Rb Propane setup ?

[rb25drag]

I was at my local machine shop this weekend picking up my 383 stroker motor and my machinist is talking about building propane turbo charged 2300 series car. Basically he explained it to me that propane is = to 110 Octain fuel and rund extremely clean. He says its a simple hookup and you can make alot of power out of it. The cost is around 500 for the hook up not counting the tank.

My question is has anyone attempted on a Rb

Also would this not rule out of a 1500$ PFC commander for tuning and the needs of upgraded throttle bodies and intakes along with injectors? Thats around 2000$ + saved. Or at least this is how he explained it to me. What do you guys think?

[StricNyne]

iirc propane = n02 on a diesel probally safer to run alky for same effect

[Joe]

propane goes in diesels.

you want some cheater power run alcohol injection.

[240z4u]

Turbo buick guys used to do propane injection when I had mine, which was about 5 years ago.

Most have now moved onto alky injection. I assume this is for a reason!

Evan

[Darius]

If you decided to go with propane injection, you may not need larger fuel injectors or to change that particular setting in the ECU, but you still need to have the ability to tune the AFRs properly. So, you will need some form of stand alone ECU. And if you go with alcohol injection, it all depends on your setup, but the stand alone ECU is always necessary.

[rb25drag]

Well This guy is experimenting with this 2300 series 4cl motor. Apparently he has built a proto type head and is making a 9 second propane turbo charged car. So he seems to know his stuff with the propane, He says a 10lb botttle is = to 26 gallons of fuel.

Im taking the Rb to him in a few weeks when I get my engine back in the car, were going to fabricate the Propane injection carb to fit the RB intake and experiment with it. Just wanted to see if any one has every tried it? Ill keep you guys posted on how it goes.

[mello88]

Is he talking about a total propane (aka LPG) conversion? If so, that would be pretty cool & I'd love to see someone do it on an RB. It could also have interesting smog implications, since around here I believe non-gasoline vehicles can be smog exempted especially for exotic fuels like LPG.

I don't know how much energy propane contains, but I would guess it's similar to e85 in that you need more of it to achieve the same power as you would with gasoline. That would mean you'd probably need larger injectors and you'll definitely need some way to tune it all. So don't take a PFC (or stand alone) off your list just yet.

My family used to have a 197x Ford LTD Landau that had a dual LPG and gasoline fuel system. It could run on either and be switched over on the fly with a switch on the dash. I thought it was pretty cool at the time... It burns clean and makes good power, I've always wondered how it would work in a performance application...

Do it

[rb25drag]

Ya he is talking about a complete switch to propane. So that will eliminate the need of injectors, MAFS, and FPR, Walbro fuel pump, Throttle body, and from how he explained it I will not need the power Fc, He says they eliminate the knock sensor and set the timing to a solid number and tune to that with the propane. So Stock ECU should be fine!

He says propane is = to 110 octain of race gas so it should make alot more power over pump gas!

I talked to him today were going to start putting it together in a month. So I will get pictures and dyno numbers when were done! Im thinking this will eliminate alot of problems and alot of money from the RB.

[BoostFab]

pick up trucks fleet at our work place are all converted from gasoline to propane. you can do it, but propane doesn't put out as much power as gasoline, so you'll have to burn more, lower torque, but the turbo will compensate for the lack of torque.

here's some q&a's http://www.npga.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=623

[rb25drag]

All of those facts sound good except the price. Im sure if you Have a Top of the Line shop install the equipment it could cost 2500$ But my install is looking to be around 500-900$.

I seen a twin turbo small block station wagon running off propane at my local drag strip this past year that left the line HARD!! on the back wheels so Im thinking the torque can't be effected alot.

To me it should have better throttle response due to not having the lag of the injectors holding you back. The instant that throttle is cracked you should have power!

[BoostFab]

this is another great read i suggesthttp://auto.howstuffworks.com/lpg.htmhttp://auto.howstuffworks.com/lpg5.htm

[BoostFab]

All of those facts sound good except the price. Im sure if you Have a Top of the Line shop install the equipment it could cost 2500$ But my install is looking to be around 500-900$.

I seen a twin turbo small block station wagon running off propane at my local drag strip this past year that left the line HARD!! on the back wheels so Im thinking the torque can't be effected alot.

To me it should have better throttle response due to not having the lag of the injectors holding you back. The instant that throttle is cracked you should have power!

obviously the the twin turbo help produce that torque. i drove one that is propane powered that is all motor, on take off from a stop, torque isn't the same as gas powered, but it's not intolerable.

[Bwana]

He says propane is = to 110 octain of race gas so it should make alot more power over pump gas!

Comparing propane to gasoline isn't apples to apples. Propane is a very simple hydrocarbon, especially compared to gasoline. It burns quickly and cleanly but does not contain nearly as much energy molecule to molecule as gasoline. It allows you to run more timing/boost without detonation but does require a comparatively large amount of fuel to do so.

It's not necessarily better or worse (though that could depend on application) but the engine will definitely need to be purpose built from the bottom up for propane if you want to experience satisfactory results.

[rb25drag]

It's not necessarily better or worse (though that could depend on application) but the engine will definitely need to be purpose built from the bottom up for propane if you want to experience satisfactory results.

Well im built with forged internals so No worries about blowing anything.

It will be interesting with the results.

I just wonder if anyone else has experimented this with the RB or if this will be the first test?

[silviasgp06]

well please go through with this, take lots of notes so those of us who are daily drving our RBs in 5ish years will have an option when emision laws get strict as hell.

im not saying its something ide do but this is how the world is turning and LPH would be a way to still street out cars.

but one thing i think is a bad thing about the on TB injected set up is the AFR tunning, i feel one regulated injector per cylinder is best if you plan on actual making reliable high power levels, but then again i dont know jack when it comes to how LP performs.

[Sil240]

So your doing a Carburated (ewwwww) Propane setup??????Hmmm.... if your looking to save money or max perfomance, go a little bit more on the beaten path.If your looking to be different, then thats effin cool.

So a Propane carb RB25.......There goes your ECU, and all the sensors, Tbody, injectors, Intake manifold. Or you could make a adapter plate to bolt on a big side draft blow through carb. 6 side draft carbs with a air box/mainfold would be sexy though....Well actually no you ECU can't go away, unless you get a stand alone or some kind of Distributor setup. Or have the ECU chipped to only run Spark. If your motor is built, I think you'd make more power with a regular setup.PFC or Chipped ECU (Cheaper) and bigger injectors.

But with all of that, it puts you back into the driveability of the 60's. Crappy cold starts, change in pressure, humidity.Plus with the added PITA of the black art of tuning carbs. Especially since most people aren't tuning Propane Carbs.

I personally think if you want Propane, just do add on Propane injection. So after the race you can hook your car up to the grill and make some burgers!!!!!

If you really want torque, go get one of those RD28ET's with Propane injection.

[gawdzilla]

Well im built with forged internals so No worries about blowing anything.

i like how you think forged internals means made of magic fairy dust and completely indestructable

[rb25drag]

i like how you think forged internals means made of magic fairy dust and completely indestructable

Not indestructable but alot safer from breaking parts when experimenting.

So your doing a Carburated (ewwwww) Propane setup??????QUOTE]

This is not a carb injection. They are now making actual throttle bodies. This is going to take the place of the original RB throttle body.

If your looking to be different, then thats effin cool.

Yes I like being alot different. I never take the same road as anyone else.

So a Propane carb RB25.......There goes your ECU, and all the sensors, Tbody, injectors, Intake manifold. Or you could make a adapter plate to bolt on a big side draft blow through carb. 6 side draft carbs with a air box/mainfold would be sexy though....Well actually no you ECU can't go away, unless you get a stand alone or some kind of Distributor setup. Or have the ECU chipped to only run Spark. If your motor is built, I think you'd make more power with a regular setup.PFC or Chipped ECU (Cheaper) and bigger injectors.

My plan is to get rid of all that B.S, All of that crap cost a stupid amount of money and if it can be deleted its going to be. I like a simple setup, Rb's are made like a woman and I plan on building a man! Simple and to the point.

But with all of that, it puts you back into the driveability of the 60's. Crappy cold starts, change in pressure, humidity.Plus with the added PITA of the black art of tuning carbs. Especially since most people aren't tuning Propane Carbs.

I personally think if you want Propane, just do add on Propane injection. So after the race you can hook your car up to the grill and make some burgers!!!!!

If you really want torque, go get one of those RD28ET's with Propane injection.

Actually with Propane you don't have the cold run 2,000RPM to warm up starts and if you decided to store your propane car for lets say 5 years. There is no need to drain all the gas and B.S all you do is close the tank valve. Come back in 5 years crack open the valve start it up and Drive home. Simple nothing to it, To me thats not old school 60's because back in the 60's you had to vacuum secondary carbs that took FOREVER to warm up.

If I loose a little power on the fuel thats ok, Because from the money Im going to save from not having to buy all that ECU crap and injectors ill be able to buy a bigger turbo to make up for the lack of power.

Propane isnt something people are use to and its different. Thats why, mine is soon going to be the 1st that I know of.

[rb25drag]

After a little research this is what I found about Propane:

Propane is a by-product of the refining process of natural gas and crude oil. About 3% of a barrel of oil becomes propane. Propane boils at -44 degrees Fahrenheit; when it is vaporized, it becomes a gas again. Because it vaporizes at such a low temperature, it mixes easily with air. Therefore, it doesn't require a high temperature (over 400 degrees Fahrenheit for gasoline) for it to atomize. This improves cold starts, emissions, and driveability. Propane is a stable fuel; it doesn't go bad if you don't use it!

Since propane has such a low carbon content, motor oil never gets dirty which increases engine life. The oil does still need to be changed, though not as often. Spark plug life is dramatically extended. Also, you cannot "flood" a propane engine. When a gasoline engine "floods," raw fuel enters the cylinders, washing past the rings and into the oil, also wetting the plugs. Propane carburetion automatically compensates for altitude changes, saving carb re-jetting and computer re-learn.

Since propane is under pressure, there are no fuel pumps, no float bowl, or needle and seat. Another plus is the high octane rating of propane between 100 and 110. This means that if you are turbocharging or supercharging, it is the ideal fuel.The propane system is sealed to the elements so that even complete submersion will not allow water into the fuel system.

Propane is available throughout the world.It is all the same fuel and the fittings are standardized. Your local propane dealer will usually cut you a break when buying motorfuel.Propane:

Will not go bad Burns clean Requires no maintenance Is easy to install Is very safe Rates at 100-110 octane Automatically compensates for altitude Prolongs engine life Is affordable No loss of power with any of our kits (these are performance kits) No wiring except the on/off solenoid. Propane is not harmful to soil or water

[rb25drag]

just as an update to those who are waiting the results of the propane, I have not gave up. I have ran into a hand full of problems since posting this which has delayed the setup. But I am Still Switching, It will be A full winter project as Im going to a Bigger turbo also so I can get some real numbers to you guys.

Just as a side note, The guy im working with on the setup just setup a s-10 with a 383 stroker motor with a Small twin turbo setup. The guy put it on the Dyno with only 12lbs of boost on 93 octain he made 633WHP, We switched to Propane and same setup he made 618WHP, We added 3 degree's of timing and made 634WHP, So we were able to make up the difference in the fuel by just adding 3 degree's of timing. So Im hoping for really good results on the RB switch.

Ill be sure to get pics and Video updates once I start. Just gotta get all my ducks in a Row.

[m tr4nch]

sounds like an awesome project, keep us updated!

[Darkman6909]

HEY! will this propane setup pass smog testing if it does i will kiss my gas setup goodbye! just for a day Then go straight back to gas until next smog test

[rb25drag]

I honestly don't know. I don't have smog tests here were I live. It will cost you about 800$ to switch to propane.

[Darkman6909]

where do you live?

[dwnshfter]

wow, just saw this and good luck, i am interested in it as well!

[rb25drag]

I live in SpringCity Tennessee, im real Close to Knoxville Tn.

Thanks!! We will see how it all turns out this winter if I don't sell my car first. money is getting tight with all this gas B.S and stuff. My pay sure isnt going up any.

But If I keep the car its def going to propane!!

[240z4u]

I gotta say man, your economics of scale is odd to me. I absolutely cannot understand how pulling an entire WORKING efi system to swap with some sort of standalone? will be cheaper.

Are you going to use a single fogger or something? Gross! No way in hell I would use a TBI system for anything! Forward facing manifolds are already known for oddball air distribution under boost let alone with the air carrying the fuel.

Darkman, your a fool if you think a "quick swap of efi" for an emissions test is needed. I passed tailpipe test with a cat and a stock tune.

Evan

[rb25drag]

I dont have a FWD facing manifold. I got the Stock manifold and throttle body, All im doing is adding a Propane regulator onto the Intercooler piping side in front of the Throttle body to inject the propane threw the intake. lts hard for me to Explain exactly how it all works without showing you pics of it all.

It is gonna be cheaper for me once done b/c the amount of power I can make with this system is endless and also tuning is a Breeze compared to tuning with gas. For a complete working Propane unit its gonna cost me 800$ to switch.

im at the point were if I wanna make any more power on my setup I need Injectors, ECU, Better Fuel pump, ETC were all that combined is good for over 2000$ worth, Which is too expensive for my liking.

Also the Propane will eliminate The injector, MAF, Fuel pump, FPR, ETC which is alot of $$

but like I say its still in the working. Not sure exactly how everything is going to come out. But I do have the equipment of making over 600HP So if the Propane is good enough I should make some good power when done.

[240z4u]

How is the regulator controlled I guess is what I was asking? Throttle position? or what?

Evan

[rb25drag]

It works off vacuum, The more it pulls the more fuel it adds.