Reading, 'Riting, and 'Rithmetic

[nissangirl74]

The three big subjects that receive THE most concentration around the nation in our public schools. Because teachers are 'teaching-to-the-test', others subjects have been tossed aside as less important because "they don't test for that". Case in point: Over 60% of fourth graders could not put the following items in order from largest to smallest: California, North America, The USA, and Los Angeles. Over 50% said LA was bigger than CA, and over 25% said that the USA was bigger than North America.

Does this not aggravate anyone else? I know we have GPS now and theoretically, you no longer need to know where you're at or what direction you need to be going in order to get somewhere because your phone will do it for you. However, I think it is important for people, of ALL ages, to know where they are in relation to their position on the Earth. Am I just showing my age or is it just not important / necessary knowledge to have anymore? When I was in the fourth grade, I had already had a test on all 50 states, their location on the map, their capitals, the major river systems and mountain chains of the USA and I knew the countries that bordered the USA. I can't imagine not knowing this stuff. Coincidentally, upon quizzing our (almost) eighth grader, who made the honor roll last year, I found out that she has never been tested on the states or their capitols. She can't name 10 states, let alone their capitols or locations on the map. Yet.

/rant

Discuss?

[Bubba1]

The three big subjects that receive THE most concentration around the nation in our public schools. Because teachers are 'teaching-to-the-test', others subjects have been tossed aside as less important because "they don't test for that". Case in point: Over 60% of fourth graders could not put the following items in order from largest to smallest: California, North America, The USA, and Los Angeles. Over 50% said LA was bigger than CA, and over 25% said that the USA was bigger than North America.

Does this not aggravate anyone else? I know we have GPS now and theoretically, you no longer need to know where you're at or what direction you need to be going in order to get somewhere because your phone will do it for you. However, I think it is important for people, of ALL ages, to know where they are in relation to their position on the Earth. Am I just showing my age or is it just not important / necessary knowledge to have anymore? When I was in the fourth grade, I had already had a test on all 50 states, their location on the map, their capitals, the major river systems and mountain chains of the USA and I knew the countries that bordered the USA. I can't imagine not knowing this stuff. Coincidentally, upon quizzing our (almost) eighth grader, who made the honor roll last year, I found out that she has never been tested on the states or their capitols. She can't name 10 states, let alone their capitols or locations on the map. Yet.


Discuss?

Agree 100%. But it's a sign of our age and changing times. I've thought it was a bit disturbing too, but I'm slowly getting used to it. While we were learning the 50 states in 4th grade, our children attend full D.A.R.E. events. As parents, we are forced to either supplement where the schools lack in teaching the basics or transfer them to a better school that does. Unfortuantely, public school is not what it used to be.

[Encryptshun]

'Rtihmetic

[themadscientist]

School breeds Pavlovian dogs who bark on command and wait patiently to be walked. Their leashes will give them comfort and doom us all.

[Encryptshun]

A well-run school does exactly the opposite, Mike. Unfortunately the people at the state boards of eduction and the local administrators usually have next to no practical classroom experience and generally spend all their time playing politics instead of understanding how children learn and how teachers teach.

[themadscientist]

A well-run school does exactly the opposite, Mike.

I don't know any that do. I survived school with my cognitive abilities intact. Most of my successors have not.

[frapjap]

I can't imagine not knowing this stuff. Coincidentally, upon quizzing our (almost) eighth grader, who made the honor roll last year, I found out that she has never been tested on the states or their capitols. She can't name 10 states, let alone their capitols or locations on the map. Yet.

/rant

Discuss?

Does that piss you off?

Its sad that the definition of "general knowledge" doesn't exist anymore. I feel bad for all those folks who don't have a want to learn more about the world around them, read, travel, understand how and why things work.

[bigbadberry3]

Teacher here. Teachers feel that they're backed into a corner. Because of No Child Left Behind a lot of the focus is on students passing standardized tests so were left with little freedom sometimes because our job depends on the exam scores.

[frapjap]

Teacher here. Teachers feel that they're backed into a corner. Because of No Child Left Behind a lot of the focus is on students passing standardized tests so were left with little freedom sometimes because our job depends on the exam scores.

Maybe you could teach some of these kids not to look both ways before walking into traffic?

[alms24sebring]

It doesnt matter if they dont test for it, its general freakin knowledge.
Bex I think your 100% right. Its a sad stat about kids knowledge. You should atleast know all 50 states and their general if not exact location when given a map

[Bubba1]

Teacher here. Teachers feel that they're backed into a corner. Because of No Child Left Behind a lot of the focus is on students passing standardized tests so were left with little freedom sometimes because our job depends on the exam scores.

Maybe you could teach some of these kids not to look both ways before walking into traffic?

Like Nala? I'll bet his teachers tried.

[Oatmealman]

unfortunately i'm pretty stupid about most things,but if it has an engine or a motherboard i can fix it.General knowledge isnt required for most things now a days.People don't care about those things anymore.It's all about how specific can they get into one field.

[Jesda]

Not a fan of NCLB. Should have been suspicious when Democrats and Republicans were "working together" on that pile of fail.

[Encryptshun]

So what would solve the education crisis (yes, I use that term deliberately) in the U.S.?

At the end of the day, kids either have to want to learn or be forced to learn. Both require parental involvement and appropriate role-models, neither of which are in large supply in our country today, unfortunately.

[nissangirl74]

Does "teaching to the test" benefit our children at all or does it just create revenue for the school system? Seems like the stuff they need to know, or at least "I" think they should know, is no longer relevant. AND, it's a lot of the basics that are being left out. Yes Ray, it does make me angry. I think our kids are being short-changed in their education. I also think a lot of people that are in control of the curriculum (not the teachers) are making choices based on financial payoffs and not knowledge gained.

[IBCoupe]

Does "teaching to the test" benefit our children at all or does it just create revenue for the school system? Seems like the stuff they need to know, or at least "I" think they should know, is no longer relevant. AND, it's a lot of the basics that are being left out. Yes Ray, it does make me angry. I think our kids are being short-changed in their education. I also think a lot of people that are in control of the curriculum (not the teachers) are making choices based on financial payoffs and not knowledge gained.

I don't think it's profit-driven. I think it's because there's a test, and teachers get pressure to perform on them, because the districts are judged on their performance. And I genuinely believe that the people pushing for standardized testing have the best of intentions: they want our children to be able to compete.

But this is the problem with calls for "performance pay" for teachers. How exactly are we to judge "performance?"

[AZhitman]

Not a fan of NCLB. Should have been suspicious when Democrats and Republicans were "working together" on that pile of fail.

Me neither. And it really has some negative impact in schools where there's a lot of ESL kids (and not just on the English-speakers, surprisingly).

[nissangirl74]

Does "teaching to the test" benefit our children at all or does it just create revenue for the school system? Seems like the stuff they need to know, or at least "I" think they should know, is no longer relevant. AND, it's a lot of the basics that are being left out. Yes Ray, it does make me angry. I think our kids are being short-changed in their education. I also think a lot of people that are in control of the curriculum (not the teachers) are making choices based on financial payoffs and not knowledge gained.

I don't think it's profit-driven.

These days, students’ scores on standardized statewide tests affect funding levels for individual schools as well as whether or not specific teachers will keep their jobs, researcher Susan McIntosh says.
http://www.mi-whinews.org/node/14914

Just one example. It is VERY much profit driven. If your students don't make the grade, you don't get as much money.

[bigbadberry3]

Just one example. It is VERY much profit driven. If your students don't make the grade, you don't get as much money.

NCLB is pretty bad. It started with good ideas but they just never seem to finalize themselves well.

For example, each year your school is supposed to improve test scores. Not improving test scores puts your school on probation. After several years of not improving, your school loses funding. And frequently that leads to no job at all and even schools closing placing burdens on other schools. It's a tough position when your career hangs on how well teenagers do on a given test and then at the same time your students well being.

Schools that are excellent, I'm talking can be competitive with colleges are failing NCLB because they started at a 99% rate because it's near impossible to get 100% on everything.

Don't you dare think that teachers aren't trying to help students but we can't just do as we please.

[nissangirl74]

Don't you dare think that teachers aren't trying to help students but we can't just do as we please.

I don't. I went to school with a lot of people who ended up in education and I've heard the horror stories about being stuck in very strict lesson plans that they can't alter.

[Dattebayo]

Honestly, what are we gaining in real-world usefulness by being able to recite the capitals of states?

[s0m3th1ngAZ]

Declining Education Quality + Reduced Research and Development Spending = A very dire future for this county.
Of course it's only natural to expect this what with our dominance in the 40's-90's. Our parents and their parents grew up in a world that was crappy...so they strove to make it better. My generation and our kids are growing up in a world that is pretty f*** great, and they just don't have that same fevered intensity to innovate.

[Bmore-coupe]

School breeds Pavlovian dogs who bark on command and wait patiently to be walked. Their leashes will give them comfort and doom us all.

/thread

I had to learn all of the states in alphabetical order when I was in elementary school...WTF are they teaching kids now? Oh wait....how to use google.

[nissangirl74]

Honestly, what are we gaining in real-world usefulness by being able to recite the capitals of states?

Boss: (calls Dave up on the phone) "Hey Dave, we have a job in Georgia that would be perfect for you. You even get some extra cash to cover your hotel and food costs while you are there."

Dave: "Cool, where is the job?"

Boss: "At the capital."

Dave: "Where's that?"

Boss: "you don't know what the capital city of Georgia is?"

Dave: "I didn't think it was important."

Boss: <Click>

[Jesda]

Honestly, what are we gaining in real-world usefulness by being able to recite the capitals of states?

I worked as a team lead for a wireless company about a decade ago. This girl was processing orders and packages kept getting returned because she didn't know her state abbreviations. I wasn't entirely sure how to make her understand that she didnt know her states and needed to look them up before casually putting "Springfield MR" as Springfield Missouri.

I left polite messages and notes and asked her to please double check, but it never sank in.

She had huge cans and last I heard she was looking haggard at only 27 and worked as a club promoter or something. I should dig through my photos when I get home (they are prints, old school) and see if I can find one of her. Did I mention she had huge cans?


The point is, basic geography is a good thing.

[Dattebayo]

Honestly, what are we gaining in real-world usefulness by being able to recite the capitals of states?

Boss: (calls Dave up on the phone) "Hey Dave, we have a job in Georgia that would be perfect for you. You even get some extra cash to cover your hotel and food costs while you are there."

Dave: "Cool, where is the job?"

Boss: "At the capital."

Dave: "Where's that?"

Boss: "you don't know what the capital city of Georgia is?"

Dave: "I didn't think it was important."

Boss: <Click>

The point is, basic geography is a good thing.

I can see where abbreviations are important, but reciting the capitals of states is the kind of repetitious nonsense learning that I don't think is all that important. I'm sure I'm gonna get flamed for it, but why do schools feel the need to fill children's heads with stuff they will most likely never need to use except for that one time when their boss tell them they're going to "the capital"? Writing skills are important, so is math. Geography has little impact in a society where we can look up the location of something on a map if we need to anytime.

I mean, for example, I don't know what the capitals of most countries overseas, or where they are located. I've never been there, and I probably won't know of any of it until I really need to go there, or until I get a wild hair to check it out on a map!

If you really needed to know where you were going, they would tell you the name of the city. Your job is what the real variable is here. Not everyone is going to need to know where a capital is to do the day's work. Hell, most people don't even control where they travel to in their work.

[Coupe12]

I dunno about anywhere else, but here teachers are payed according to the "growth" of their students throughout the year. Well, that means if you have an extremely smart class, you get crap pay because they are already in the top percentile. So if you have the slower class, your pay is more than likely better. Coming soon teachers here will be payed according to the child's grades in, not their class, but the entire curriculum. That means if you teach english, and they suck at math, your pay goes down

[hannibal]

Honestly, what are we gaining in real-world usefulness by being able to recite the capitals of states?

Boss: (calls Dave up on the phone) "Hey Dave, we have a job in Georgia that would be perfect for you. You even get some extra cash to cover your hotel and food costs while you are there."

Dave: "Cool, where is the job?"

Boss: "At the capital."

Dave: "Where's that?"

Boss: "you don't know what the capital city of Georgia is?"

Dave: "I didn't think it was important."

Boss: <Click>

It's not likely that you'll need to know the 2nd largest city in Montana is order to get a job or a promotion. But it can't hurt.

As for teaching for the test, teachers are measured on how their students perform on the tests. It destroys the incentive to teach creatively and forces them to focus on getting as many students to pass the test as possible. This adds so much pressure on the teacher AND the school and district administrators.

Look at the cheating scandal that erupted in Atlanta this week. Almost 180 teachers and administrations are being forced to quit as a result. I think it's naive to believe this has happened or isn't happening elsewhere in the country.

[szh]

Far more than the specifics (of knowing the capitals that is), it is the act of learning that is important!

Yeah, my son learned all the capitals of all the states, and all other countries too, at the age of 3 or 4, because we bought him a Leapfrog Explorer talking globe. He could find any state or country or capital in seconds - the globe had a timed game that made you look for them. It was education and learning and teaching ... disguised as fun!

Does he remember all of the capitals now at age 13? Of course not! But he remembers most of them, the relationship of the US states and countries to each other, and knows where to look quickly on the globe. He had no difficulty with his World History class last year and will have no difficulty with his US History class this year either!

The important point is that the learning experiences he went/goes through - at an age appropriate point - made/makes him understand how to learn and gain knowledge. This will be immensely helpful to him in later years when he is seeking jobs in an ever-increasingly competitive world.

Z

BTW, I think that Leapfrog has done an amazing job of providing "toys" that make learning fun! Well worth the relatively higher cost - parents with toddlers should consider them seriously. If price is an issue, look on eBay for them ... from people whose kids have outgrown theirs.

[AZhitman]

^ THIS.

And, to piggyback off something Dave said... I'm a real big advocate for more intensive instruction and demanding performance in reading comprehension, writing skills, and basic written communication. THAT is something I see as a critical weakness in the education system right now. The current attitude is dangerous and lazy: Spelling? No need, we have spell-check. Sentence structure? Bah, text-speak conveys our message well enough.

That's bad. Written (and to a lesser extent, verbal) communication is THE most valuable skill one can bring to the work force. Being able to write well opens a TON of doors.

If any of these kids had to pass a writing proficiency exam, they'd fall flat on their face. I went to a college that required graduates to pass a very stringent writing proficiency exam. They didn't care if you had a 4.0 GPA - if you can't write, you don't graduate.

Now, teaching kids abstract math seems to me like something we could certainly tone down, but that impacts our future when it comes time to look for scientists, engineers and statisticians.

All in all, I think this is the first generation that will be "dumber" than their parents. Hell, people my age (better yet, the current 30-50 crowd) are even more technologically adept than our kids. THAT is surprising to me.