Rating Suspension Mods

[Peterofdevon]

Many G50 owners have modded their suspensions.

Lets have a thread rating the efficacy of the mods. Here's an initial list:

FSTBTokiko BluesSway barsadjustable multilinksbushings???

On my Qs the Tokikos make the most profound difference followed by the FSTB and rear sway bar---laugh...its all I've done so what do I know!

Would it be a good idea to create a list and and have a rating vote say 1 to 5 for each mod? Is this a good idea at all? Perhaps I need to get a life.

Peter

[elwesso]

Many G50 owners have modded their suspensions.

Lets have a thread rating the efficacy of the mods. Here's an initial list:

FSTBTokiko BluesSway barsadjustable multilinksbushings???

On my Qs the Tokikos make the most profound difference followed by the FSTB and rear sway bar---laugh...its all I've done so what do I know!

Would it be a good idea to create a list and and have a rating vote say 1 to 5 for each mod? Is this a good idea at all? Perhaps I need to get a life.

Peter

Ok Peter I'll play your games!

It all depends what approach you want to go.... I have 2 approaches in mind...

Simple---> Complex

1. Tokico Blues2. FSTB 3. Bushings4. Sway bars5. Links

If you want to go in order of what does the most for your handling, then we'll go this way...

1. Tokico Blues- THIS ASSUMES YOU'RE REPLACING WORN OUT FACTORY STRUTS WITH THE BLUES

2. Sway bars- These really are the only things that will change the handling DYNAMICS of the vehicle!

3. Links- The adjustability helps to get your alignment perfect. They also make the car feel ROCK SOLIDa. Remember if you want to use the SPL upper links you have to use the solid tension rods too or you'll wear the bearings out.....b. The tension by far give you the most added harshness. Ideally youd like to find an adjustable tension rod with a non-liquid filled rubber bushing. Its not a huge increase in harshness,maybe 15% more, you can make it close to OEM by playing with tire pressures.

4. Bushings- Even new OEM bushings make a huge difference.... I like my poly bushigns in the rear.

5. FSTB- Doesnt really help handling a ton, but makes the car feel real solid.

[Q45tech]

Since tires are 90% of equation.....................................dividing the other 10% into neat little parcels is beyond difficult.................when if the suspension is newish then you are down to 5%

If a driver goes to a real racing school for a few weeks of intensive one on one training he can beat the typical owner even with all the shocks removed -----------assumming superior tires and skills.

Comparing brand new stiff Blues to worn out blacks is hardly FAIR or instructive.Comparing worn out suspension components to new adjustable or solid bushing again is confusing.

A Q with ALL NEW OEM components was a very decent vehicle for its tires.

Many things affect the FEEL in a positive way without increasing the mathematical measured numbers very much....................after all it's when one backs off that counts.

[maxnix]

1.) a.) As new OEM suspension wear parts, or see Wes' suspension. b.) Tokico blues if the blacks are worn

2.) Tires, which presently begets wheels (lightest and strongest).

3.) Stillen brembo rotors with OEM pads, or upgrade (not harder pads and Chinese rotors)

4.) a model rear bar

5.) FSTB from Jeff Williams

6.) Front a or t model bar

[StarPD]

FWIW, my new to me 2005 Q45 corners a LOT flatter than my old '94 Q45t with new OEM shocks and bushings, stock BBS "lace" wheels and Yoko AVS-DB II new tires.

The 2005 does have 20" wheels and 245/35 tires, which I'm changing to 18x8 chrome TSWs with Potenza RE050A "Pole Position" tires, so it remains to be seen if it will still lay as flat in corners. Perhaps the semi-active shocks on the F50 contribute to the flat cornering, even on the "Auto" setting.

I sure wish someone made a Rear sway bar for the F50.

[Peterofdevon]

I left out tires...dol

In high end audio we have a saying that retipping a moving coil phono cartridge is like putting new wheels and tires on an older car.

The difference between the one Q with all season 225 65 15s and the other with 245 45 17 performance summer tires is astronomic (I think thats the first time I ever wrote that word).

P.

[StarPD]

No doubt. But the fact remains that the F50 has far less body roll on corners, and I suspect less suspension deflection and resultant tire geometry change. Note that my '94 G50 also had a Stillen FSTB, but then, my new F50 has one from the factory.

I think that if you're postulating that my '94 would corner flatter or as flat as my new F50 if it had 20" wheels and appropriate tires, you are not entirely correct. Reduced vehicle weight, suspension improvements and other factors still put the F50 ahead of the G50 in the handling department.The F50 still understeers more than the G50, but eventually, I hope to find a solution to that, aside from staggering wheel/tire sizes and tire pressure settings (which don't help enough, I tried that). As I've stated so many times in this forum, I wish someone made a rear sway bar for the F50. I think that would solve the problem, and put the F50 in a dominant position as a better handler all the way around.

All that being said, there can be no argument that wheels/tires can make a marked improvement in any car's handling. I'm hoping that the new wheels/tires I have on order will provide, at least for me, an optimum ride vs handling compromise. Time will tell. I'll provide a full report here in this forum as soon as I have enough experience with them to give me a solid basis for my impressions.

In the meantime, if anyone has made relatively simple and reasonably inexpensive suspension mods to an F50, aside from lowering or changing shocks, I'd sure like to hear about it. I'm thinking along the line of different bushings etc., and perhaps minor adjustments to the steering system.

Come on guys, don't relegate the F50 to the status of redheaded stepchild simply because there weren't as many built and sold as the G50. They ARE, after all, Q45s too.

[maxnix]

suspension improvements and other factors still put the F50 ahead of the G50 in the handling department.

While the rear suspensions are quite similar, the FY33, Y34 and F50 have the same MacPherson Strut design, really quite common and not in the same league as the G50 sophisticated multilink. Haven't really cornered an F50 hard, but I will say the 2000 FGY33 does have more roll resistance than the G50. This does not necessarily mean the constant radius skidpad g forces are higher, as that is more related to weight, and the F50 is not much lighter than a G50, if any at all. Lots of goodies in the later cars weigh a lot when added together.

Pretty sure the F50 has a rear anti-sway bar and probably a rear strut brace.

[Q45man1]

Yeah I wish there is a thicker rear sway bar available for the F50. I just have a minor change in the suspension by installing a lowering springs and stayed with the factory shocks. In the handling department, cornering improves a lot but the steering response needs improvement. My F50 still feels disconnected and the steering feels numb. My G50 steering response is more responsive and connected.

[elwesso]

it just makes you feel more confident... REMEMBER that the G50s suspension setup would be different if it had 17 or 18in wheels vs the 15s... It would need much less camber gain to maintain an ideal contact patch.

Still, its neither here nor there... however, I think stock vs stock on the same tires the G50 would outhandle a F50.

[StarPD]

Maxnix wrote:

While the rear suspensions are quite similar, the FY33, Y34 and F50 have the same MacPherson Strut design, really quite common and not in the same league as the G50 sophisticated multilink. Haven't really cornered an F50 hard, but I will say the 2000 FGY33 does have more roll resistance than the G50. This does not necessarily mean the constant radius skidpad g forces are higher, as that is more related to weight, and the F50 is not much lighter than a G50, if any at all. Lots of goodies in the later cars weigh a lot when added together.

Pretty sure the F50 has a rear anti-sway bar and probably a rear strut brace.

Interesting. I haven't been under my 2005 Q45 yet, but I wasn't aware that it has a rear sway bar, and possibly even a rear strut brace. I'll have to check that out. If that's the case, I suspect that there's something I can do to replace or stiffen the sway bar to reduce the only thing I don't like about the car: understeer.

As for weight, as best I can recall, a '94 Q45t for example, had a curb weight of 4250#, while the 2005 Q45 is 4050#. I also understand that the 2005, and probably other F50s have aluminum hoods and trunk lids. That may be where the weight difference is, and being up high, would help with cg, also contributing even more to the flatter cornering.

Wheel and tire characteristics can have varying and sometimes unexpected effects on chassis dynamics, so I'll have to wait until after I get the current 20" wheels and Sumitomo tires replaced with 18" wheels and RE050A "Pole Position" tires to fairly evaluate handling. I'm hoping that it will improve the handling balance, reducing the understeer. If not, I'll have to pursue that issue. I prefer neutral steering, with some power induced oversteer available for the really fast corners. Too much inherent understeer however results in abrupt transitions that end up in losing control, not a good thing.

I will, of course, report on my findings and observations.

Thanks for the info. It helps.

[StarPD]

Yeah I wish there is a thicker rear sway bar available for the F50. I just have a minor change in the suspension by installing a lowering springs and stayed with the factory shocks. In the handling department, cornering improves a lot but the steering response needs improvement. My F50 still feels disconnected and the steering feels numb. My G50 steering response is more responsive and connected.

I agree about the steering, and even asked somewhere if anyone has any suggestions to tighten up the steering and make it a little more responsive and provide a little more feel. I think this may be another area where tires can help. I'm counting on that with the new wheels/tires I have on order. I'd still like to pursue other means too though.

If anyone has any knowledge of bushings or other bolt-on or simple changes that can be addressed on an F50 to improve steering feel (without making it drive like a truck), I think some of us might appreciate it. I know I sure would, and I suspect that at least Q45man1 would too.

[Blamecanada999]

I don't have much to add to the topic, besides the statement that I'm very unhappy with my Tokico Blues. One of my front struts went, and it was cheaper to put 2 Blues up front rather than replace the one broken strut with OEM parts. Since their installation, ride quality has suffered greatly. My Q rides like a truck. It's to the point where I fear it's having adverse effects on other components of my suspension. I'm sure if I were to install other performance mods, the Blues would come into their own. I don't have any desire to though. The G50 is a luxury car, and that's all I want out of it. There isn't any real discernable difference in handling either, meaning the cons definitely outweigh the pros.

[StarPD]

it just makes you feel more confident... REMEMBER that the G50s suspension setup would be different if it had 17 or 18in wheels vs the 15s... It would need much less camber gain to maintain an ideal contact patch.

Still, its neither here nor there... however, I think stock vs stock on the same tires the G50 would outhandle a F50.

Even with the 200# weight difference and lower cg?

[elwesso]

I don't have much to add to the topic, besides the statement that I'm very unhappy with my Tokico Blues. One of my front struts went, and it was cheaper to put 2 Blues up front rather than replace the one broken strut with OEM parts. Since their installation, ride quality has suffered greatly. My Q rides like a truck. It's to the point where I fear it's having adverse effects on other components of my suspension. I'm sure if I were to install other performance mods, the Blues would come into their own. I don't have any desire to though. The G50 is a luxury car, and that's all I want out of it. There isn't any real discernable difference in handling either, meaning the cons definitely outweigh the pros.

Wow your suspension must have been shot... Seriously, give them a few months to break in.. They will get much smoother once summer rolls around, trust me. The first few months with the blues is quite different especially if you're used to a worn out suspension.

I had 4 worn out shocks on my Q (they were originals at 120k miles) and i replaced all 4 at the same time with blues, it was amazing..... It definitely rode firmer but i didnt feel like i lost any ride quality.... I wonder if part of your problem is worn out rear shocks?

Even with the 200# weight difference and lower cg?

Honestly, 200lbs is not that much of a difference on a heavy car, its like having a 1/4 full tank vs a full tank... I think the weight difference is probably closer to 100lbs, but we'll call it 200 for arguements sake..

What makes you think the F50 has a lower center of gravity? Not asking to be an arse, just questioning your source. I woudl think that even if the CG was slightly different, that it cant make that big of a difference....

All the difference is in the shocks and springs. McPhearson strut setups work great on cars with low profile tires because they dont require as much camber gain, which is very characteristic of Mcphearson struts.

[Blamecanada999]

I wonder if part of your problem is worn out rear shocks?

Perhaps. Frost heaves are the norm here; and when driving on bumpy roads, I can get some pretty bad bump noises from the back end. I assumed the stiffer setup up front changed the suspension dynamics and the OEM rear shocks were having a hard time coping. Maybe it's time to replace the rears too. Looks like I may have another Spring project. I'll have my mech check everything out back when I get it inspected next week.

[maxnix]

I don't have much to add to the topic, besides the statement that I'm very unhappy with my Tokico Blues. One of my front struts went, and it was cheaper to put 2 Blues up front rather than replace the one broken strut with OEM parts. Since their installation, ride quality has suffered greatly. My Q rides like a truck. It's to the point where I fear it's having adverse effects on other components of my suspension. I'm sure if I were to install other performance mods, the Blues would come into their own. I don't have any desire to though. The G50 is a luxury car, and that's all I want out of it. There isn't any real discernable difference in handling either, meaning the cons definitely outweigh the pros.

Did you replace all the rubber compnonents? Also, if the upper links, steering rack bushings, tension rod bearings, etc. are not up to OEM as new standards, your ride will suffer.

Read Q45tech's admonsinments about changing shocks in winter when fluids are less viscous.

[Q45man1]

Two weeks ago I replaced my OEM shocks with Tokico Blues and put in new boots and mounts. What a difference in handling area. The ride is a little bit firm but the quality of ride is not lost. I love it!

All I have to now is to change to a high performance tires (16+) and install a light weight rims.

Percy

[StarPD]

Suggestion:

Two weeks ago I replaced my OEM shocks with Tokico Blues and put in new boots and mounts. What a difference in handling area. The ride is a little bit firm but the quality of ride is not lost. I love it!

All I have to now is to change to a high performance tires (16+) and install a light weight rims.

Percy

Suggestion:

Do research online for the combined weights of the wheels and tires you plan on using. Larger wheels, especially the less expensive ones can get pretty heavy, and the tire weight often doesn't drop by as much as the wheels weight increases. The really good forged lightweight wheels can run over $700 each. Add in another $280 to $380 per premium tire, then mounting and balancing, plus road hazard warranty and sales tax, and you could easily be looking at $5,000 for a good lightweight setup. Of course, it can be done cheaper, but not by a whole lot.

The cast TSW 18" "Kyalami" wheels and Bridgestone RE050A Pole Position tires I'm putting on my 2005 Q weigh combined around 60# each, and will cost me OTD $2600. Better and lighter wheels and tires would jack that up considerably.

FWIW, I'm advertising my takeoff (almost new) American Racing "Casino" 20" chrome wheels and Sumitomo 245/35ZR20 HTRZ II tires in the Infiniti Parts for sae folder for $1,000 for Phoenix buyers only (no ship). They're pretty, but not to my taste. Younger guys might like them though.

[maxnix]

The cast TSW 18" "Kyalami" wheels and Bridgestone RE050A Pole Position tires I'm putting on my 2005 Q weigh combined around 60# each, and will cost me OTD $2600. Better and lighter wheels and tires would jack that up considerably.

OZ Racing 18x9 +35 and 255/40-18 PS2 about 45 lb. each and $2500 without alignment.

[Rex]

The cast TSW 18" "Kyalami" wheels and Bridgestone RE050A Pole Position tires I'm putting on my 2005 Q weigh combined around 60# each, and will cost me OTD $2600. Better and lighter wheels and tires would jack that up considerably.

OZ Racing 18x9 +35 and 255/40-18 PS2 about 45 lb. each and $2500 without alignment.

The forged 18" BBS RG-R 18x9's I recently pruchased (from NICO sponsor http://www.tirerack.com) were less $$, but the shipping weight was ~50 lbs each. Though I think the one legible label also included 20 lugnuts.

[StarPD]

The forged 18" BBS RG-R 18x9's I recently pruchased (from NICO sponsor http://www.tirerack.com) were less $$, but the shipping weight was ~50 lbs each. Though I think the one legible label also included 20 lugnuts.

I get $942 each for BBS RGR and 255/40ZR18 PS2s.That's $3768. Road hazardwarranty is $137.76. Add in shipping, mounting and balancing, and sales tax, and cost is well over $4,000, pretty much as I mentioned. Unfortunately, I would have to like the wheels, and I don't care for the RGR that much, especially not for $4,000.

[StarPD]

OZ Racing 18x9 +35 and 255/40-18 PS2 about 45 lb. each and $2500 without alignment.

The only OZ wheels I'd put on my car are the Superleggera III; $874 each plus $287 for PS2s. Add in shipping, road hazard, mounting and balancing, and sale tax, and I'd be up to over $5,000.

Despite being heavier, the Kyalamis and RE050A are a better deal at half the price, at least for me. I just blew my brains out buying this car, and my beloved wife isn't very happy with me replacing wheels and tires that are almost new on a new to me car. You know how women think about things like that. So, I'll have to be happy with my choice. At least I like the Kyalamis, and TSW is supposed to be a pretty good wheel. Tire Rack and customers both rate the RE050A Pole Position so close to the PS2 as to be almost interchangeable in function, but for a lot less money.

I think I've done as good as I can under the circumstances. If I can sell my existing almost new wheels/tires, my out of pocket cost becomes more acceptable.

[maxnix]

I put the PS2 and OZ Superleggera on my wife's car. No compalints, believe me. The RGR are a steal for forged, but the OZ are as good as any cast wheel.

The Super Leggera III are heavier (like the BBS LM 3 piece), but probably stronger.

The truly trick wheel is the NISMO MAG Star, but it is a little more expensive. About 16 lbs. in an 18" wheel!

[elwesso]

Brian, im thinking about picking up a set of the superleggera's for my Q, how do you think they look on the Q.. normally I'm not a big fan of smaller spoked wheels on a Q.

[maxnix]

Well, they are on the FY33, but in my test fitting on the front of the G50, I wouldn't go any more towards negative.

I like them as they are llithe, and show the caliper very well stationary and rolling. The 255-40 look like they were made for that width.

The only thing that gives me pause on the Ultraleggera is the spoke is extended so it protrudes from the rim itself. But they are strong and true.

Superleggera no longer in production. Not to be confused with Superleggera III 3 piece forged, which TexasOil has on his SL600.

[StarPD]

I put the PS2 and OZ Superleggera on my wife's car. No compalints, believe me. The RGR are a steal for forged, but the OZ are as good as any cast wheel.

The Super Leggera III are heavier (like the BBS LM 3 piece), but probably stronger.

The truly trick wheel is the NISMO MAG Star, but it is a little more expensive. About 16 lbs. in an 18" wheel!

While I expect to be happy with the appearance of the TSW Kyalamis and RE050As, I'd like to be able to afford the OZ or BBS forged wheels with PS2s. They're just not in my budget right now.

I admit, I envy you. Good luck with them, and enjoy. They ARE an excellent way to go.

[elwesso]

Well, they are on the FY33, but in my test fitting on the front of the G50, I wouldn't go any more towards negative.

I like them as they are llithe, and show the caliper very well stationary and rolling. The 255-40 look like they were made for that width.

The only thing that gives me pause on the Ultraleggera is the spoke is extended so it protrudes from the rim itself. But they are strong and true.

Superleggera no longer in production. Not to be confused with Superleggera III 3 piece forged, which TexasOil has on his SL600.

Thanks... im bought a set except they were 18x8 and 18x9 ET 35 and 38.... Dont think you can do the 9s on a front of a G50 unfortunately.. They should fit nicely, and they are a different kind of look than what my Q is used to. Going to run 255F and 265 or 275 rear, havent decided on my rear fit yet.

[paranoidjack]

FWIW, my new to me 2005 Q45 corners a LOT flatter than my old '94 Q45t with new OEM shocks and bushings, stock BBS "lace" wheels and Yoko AVS-DB II new tires.

The 2005 does have 20" wheels and 245/35 tires, which I'm changing to 18x8 chrome TSWs with Potenza RE050A "Pole Position" tires, so it remains to be seen if it will still lay as flat in corners. Perhaps the semi-active shocks on the F50 contribute to the flat cornering, even on the "Auto" setting.

I sure wish someone made a Rear sway bar for the F50.

watch those pole positions. Treadwear is horrible. I just put a set on 15k ago and they backs are BALD, fronts are worn to 30%. I was VERY dissapointed with my $1000 worth of tires. My fault for not checking treadwear.

[maxnix]

Dont think you can do the 9s on a front of a G50 unfortunately..

Only thing they came close to was the fender. But didn't rotate the steering wheel. Stock springs.

255/40 on 8" wide may be a little too tight. I would look at 245/45-18.