Reading, 'Riting, and 'Rithmetic

[skydragoness]

Schools not teaching geography or about different cultures ties into my disgust for what's not taught and sugar coated in history classes.
"Lies My Teacher Told Me" is a great book (about American history textbooks and the blatant lies they contain).
I'm about 60% through it and it's very eye opening and nice to know that my skepticism as a kid in school was warranted.

Also this video is awesome. Mostly discusses how our old industrialization age model for education just doesn't work:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZFcDGpL4U[/youtube]

[hannibal]

I read an article that said the Generation Y (born mid 80's and later) will be the most highly educated workforce in American history. By that they mean higher percentages of high school, college, and grad school graduates. But the question that remains is whether these kids are truly learning anything. Sure, you can do an integral but can you find Afghanistan on a map or tell time on an analog clock??

My mom just retired after teaching high school life sciences for about 35 years. She says the hardest thing is trying to teach science to a kid who can barely read a sentence. But school administrators say you can't flunk a kid just because he doesn't read well. The teacher should find alternate ways to relay the material. I got an idea: Just get rid of all those useless words in textbooks and just fill it with pretty pictures. Yeah, that'll help build faith in future doctors and engineers.

[AZhitman]

...meanwhile, out of ALL the doctors my family deals with (10-12), all are foreign-born... 80% of our I.T. staff is foreign-born...

There's only one answer: Get tough and weed out the chaff. Some simply won't do well in school, and it's not the government's job to punish those who CAN excel for the sake of those who can't / won't.

We need laborers and we need brains. It's OUR ROLE to give kids the best education that they will accept / absorb, and let natural selection handle the rest.

[bigbadberry3]

So, is there anything you do like about the current education? And while you were discussing this, were you in your mind thinking about a public or private school or both? Just curious...

[hannibal]

I'm speaking about public schools cause I have very little exposure to private schools.

I do like the variety of classes offered. This allows kids to figure out what they like and what they wanna do. I can say that public schools serve the largest portion of kids well. Those who want to learn usually are able to learn as much as they can cram in. But it takes more outside motivation (from parents and of course the student themselves). Those who dont care can sit in class and absorb nothing. My concern is for the kids in the middle. The kids who arent the brightest in the class, but worked hard and take pride in that 3.0 average. I feel like they could achieve so much more (in high school and possibly college) if they had a little extra teacher time or after school tutoring. These are the kids I think are getting left behind.

[AZhitman]

So, is there anything you do like about the current education? And while you were discussing this, were you in your mind thinking about a public or private school or both? Just curious...

I was thinking of public schools, since I have no real experience with private schools. My kids attended charter school for several years, and are now in the public school system. In certain instances, they're being passed on to the next grade without having mastered some core competencies, which simply places them in a bad situation the following year. There's still a broad disparity in teaching styles and philosophy, which CAN be a good thing, but occasionally ISN'T.

As an example (one of many), my daughter had a math teacher who would not accept an incomplete assignment. She struggled with math, and would occasionally turn in a 3-page HW assignment with 52 of 60 questions answered. That got a zero. Or, she'd turn it in late (still struggling, despite my best efforts and sending her to tutoring). That, also, earned a zero.

When I finally confronted him (about her "F" in his class), he explained his philosophy. I said, "You're not here to teach her time management, punctuality, or thoroughness. You're here to teach her the principles and application of MATH, and you suck at it."

The following year, she made the Honor Roll and the Principal's List. She's bright, but she needed to be assessed on her grasp of the material, NOT the timeliness in which it's completed.

As far as what I'd like to see changed? I'd like to see some focus on real-world applications of knowledge: How to balance a bank account. How credit and interest works. How to write a complaint letter (or a letter of appreciation). How to audit a billing statement. How to draft a resume. How to document a sequence of events or write a technical "how-to" paper. How to determine / compare costs of items. Things that lay the groundwork for being a productive and functional member of society.

I'd also like to see greater opportunities to challenge and motivate students who show a propensity towards giftedness, rather than holding them back with their peers.

I'm not damning the educational system, but it's far, very far, from perfect.

[nissangirl74]

So, is there anything you do like about the current education? And while you were discussing this, were you in your mind thinking about a public or private school or both? Just curious...

It would be really awesome if the teachers in the public school system had as much flexibility with their lesson plans as parents who home school their children do. Even though I understand the social implications and behavior issues with (some) home schooled children, I think they do get a much more well-rounded education. While they still have to take tests to get a diploma from the state, the methods for teaching are more liberal and much more conducive to learning.

I also think it would be awesome to have more hands-on projects for students. There are a lot of people out there who learn much better by doing. In the current system, there isn't much opportunity for that, other than the occasional science experiment.

I don't think children should be passed on to the next grade if they did not master the material in their current one. My daughter should have repeated a grade but the school wouldn't hold her back and they said I couldn't hold her back. It was school policy. She was a certain age and children of that age belonged in a certain grade. She has paid for it ever since.

Just my .02.


I don't have any experience with private schools.

[Bubba1]

I read an article that said the Generation Y (born mid 80's and later) will be the most highly educated workforce in American history. By that they mean higher percentages of high school, college, and grad school graduates. But the question that remains is whether these kids are truly learning anything. Sure, you can do an integral but can you find Afghanistan on a map or tell time on an analog clock??

My mom just retired after teaching high school life sciences for about 35 years. She says the hardest thing is trying to teach science to a kid who can barely read a sentence. But school administrators say you can't flunk a kid just because he doesn't read well. The teacher should find alternate ways to relay the material. I got an idea: Just get rid of all those useless words in textbooks and just fill it with pretty pictures. Yeah, that'll help build faith in future doctors and engineers.

Being the "most educated" generation label loses much of it's lustre when the standards are dumbed down in order to accomplish it.

[Encryptshun]

As far as what I'd like to see changed? I'd like to see some focus on real-world applications of knowledge: How to balance a bank account. How credit and interest works. How to write a complaint letter (or a letter of appreciation). How to audit a billing statement. How to draft a resume. How to document a sequence of events or write a technical "how-to" paper. How to determine / compare costs of items. Things that lay the groundwork for being a productive and functional member of society.

I'd also like to see greater opportunities to challenge and motivate students who show a propensity towards giftedness, rather than holding them back with their peers.

I'm not damning the educational system, but it's far, very far, from perfect.

Yes, Yes, and YES.

Mine was the last class to be "tracked" through grade and middle school. Missouri state board of education did away with tracking in favor of mainstreaming. My class was the first to be questioned regarding the existance of a gifted program. Three years later they did away with it (because certain kids getting to go to gifted class made the other parents feel like their own kids weren't special).

I LOATHE how our modern education system has tried to force all kids to learn the same way at the same rate with the same amount of individual attention. Studies have shown time and time again that if you segregate kids just for reading and math when they are in grades 1 - 4 you will vastly narrow the gap between skill level by the time any of them hit grade 5. But school systems don't do that.

[IBCoupe]

I don't think it's profit-driven.

These days, students’ scores on standardized statewide tests affect funding levels for individual schools as well as whether or not specific teachers will keep their jobs, researcher Susan McIntosh says.
http://www.mi-whinews.org/node/14914

Just one example. It is VERY much profit driven. If your students don't make the grade, you don't get as much money.

I understand that, Bex, but I don't assign an ulterior motive. I think it's possible to assign funding on the basis of test scores in a good faith attempt to improve education. I don't think it helps, but I accept that some people do.

[IBCoupe]

As far as what I'd like to see changed? I'd like to see some focus on real-world applications of knowledge: How to balance a bank account. How credit and interest works. How to write a complaint letter (or a letter of appreciation). How to audit a billing statement. How to draft a resume. How to document a sequence of events or write a technical "how-to" paper. How to determine / compare costs of items. Things that lay the groundwork for being a productive and functional member of society.

I'd also like to see greater opportunities to challenge and motivate students who show a propensity towards giftedness, rather than holding them back with their peers.

I'm not damning the educational system, but it's far, very far, from perfect.

Yes, Yes, and YES.

Mine was the last class to be "tracked" through grade and middle school. Missouri state board of education did away with tracking in favor of mainstreaming. My class was the first to be questioned regarding the existance of a gifted program. Three years later they did away with it (because certain kids getting to go to gifted class made the other parents feel like their own kids weren't special).

I LOATHE how our modern education system has tried to force all kids to learn the same way at the same rate with the same amount of individual attention. Studies have shown time and time again that if you segregate kids just for reading and math when they are in grades 1 - 4 you will vastly narrow the gap between skill level by the time any of them hit grade 5. But school systems don't do that.

One solution I've mused about is the elimination of age-based advancement, and the separation of grade-level from class-level. In seventh grade, you took basic math, pre-algebra, algebra, or calculus in my middle school. I was in the Algebra class. But as we progressed, eventually that bottom tier dropped off. And advancement to the next grade seemed mostly perfunctory - if you lived to see the next year, you lived to see the next grade.

Now, I think it's perfectly foreseeable that a kid who's proficient in English might just be really crappy at Math. I think you should pass each level of education independently of how old you are, and independently of how you're doing in the other subject matter.

[nissangirl74]

I know. I wish things were different but wishing gets you nowhere and often just holds you back. God, I sound so old. Is it really so bad that I wish my kids were getting a well-rounded education instead of spending their whole educational existence prepping for a test?

[dre1507]

I can speak for where i come from. Once a school does poorly on the FCAT, it can expect to continue doing so for another few years, because after that school year, the higher paid educators will be forced to resign or take significant pay cuts....a good amount will resign. Leaving mostly the "i'm just here to be here" type of educators. The FCAT is just there to see which schools get money for the next year and which ones don't. sad.

[nissangirl74]

http://www.thenotebook.org/blog/113913/ ... ng-teacher

This is a long article but a fascinating read. The teacher in question was helping her students cheat on the assessment exams, supposedly so her kids wouldn't feel like failures. Those in administration are making it very difficult for teachers to teach effectively and they create a hostile environment non-conducive to learning for the students. It's a shame.

[AZhitman]

One solution I've mused about is the elimination of age-based advancement, and the separation of grade-level from class-level. In seventh grade, you took basic math, pre-algebra, algebra, or calculus in my middle school. I was in the Algebra class. But as we progressed, eventually that bottom tier dropped off. And advancement to the next grade seemed mostly perfunctory - if you lived to see the next year, you lived to see the next grade.

Now, I think it's perfectly foreseeable that a kid who's proficient in English might just be really crappy at Math. I think you should pass each level of education independently of how old you are, and independently of how you're doing in the other subject matter.

And we've GOT to address the 800-lb gorilla: Some kids simply will not progress like others. No matter how much we wring our hands about "fairness", no matter how much we "want the best for our kids", no matter how involved the parents are, no matter whether it's simply a lazy, unmotivated kid or a kid whose environmental and genetic conditions have conspired against them, we HAVE to accept that we can't "save" everyone, and holding the hotshots back while the laggards catch up doesn't serve EITHER group well.

In this regard, I fear some of the Asian cultural attitudes towards education have us soundly beat.

[C-Kwik]

I know. I wish things were different but wishing gets you nowhere and often just holds you back. God, I sound so old. Is it really so bad that I wish my kids were getting a well-rounded education instead of spending their whole educational existence prepping for a test?

Its not even just the diversity of material that is an issue but also the lack of teaching the hows and whys of material that is severely lacking these days. I tutor my neighbor's kid when he needs help with his math assignments. I'm amazed that he wasn't taught many of the proofs and concepts of how the math works. He was taught the shortcuts. That might be fine if he intended to remain at that level as it can be effective at getting them through the standardized testing, but since they require higher levels of math to graduate, he keeps falling behind as he has no foundation to build new material on. He's not a math whiz by any means, but hes been able to hang with the things I've taught him, so he is certainly capable. There is just too much to have to catch up on. I've recommended to his parents that they enroll him in tutoring to go back and relearn the basics and/or use community college courses for the remedial material. My sister, who is a high school math teacher, pretty much confirmed this tends to happen a lot due to NCLB.

And we've GOT to address the 800-lb gorilla: Some kids simply will not progress like others. No matter how much we wring our hands about "fairness", no matter how much we "want the best for our kids", no matter how involved the parents are, no matter whether it's simply a lazy, unmotivated kid or a kid whose environmental and genetic conditions have conspired against them, we HAVE to accept that we can't "save" everyone, and holding the hotshots back while the laggards catch up doesn't serve EITHER group well.

Can we save everyone? Nope. But we can address the poor methodology that is created by NCLB. We can address the inequities of funding and resources that exist between schools, which are at least partly caused by NCLB and tend to be drawn along socioeconomic lines. We can help the "hotshots" get access to programs that accelerate their learning without relegating students on a slower pace to "just get them passed the test" classes. Not really arguing with you Greg as I'm sure you aren't suggesting this is the solution. But I didn't want it left with the implication that it is as that's how I read it.

I wish I could find an article I read a while back about a school district somewhere on the east coast that has had remarkable success with moving principals who perform very well to schools that perform poorly. IIRC, they were allowed to bring a certain number of teachers with them and all were financially rewarded for making the move. If it indeed works as well as the article stated, we should be seeking to implement it or something similar more broadly. It simply makes a lot of sense in my mind as well. Teachers and principles are given incentive to perform well at schools they are at in order to to be considered.

There was also another article I read that stated that results in schools tended to be tied more to the resources available to students rather than their socioeconomic demographics. If both these articles are accurate, NCLB tends to work against our goals.

[Encryptshun]

On average, state spending on prisons has increased at six TIMES the rate of spending on education, yet there is incontrivertable proof that there is a causal connection between increased education and decreased liklihood to commit a crime.

We have shifted culturally away from viewing the penal system as a rehabilitative mechanism and now view it as a purely punative. Because of this, coupled with our absurd sentencing record for non-violent drug offenses, it's a drain on budgets that could otherwise be used to fund scholastic programs and extracurriculars (key to keeping students engaged in their school rather than their gang).

The root of this whole issue is money. Because school districts are so strapped for cash, the standards set are done so with a slanted focus on proving educational ROI (which is why they have no choice but to push these test scores in order to show "progress"). I see the same thing in my corporate job -- lack of budget means appealing to the lowest common denominator in order to show positive results on some metric. Totally backward when your objective is to change culture and provide value.

[MinisterofDOOM]

I did not read any of the thread after the OP. My opinion of public education as it is and as it should be has always been the same, and always been simple:

Rote memorization is pointless.
Teaching people "facts" is pointless. "Facts" are no good out of context, and context disappears outside of school for the majority of those facts.

What we need to teach is HOW TO LEARN. How to take what you are given and make something with it. How to seek answers for yourself. How to proceed when you don't know how to proceed. How not to be completely helpless all the time without someone there to hold your hand.

As performance enthusiasts on an automotive website, most of us are of the "do it yourself" variety (and not the modern "DIY" that means hippie housewives painting a wall all on their own). But it's astounding how many HELPLESS people there are out there, who can't do anything without instruction. They have no ability for trial and error, no capacity for figuring things out on their own. Because all of them went through the public education system which expounds: "Memorize, memorize, memorize, recite, and for Hell's sake don't think outside the box because that won't be on The Test and you'd only be wasting everyone's time."

I've said a thousand times and I'll say again:
The VAST majority of important knowledge I've leared I learned OF MY OWN ACCORD, independent of my official schooling.

[AZhitman]

Agreed 100% on the last 3 posts.

Chano, I concur that NCLB is, despite some good, an overall bust.

[MinisterofDOOM]

My mom works for an elementary school (not a teacher) and has nothing good to say about NCLB.

[Jesda]

NCLB is what happens when the two major parties come together and agree on something.

Be wary of bipartisanship. The result is seldom good for anyone.

[bigbadberry3]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43970084/ns ... education/

Fighting within the system.