out. However, his suggestion was to buy a Camber Kit from O'Rilley Part# 72262 Line: SPP, the kit stands at $196.99/pair. The only place I have found new replacement springs is on Infinitipartsusa.com for $327/each which is quite a bill to cover. I found the SPC Arms that you are talking about on ebay, then I mentioned those to him. He told me that from his experience with G's, those arms tend to bend after a while, but I'm not too sure how it reflects on M's. He said with the O'Rilley ones, if anything goes wrong, they will be covered by warranty, and I wouldn't have to deal with other sellers. The description states that they are made with SPC products. There is also another camber kit, well not really a kit from O'Rilley Part# 72260 Line: SPP they are priced at $122.99/each. I have a family member who is employed by O'Rilley which would bring them down to $75/each, however there isn't any discount on the kit that stands at $196. I've been riding like this for a month, but I need to fix this problem ASAP. I'm still not quite certain with which set I want to follow through with.
You can see the negative camber with the wheels sitting at an angle.
Image
Image
I'm curious to see how is your car sitting, measurement speaking. The second picture, shows how I measured the front, as you can see I ran the measuring tape through the middle and got 28in. Hopefully we're both able to find a solution to this soon..
P.S. I'm not too sure why TinyPic decided to flip the pictures sideways lol

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Re: Rear Camber solutions for stock height

Postby EdBwoy » Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:59 pm

Thanks Daniel, I'll have to check with O'Reillys especially if they are not special order and can be returned. From your mechanic's experience then I should avoid the bent arm and just go for the straight ones, correct? Or is it to avoid all of them altogether?

Here are some pictures to show relative height.
Some considerations - the car is sitting on a very slight slope, with the rear lower. The wheels and tires are not OEM sport 19 inchers, but the overall height is only 4mm taller.

Side view.
Image

Front height - 28"
Image

Rear height - 27-3/8"
Image


Generally, I have known Nissan vehicles to squat a little more in the back with age. I could spot an aged suspension in a Maxima or an Infiniti Q45 just like that!
That could make sense for us, since the M45 has close to 160k miles and has been sitting on the suspension for around 10 years. Mine isn't too low in the back yet, but since I decided to not sell it, I was going to buy all OEM suspension components when that time came.
Yikes! Even my favorite website can't give me too much relief on the sport shocks, but the standard ones are only $250. Link to discount site
For comparison, my 11 M56 with 78K miles sits at an even 28-3/4" front and rear in my garage. Maybe we'll see what others share for heights. I plan to measure the M45 again when I get it into the garage.


Your camber definitely looks pretty dramatic. Maybe with mine it's because of my wheels being further out, and they aren't as sunken into the wheel well/ wheel arch, but I can still see it. It might also be a psychological thing because now I know it's a little off.
Here are my pictures of the rear
Image

Image

Looking at the rear wheel from the front of the vehicle, facing the trunk.
Image




Regarding the full kit, with the toe bolts, you have to drill out your subframe/mounting point a little to allow more toe adjustment.
In reality, our camber arm is more of a front toe arm since it's not right at 12 o'clock or 6 o'clock... hence I know both front toe and rear toe have to be danced with to get to the correct specs.
I was curious if anyone found that the rear toe bolt maxed out on spec and needed to be modified anyway. I hate making irreversible changes to the car. I am actually going back to Firestone to see if the penetrant they applied will help loosen the bolts and even let me see what they are talking about the issue. I really like to know the root cause of my issues before applying band-aid fixes.

midnightclub619
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Re: Rear Camber solutions for stock height

Postby midnightclub619 » Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:41 pm

EdBwoy wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:01 am
To summarize the long post: How badly off has your toe gotten while using aftermarket camber arms?

Assuming the shop was actually doing everything right, I need to make moves before I chew up my new Continentals.
I want to buy an SPC camber arm with the turnbuckle adjustment, but I see they are normally sold with the toe adjustment bolt. SPC 72260
I understand that most times people that do this are lowered, but I want to remain at stock height. Here is what I'm curious about:

  1. Has anyone run out of Stock toe adjustment due to the aftermarket camber arm?
  2. For those using SPC specifically, did you use the curved arm or the straight one? It doesn't seem likely, but I have to confirm that the straight piece they offer has no interference with other parts down there, right?

I installed almost the entire SPC Camber kit. I installed the front upper control arm and have not any issues with Camber or Toe since you can adjust that with the front with the upper control arm.

The rear I only installed the Camber Arm, If i remember correctly it's straight. It does allow me to correct the Toe. Since my M is lowered with the BC Racing Coilovers I had to get this to avoid massive tire wear all around. I was able to adjust the Toe myself using that SPC camber arm (could be called something else). The bolt I believe would correct the Camber. I haven't installed that bolt and due to that I do have negative camber which I am ok with, the wear hasn't been that significant. Once I get tired of it I'll install that bolt.

But regarding the toe correction, by adjusting the SPC Lower arm I was able to correct the toe. I can try to get pics in the next few days if needed. My evenings are packed next few days.

Daniel23
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Re: Rear Camber solutions for stock height

Postby Daniel23 » Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:00 pm

EdBwoy wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:59 pm
Thanks Daniel, I'll have to check with O'Reillys especially if they are not special order and can be returned. From your mechanic's experience then I should avoid the bent arm and just go for the straight ones, correct? Or is it to avoid all of them altogether?
Correction, from what he told me, I was considering purchasing the SPC Camber Arms from ebay. That's when he told me to avoid purchasing them from there. He recommended the purchase from O'Reilly. His experience with the bending arms was when G owners would purchase arms from ebay. By bending I mean when they were originally installed they were straight arms, after time passed, the arms began to bend. However, I'm not too sure if it was the same SPC Arms we were looking at or some cheap knockoffs. The ones from O'Reilly, the pair that is $196 is a special order meaning they can't be returned, however the ones that are sold individually can be returned according to my brother.

I might measure my rear again on a different surface just to be sure. 3/8in isn't much, however considering yours has a bit over 10k more miles than mine, it is a bit of a gap, but who knows. My dad brought up the idea that perhaps the previous owner wanted to lower the car and could have cut the springs as a cheap solution. Apparently this is a common solution when individuals want a cheap and easy solution for lowering their vehicles. I'll have to inspect that just to be sure. I was planning on doing it today, but clouds started forming and it looks like it's about to pour. I'll try to get to it tomorrow if it doesn't clear up here in a little and perhaps post a few pics. As of right now, the solution that I'm considering is just going for the camber arms, before installing them go to the alignment shop, just for clarification.

One factor that is worth taking into consideration, if I was to install the camber arms and adjust the wheels to ride as intended; would added passengers in the back cause the tires to scrape at the top of the tire hole? Since it would be lower, perhaps the added weight would cause some issues during bumps. However, I don't think it would be a problem since there are people that drop the car with coilovers. I doubt they would never have passengers in the back. I think it would be fine, just a bit of overthinking lol

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Re: Rear Camber solutions for stock height

Postby EdBwoy » Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:56 pm

Thanks midnightclub, that gives me the info I need. I will go ahead and purchase that SPC arm set.
When I went back to Firestone, they were able to get me within spec (that is the outermost limit of adjustment range). What happened is that the left/driver side was at -1.5 before and when I brought the car back, it was miraculously at -1.3 degrees. The right side could be adjusted and he brought it to -1.3 degrees as well. Cool and all, but I don't like fluke adjustments.

So, I looked back at my history and when I was at the dealership a year ago, their last printout indicated that I was out of adjustment. In fact, I wrote it down in my own handwriting. I should pay better attention.
I am going to buy the arms because I know "in range" doesnt mean much when it comes to tire wear. I'll do it like Midnightclub and try to tweak my camber as close to zero as possible without having to install that bolt.

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Daniel, that's a little twist to it. Thanks for the clarification. I have seen some arms that I would describe as pre-bent. In that they have a bend in them like the OEM one. If peeps here are installing the straight ones with no fitment issues, then I'm more inclined to go for those as well to satistfy my suspicion of the quality of most "affordable" aftermarket components.

I'm hoping not too many Infiniti M springs have been cut, but I can't put anything past every owner. For one, it would be seriously squat city in the back with as low as they already sit. Then the other reasons are financial assumptions.
I know that negative camber helps a great deal in the handling, but I believe 0 degrees camber is achievable and maybe also factory spec when new. I'll have to confirm that.
I think as long as the wheel specs are kept within OEM range, putting an elephant on the trunk will articulate the wheel into the wheel well rather than contacting the quarter panel. Designing to account for the worst case scenario - most positive camber, flat tire (hence the widest patch) and you hit the mother of all pot holes - I'd want the wheel to not take anything out with it as it bounces back up. That's how I'd do it.

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Updates will be coming soon, but I'll limit my driving for now. Although surprisingly cheaper than the odd 245/40/19 OEM tire size, these 255/35/20 Contis still weren't cheap by any definition.

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Re: Rear Camber solutions for stock height

Postby EdBwoy » Fri Jul 27, 2018 6:36 pm

It's done! Thank you both for your input. I went ahead and purchased and installed the SPC 72260 kit. It is the straight turnbuckle arm kit that comes with an extended range toe bolt/washer.[the toe bolt was a little of a headache, I don't know if I really needed it]

So apart from normal wear and tear that took my OEM system to its outer limits, my driver side camber bolt had seized in the bushing sleeve - as they had mentioned, the bolt would snap back to its original position when adjusted. I used a thin blade with my angle grinder to cut the ends off.

Meanwhile, I look forward to seeing firestone at the next alignment. It's funny how some of the specs keep varying yet I am not doing any work there.
The alignment package i bought is paying for itself greatly.

Image

Daniel23
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Re: Rear Camber solutions for stock height [SOLVED - used SPC components]

Postby Daniel23 » Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:57 pm

Hey EdBwoy, I'm glad you were able to fix the problem. I also bought the Camber Arms, however I haven't installed them yet. Did you actually cut away the extra space for the Cam Bolt? I know you were very hesitant on those. I was reading online, and some kits came with the bit that we're suppose to use to make the cut away. Mine didn't come with one. Instead of buying a Dremel to make the process easier, I was thinking of buying a sanding/grinding bit and use my drill on it. I was just curious to see how you handled the process.

Thanks,
Daniel

EdBwoy
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Re: Rear Camber solutions for stock height [SOLVED - used SPC components]

Postby EdBwoy » Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:28 pm

Mine did not come with the tool either. And the template was just printed in the manual. I got the impression from their video that it was a piece of metal and not paper - it still worked though.
I did indeed cut out the holes (very unnerving since I have the sport model, and I was doing this to the rear "steering rack")


I bought a rotary file as recommended and used it on my drill but I was still having access issues and the tool seemed to get dull rather soon. Eventually I switched back and forth between the rotary file and straight drill bits using them to eat at the hole sideways (not all that convenient either)
What I found to move faster was using my Dremel tool with a grinding bit. Yes, the bit eventually flew off the shaft it was attached to, but that is how I plan to do my next one... Using a right angle attachment for clearance.


On another note, I am curious of what midnightclub's alignment specs look like since he didn't install the rear toe kit. For lowered cars seeking aggressive camber the full kit seems like a necessity. I wonder if we stock specs people actually need that rear one.
So, I actually plan to test this out before drilling on the next one. I bought a lifetime alignment package for my dad's car too. I'll install the camber arms and talk to them about how much adjustment the toe seems to have left. If it seems maxxed out, then I'll widen the holes and install the bolt. If not, I'll just keep them for a rainy day.

I hope to do that within the next 2 weeks.

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Re: Rear Camber solutions for stock height [SOLVED - used SPC components]

Postby midnightclub619 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:50 am

Hey Edbwoy

I was actually probably going to be getting under my car today to do some investigation for some other stuff but I can take some pics today and post. I don't have any official alignment specs but visually you can probably get an idea of what direction you might want to go. I'll update tonight.

EdBwoy
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Re: Rear Camber solutions for stock height [SOLVED - used SPC components]

Postby EdBwoy » Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:24 am

Cool, thanks. That will do.

No problems if you don't have the printout of your last alignment. Please take a pic of the toe bolts and how they are clocked [it will give me an idea of whether you are maxxed out on toe or not].
Also, if you notice any non-uniform tire wear, just let us know.

midnightclub619
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Re: Rear Camber solutions for stock height [SOLVED - used SPC components]

Postby midnightclub619 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:02 pm

Hi Ed,

Sorry for the delayed post. been super busy lately with the fam. But her are pics for my rear camber with toe adjustment.

Right
Image

Left
Image

Here is the Rear Toe adjustment control arm

Right
Image

Left
Image


Sorry I don't know why the pics are to one side like that. It won't let me rotate the pic...


Hope this helps

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Re: Rear Camber solutions for stock height [SOLVED - used SPC components]

Postby EdBwoy » Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:46 pm

I missed your update. But I have done this on another car. For anyone considering this, I did like midnight and only installed the camber arms, ignoring the toe bolts. No issues at all.
I wouldnt worry about it unless I was considering aggressive ride height and suspension changes.


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