Rants from the Ricer: Y U NO BUY Z CAR?!

[RicerX]

CAR DOODZ ON THE INTERWEBZ, you amuse me.

I read all the time on Nissan articles, forums, etc. about "we need a cheap sports car". It's been that way since the 240SX went away. For years, people complained about this, even up until 2013. Then came the Subuyota triplets (yeah I didn't use Toyobaru twins, because everyone else is doing that and they're WRONG MAN - there are three cars out there: a Toyota (JDM YO), a Scion, and a Subaru. Dropping knowledge bombs yo, but I digress). Everyone clung to this car like it was some kind of resurrection of Jesus in the name of cheaper sports cars.

"We love the BRZ - Nissan, Y U NO MAKE BRZ?! Y U NO CHEAP?! Y U JUKE?!" Well, allow me to play devil's advocate as a completely nuts Nissan guy with a touch of whizbang car-nerd factual backup.

I would argue that Nissan is already rockin its answer to the BRZ. It's better. It's badder. It's faster. It's cooler. It's JDM "yo". It's more fun, because racecar. It's the same price.

It's a mothereffin base model 2015 Nissan 370Z. Priced at $29,990 (that's a BRZ with navigation). Standard features are man-card-redeeming triple-pedal setup, sick a** black wheels, bluetooth and USB connectivity, and push button start, along with 332 horsepower and some other cool sports car things like having only two seats. You may say that's not as nice as a BRZ limited. It doesn't have a back seat. I say f*** you, because no one doing drift donuts at the local mall needs navigation, drift donuts are way better with 332 horsepower instead of 200, and no one is sitting in that back seat.


Seriously guys - $29,990. And it doesn't come with Prius wheels.

So you're a BRZ guy, and you're like "but 2758lb curb weight bro!" Yep, and I'm like "13.79 lbs per hp bro!" You know what the Z has? 9.87 lbs/hp. That's the number that matters to me, along with weight distribution. And guess what? Both cars share a 53/47 F/R weight distribution!

You may think the 370Z is ugly. To that, I say f*** you, but I have no counter argument, because that is a matter of opinion. Today, I am bringer of statistics! I heard this saying in some song somewhere, "Men lie, women lie, numbers don't." This is about sports cars, not Coach purses. Few people buy cars solely on looks. Well, at least here on NICOclub anyway. Nissan has managed to sell at least some Murano Crosscabriolets, which means that they apparently had a niche market for the blind, but I'm rambling now.

Back to why the Z car is better than you think it is. $29,990 in today's dollars buys you one of these magnificent 370Z cars today. But in 1998, it bought you one of these:


Pictured: $29,990 of 2014 USD on Throwback Thursday in 1998.

The above picture is a 1998 Nissan 240SX SE, which according to Cars.com, cost roughly $21,000. If you adjust for inflation (using 1997 as the base year as that's when the 98 model year went on sale), you have roughly $31,000 in purchasing power in 2014 dollars, according to bls.gov. MIND BLOWN. Do you mean to tell me that today's base model 370Z is Nissan's modern day equivalently-priced sports car counterpart to a 1998 240SX?! We already have a 240SX today, dudes. And guess what. It's much faster, far safer, and does the same or better on fuel economy (I'm too lazy to look that up, but if you come in here with an MPG argument, I'm punching you in the knee).

So why is it that no one is buying this car? Because Mustang? GTFO. Because BRZ? GTFO.


Pictured: BRZ target market.

The argument for "we need a Nissan BRZ" is antiquated, bishez. Come at me.


Pictured: Me.

[frapjap]

You left out that the head gaskets in a Z won't s*** themselves like a 2 year old given beans for dinner after the engine reaches 100k miles.

[frapjap]

But for conversations sake- which car has the higher insurance premiums?

[RicerX]

You left out that the head gaskets in a Z won't s*** themselves like a 2 year old given beans for dinner after the engine reaches 100k miles.

HA! The list grows. I should also add that spark plug replacement in a Z doesn't require you to take vacation time to complete.

[RicerX]

Insurance is a bit of a b**** because there are so many factors.

I will do the best I can here, as when I bought my 2013 Z I actually shopped both cars (I was in the middle of the hype). The BRZ was another $110/6 months for me to insure. (around $19/month more).

I had one accident on record at the time (I was found at fault, less than $5,000 total damage, so fairly minor overall). No tickets/violations. Single, over 25, two car + homeowners policy with State Farm. $500 deductibles.

I'm not sure what I'd be quoted at now. The accident in question is about the roll off, but I imagine the Z would still be cheaper for me.

[laxands13]

Never realized the Z was so cheap, but I'm far from being able to buy a new car so I don't look haha. I love the way the 370z looks. I hate the way they look when dropped on the ground a little bit less than I when the BRZ is too. Low is good, but I just don't understand..

[RicerX]

That's the problem - many people didn't realize where the car started in price. To their credit, they did drop it some for MY 2014 and offered credit the last half of the 2013 year.

[themadscientist]

It's one of the few cars I would consider. The new Mazda Roaster excites me.

[PapaSmurf2k3]

I believe cheap rwd sports car more refers to the s13. The kouki was considered expensive when it was out, which is why it hardly sold any units.

[Eikon]

I like your enthusiasm my friend.. but you're missing a couple things.

If you are comparing base models, the BRZ is $25,600 and the FRS is $24,900.. so we're talking $5,000 less. $5,000 gets you a supercharger kit and makes 300hp at the wheels in the BRZ/FRS. Stock for stock, the BRZ is not as fast in a straight line as the Z.. but when you drop $30k it can be.

You touch on the rear seat thing.. That's a big deal for most people, even though the FRS/BRZ back seat is terribly small, it still works in a pinch. The real value is the insurance savings. My BRZ costs less to insure than my wife's Hyundai Sonata did.

Sure.. F/R weight distribution is 53/47, but that's not the story with the BRZ. The advantage the BRZ has is in low center of gravity. This is what makes it handle so well!

Anyhow.. nice rant, but I'll still take my BRZ over the 370z every time.

[MinisterofDOOM]

To be honest, "performance for dollar" means little to me if the car doesn't do what I want. The Z does nothing I want.

It doesn't have a V8
The V6 it does have makes no low-end torque
It's not particularly powerful
It's not particularly fast
It doesn't handle particularly well
It doesn't look particularly good (I like it, but it's not my idea of gorgeous)
Despite all of these drawbacks, it's no more practical as a DD as any other sports car (and less than some).

It's basically a rolling ball of sportscar mediocrity.
Importantly: the packages that make the car potentially worth owning jack that $30k price up fast. Not Porsche fast, but still fast. Want a real diff and track-friendly, fade-free brakes? Add $4k. And who wants a 300hp RWD sports car without either of those things?! Nobody's going to buy a base model Z, because it's deliberately designed to be missing equipment you need to have in order to properly enjoy the car. Deliberately because Nissan wants to upsell to the Sport package. Hell, adding MagneRide to a 'Vette costs less than adding a basic mechanical LSD to the Z!!!!! Z options packaging blows (which is par for the course from Nissan in my experience). It's a sports car. The base model should do everything you NEED, and the options should make it more and more ridiculous.
Want a Z that performs like the competition? $42k, please. @#$% that.

Also, those base black wheels look like crap. Then again, the non-base wheels look like crap, too (just like all Nissan OEM wheels after 2006).

Getting the most performance for $30k isn't my car-buying mantra. Letting someone else buy a car for twice that much and resell it a few years later for a quarter is my mantra.

So, again: the Z does nothing I want, aside from being RWD and offering a third pedal. And there are a bucketload of other options out there that will do those things for $30k.

The Z really just doesn't hold up well against the competition. It weighs the same as cars making twice as much power (and torque you can actually use).

The Z isn't even on my list of cars I'd buy if I had infinite moneys to throw around. It's just not. And it's nowhere NEAR my "what I'd spend $30k on if that's all I had to spend" list.

The Z doesn't work hard enough to justify its own existence. The BRZ fills a niche. The Z doesn't. There are gobs of other 3,000lb+ GTs out there, and all of them do a lot of things better than the Z.

But I buy sedans, not coupes, so I'm not sure why I'm weighing in here anyway.
Then again, maybe that's the point: I'd LOVE a Corvette or a Viper despite my 4-door preference. The Z doesn't inspire the same lust.

[Bubba1]

The Z fills a niche too, just not as the same one as the BRZ. The BRZ appeals to a slightly lower price demographic.
You can always find things that other cars, new or used can do better, or cost less, be easier to mod, etc. etc But the Z's combination of virtues, like torquey smooth V6, man pedal, excellent handling, nicely set up pedals, poised chassis, and price, is why guys like me buy Z's.

I'm not saying it's a "better" car than a slightly less expensive, smaller Toyobaru or a more expensive Boxster, or that an old C5 or Viper can't outperform it. I'm saying, if you look at the entire package as a new car, it's still a lot of car for an enthusiast looking for something more powerful than a FRZ/BRZ or miata, and costs a LOT less than a Boxster,Lotus or BMW. If you use $35K-$40K as a price point for a new sports car, it's a very compelling choice.

Sorry guys, even though Nissan has not embraced the great horsepower war (well, except for stuffing a GTR motor into an Infiniti sedan, named it after a SPA turn that almost no one here in America ever heard of, and hyping the hell out of it), and has done little real development with the 370Z since it's introduction, and has all but ruined the drivers experience with the rest of the Nissan lineup by switching to Junkc..I mean Jatco CVT's, I would absolutely consider buying a new 370Z with a 6 speed. I've driven enough of them to understand how good they are.

RicerX, I think Nissan's taking the cheap route with the 370Z's development (as compared to its transportation appliances) is one of the big reasons why 370Z sales have dropped. Other than slapping on some ugly (IMHO) NISMO body cladding and bigger tires, the 2015 Z is pretty much the same car as the 2009 model. Unfortunately, the rest of the industry has moved on.

Given the choice between a BRZ and 370Z, I'd buy the 370Z in a heartbeat.

[RicerX]

Stoked to see you guys chiming in here. I consider each of you to be pretty educated enthusiasts, and I'm going to continue with the devil's advocate approach with each of the points you bring up.

I believe cheap rwd sports car more refers to the s13. The kouki was considered expensive when it was out, which is why it hardly sold any units.

Alrighty - a 1989 240SX had an MSRP around the $15k range. The only MSRP info I could find was a figure of $15,175, which comes out to $29,108 in today's dollars. It's still roughly even.

I like your enthusiasm my friend.. but you're missing a couple things.

If you are comparing base models, the BRZ is $25,600 and the FRS is $24,900.. so we're talking $5,000 less. $5,000 gets you a supercharger kit and makes 300hp at the wheels in the BRZ/FRS. Stock for stock, the BRZ is not as fast in a straight line as the Z.. but when you drop $30k it can be.

You touch on the rear seat thing.. That's a big deal for most people, even though the FRS/BRZ back seat is terribly small, it still works in a pinch. The real value is the insurance savings. My BRZ costs less to insure than my wife's Hyundai Sonata did.

Sure.. F/R weight distribution is 53/47, but that's not the story with the BRZ. The advantage the BRZ has is in low center of gravity. This is what makes it handle so well!

Anyhow.. nice rant, but I'll still take my BRZ over the 370z every time.

Now to be clear, I'm not saying the BRZ is a bad car (I personally do like it a lot and I even entertained buying one when they came out), so don't take any of what I'm saying as criticism over the car or the people who buy it. This is more to dig deeper and find out what the Z is missing and why something like the BRZ is such a massive hit when they're both pretty close to each other. I'm going to continue saying "pretty close" for the following reasons:

Even though you have the starting prices for the BRZ at $25,600, TRUECar has some pretty interesting information. The average transaction price for a BRZ sits right at around $27,775 in my area (the FRS pulling a $26,800 average transaction price), with the most popular trim being the Limited version. People aren't interested in the base models of these cars, apparently, and the Premium/Limited trims contain options that are standard equipment on the Z such has HID headlights, proximity key, and push button start. And if we're being real about people like us who would wheel and deal, tell me that you couldn't walk to any Nissan dealer and get a base model Z at that price without much of a fight. I will touch on a sport package model argument when I get to MoD's post. This is why I argue that these cars are closer that a blatant $4500 difference as far as what people are buying.

The point you make regarding the supercharger deal - I feel that's a bad argument. You can spend $5k on a supercharger kit to make just a bit more power than the Z already puts down, but you still have a garbage set of stock wheels/tires, you may/may not need a clutch upgrade, and suspension upgrades to help the car better handle the extra power wouldn't be a terrible idea either. To do that kind of modification the right way, I feel it's closer to an $8k job, and you may still be in a driver's race with a Z + the sport package.

As far as the back seat and insurance, according to my insurance company (as I mentioned above in response to Ray), it doesn't make any difference. So if you like to have the back seat as a just in case thing, rock on. I would consider that a preference thing, and I can't say whether that's a big enough reason for someone to pick any other two door car in this price range over a Z. It may be a factor, but I would imagine it to be very minor. I could be wrong - don't have the information there.

Finally - concerning handling: this is obviously the strongest attribute the BRZ has. It's tossable and it's fun. As far as it's handling capability, the Z possesses superior road holding capability (0.99g vs the BRZ's 0.90g lateral acceleration as one thing), but with the cars being so close in capability it almost comes down to opinion here, and enthusiasts for each car could argue for days. It all comes down to what the driver is comfortable with, and the casual sports car guy may just go either way with these two machines.

To be honest, "performance for dollar" means little to me if the car doesn't do what I want. The Z does nothing I want.

It doesn't have a V8
The V6 it does have makes no low-end torque
It's not particularly powerful
It's not particularly fast
It doesn't handle particularly well
It doesn't look particularly good (I like it, but it's not my idea of gorgeous)
Despite all of these drawbacks, it's no more practical as a DD as any other sports car (and less than some).

I'm gonna break some things up here since there's a lot to address, as you're the toughest sell on a car as anyone I have ever talked with. I'm going to avoid some of the opinions because there's nothing to argue there.

Your cup of tea is V8s. So while you're not a fan of the Z, you're definitely not a BRZ guy either. The only other thing for you out there is one of the three pony cars. That's totally cool, as you're apparently in the majority when you look at American sports car numbers. You're also looking at slightly higher prices: $34,500 for a 1SS Camaro, $32,100 for a Mustang GT, and $31,495 for a Challenger R/T.

It's basically a rolling ball of sportscar mediocrity.
Importantly: the packages that make the car potentially worth owning jack that $30k price up fast. Not Porsche fast, but still fast. Want a real diff and track-friendly, fade-free brakes? Add $4k. And who wants a 300hp RWD sports car without either of those things?! Nobody's going to buy a base model Z, because it's deliberately designed to be missing equipment you need to have in order to properly enjoy the car. Deliberately because Nissan wants to upsell to the Sport package. Hell, adding MagneRide to a 'Vette costs less than adding a basic mechanical LSD to the Z!!!!! Z options packaging blows (which is par for the course from Nissan in my experience). It's a sports car. The base model should do everything you NEED, and the options should make it more and more ridiculous.
Want a Z that performs like the competition? $42k, please. @#$% that.

Firstly - the options you talk about the Z needing only brings the price up to $33,570. Leather seats and bluetooth doesn't help you on a track, so you don't need the touring package. Your argument about the Z having what it needs is also a bit off base when you look at the competition I laid out above in the pony cars. Ford has its GT Performance package that does a lot of the same things for the 2015 Mustang that the Sport Package does for the Z - upgraded wheels, brakes, and differential. That pushes its price up closer to the $36k mark - still a great value. Chevy gets credit - if you buy a Camaro 1SS, it has the big wheels, brakes, and diff. There is a brake upgrade option you can opt for, but the Brembos at base are fine. If we're trying to even the playing field, the Challenger needs to be the SRT version, and it's a $45k car.

All I'm saying is the argument you make about packaging isn't just a Nissan thing. Everyone is doing it, even the guys that are selling sports cars like hotcakes (Ford).

The Z really just doesn't hold up well against the competition. It weighs the same as cars making twice as much power (and torque you can actually use).

What does the Z compete against that has 660-ish hp and 540lb-ft-ish of torque?

But I buy sedans, not coupes, so I'm not sure why I'm weighing in here anyway.
Then again, maybe that's the point: I'd LOVE a Corvette or a Viper despite my 4-door preference. The Z doesn't inspire the same lust.

LOL yup. And we can agree - I would love a Viper. I'm currently too afraid of anything GM from a quality standpoint to buy anything they make, no matter how awesome they look (the new Vette).

[Kompresshun]

Here's my take on why the BRZ/FRS is more popular:

It's another option. It was something unique and different in a market that was yearning for something different.

There's nothing wrong with the Z in my eyes, but nothing about it particularly strikes me as awesome about it either. I like the look of them, think they sound great, and can be plenty of fun to drive but to me there's many other cars that fit that category too.

So what draws me to the BRZ/FRS? I would say it's smaller size, back seat, and having a good base for modifications while still being great in stock form. To me it's everything I love about the Miata, but add a back seat and a fixed roof. There's something about it that just puts a smile on your face. I don't find that same joy with a Z and i'm not quite sure why, but I just don't.

Speaking of the Miata, with the rumors swirling of a coupe coming I think we may have some competition for the Toyobaru twins soon as well. In my opinion, a Miata coupe would be a huge hit and would shake up the market even more.

That's the thing too... there are so many new options on the market popping up that the Z needs to do something different. To me it's not really in competition with anything is the problem. It's in a category of it's own, because what does it have to compete with? The only thing that comes to mind is the Hyundai Genesis but even it offers a back seat and a 2.0L Turbo R-Spec package to keep cost down, while still offering some fun to match. The Z needs to have a better entry level option IMHO, unless it wants to only compete with higher end cars. I don't think it can hang with Ze Germans.

Then even though we're not talking about used cars here, think about how far the money you would spend on a Z would get you on the used market... You could pick up a nice M3, CTS-V, G37S, Porsche Cayman, and the list goes on. I know we're talking about new vehicles here, but I don't buy new typically and I would much rather spend that money on something like a Porsche Cayman. That's just me rambling though...

[Bubba1]

I find it interesting that so many think its a bad thing that the 370Z seems alone from its competition. What's wrong with unique? Wasn't always that way. its competition has either gone upscale (BMW/Audi) or gone away completely (S2K and RX8). I know people now want to compare a 320hp 370Z to a 200 hp BRZ. It's more like apples and oranges. A 4 banger BRZ is more comparable to a 4 banger Miata, which are essentially entry level sports cars. The 370Z is a step up. The fact that the Z's prices are not far off from the BRZ is more a testament to Nissan for holding down the prices. (Shame Nissan didn't do the same with the GT-R). And the fact you can mod a BRZ to put out similar power numbers as a stock Z is irrelevant. Put the same aftermarket money into a Z and it'll bury the BRZ.

For the record, the 370Z absolutely can hang with Ze german cars. Certainly not a GT3 RS or a TT-RS, but Boxsters/Caymans, sure. I do that now in an 11 yr old 350Z. And the 370 is a better car than the 350.

And Chris, since this topic is about new cars, not used cars, would you be willing to spend almost double the cost of a new 370Z for a new Cayman S? Cayman is obviously a great car, but when you add economics into the equation, I think many will agree the Z starts looking like a pretty good deal.

[MinisterofDOOM]

like torquey smooth V6

ROFL. The VQ37 is neither of those things.

All I'm saying is the argument you make about packaging isn't just a Nissan thing. Everyone is doing it, even the guys that are selling sports cars like hotcakes (Ford)

True, and Ford's strategy with the Mustang is even more annoying, especially now that the car is advancing its tech a bit. Ford is DETERMINED to have the lowest pony-car MSRP. So they strip down the base model as much as they can. It looks cheaper on paper, but that doesn't hold true once you've configured a Mustang worth actually driving. But, then again, the bulk of Mustang buyers aren't enthusiasts like us, and don't even know what "open diff" means, so it works for Ford. Compared to the Mustang, I think Z has a more enthusiast-oriented market, buyer-wise, and I'd like to see that reflected in its standard features. Just make the LSD a $500 option on its own and call it good. EVERYONE will order it. Even image-buyers want to have a better time driving in the snow.

My complaint, Nissan-specifically, is that just about EVERY Nissan I've priced out in the last decade has included a lot of crap I don't want at a lot of expense just to get a couple things I do want.
Chevy has always been a little ahead of the curve with options packaging. Last-gen Malibus kept engine options completely separate from other options, so you could get a "fully loaded" 4-banger or a stripper six. Nobody else does that, and it's kind of obnoxious. I wish they'd do it with the SS, because I don't need half of the standard features it comes with (though it's kind of hard to argue with $45k for a 400hp rwd sedan these days).

Honestly, though, pony cars aren't on my list any more than the Z is. They're even LESS so, in reality. I don't really think of them as competition for each-other (I certainly don't cross-shop them as alternatives). They're 2+2s, making them too much of a compromise between proper sportscar layout and sedan. If it has 4 seats, it should have 4 doors, and if it doesn't have 4 doors it shouldn't have 4 seats. The Z is a GT, which is more appealing to me than a ponycar. Any manufacturer making a ponycar also makes a sedan with the same powertrain that I'd rather have instead--unless we're talking ultra-high-end track packages like the Z28, at which point we're into a whole different price range.

What does the Z compete against that has 660-ish hp and 540lb-ft-ish of torque?

Corvette, Viper. Yes, they cost twice as much, but that's sort of the point. They do twice as much. Which means the Z isn't really that "affordable" for what you get. It's just less content for proportionally less money. It just doesn't look like a screaming deal next to most other GTs on the market. Yes, $30k might be a conveniently low entry point, but that mentality fails to account for what you're getting.
And aside from Corvette and Viper, there are also the Hellcat and the Z28 as well as whatever the next hot Mustang turns out to be. The Hellcat is a fatass for sure, but the others make the Z look like it needs to spend some time in the gym. They're all a LOT bigger and a lot more powerful but barely (if at all) heavier.

[lne937s]

I think it is good to keep in mind that neither the Z or BRZ are selling that well. Both sell about 600 cars a month in the US. The FRS is doing a little better, but it still sold less than 1000 vehicles last month. The current Miata has actually only been selling around 400/month. Considering how long the Z has been on the market, it is actually doing fairly well in comparison. And because it is built off an existing platform, it is likely in a better financial situation than the Toyobaru twins.

http://www.mazdausamedia.com/2014-10-01 ... MBER-SALES
http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/ ... -u-s-sales
http://www.media.subaru.com/newsrelease ... er&mid=120
http://www.toyotanewsroom.com/releases/ ... +chart.htm

However, cars like the Juke outsell all 4 of those cars combined (and Europe is actually that car's primary market, where it is Nissan's second best selling car). Realistically, more people need to buy small RWD cars like these (and/or more marketable platform derivatives need to share their platform) if we expect more of them to become available. I have a feeling the financial realities are more favorable for something like a NISMO Pulsar or WRX competitor.

[Kompresshun]

I find it interesting that so many think its a bad thing that the 370Z seems alone from its competition. What's wrong with unique? Wasn't always that way. its competition has either gone upscale (BMW/Audi) or gone away completely (S2K and RX8). I know people now want to compare a 320hp 370Z to a 200 hp BRZ. It's more like apples and oranges. A 4 banger BRZ is more comparable to a 4 banger Miata, which are essentially entry level sports cars. The 370Z is a step up. The fact that the Z's prices are not far off from the BRZ is more a testament to Nissan for holding down the prices. (Shame Nissan didn't do the same with the GT-R). And the fact you can mod a BRZ to put out similar power numbers as a stock Z is irrelevant. Put the same aftermarket money into a Z and it'll bury the BRZ.

There's nothing wrong with unique. I agree with you that really comparing it to anything like the BRZ is unfair, but in the same sense - what makes it desirable?

I honestly forget about the 370Z until I see one and even then, nothing about it strikes me as awesome about it. I'm not saying it's a bad choice, or a bad car, but nothing about it really does anything for me. It's an aging design that really didn't get a lot of attention in the first place from the general population. The sales numbers are proof of that. For someone like you, it's something that you have seat time in and it's proven itself to you as a great car. I think there are plenty of other people that know it's a good vehicle as well, but as we've been covering so far - not everyone feels the same way about it. I personally appreciate it more than the general population, but it is not a vehicle that I desire to own at any point in my life. I honestly feel very similar about the Z33 as well.

And Chris, since this topic is about new cars, not used cars, would you be willing to spend almost double the cost of a new 370Z for a new Cayman S? Cayman is obviously a great car, but when you add economics into the equation, I think many will agree the Z starts looking like a pretty good deal.

Well of course not. I was just simply offering a different perspective, because I typically don't buy vehicles new. It really depends on what i'm in the market for though.

If I were buying new only though, I still don't find the 370Z that great of a bargain. In fact, quite contrary to MoD I would probably be in the market for a Mustang because the Ecoboost Mustang starts in the $25k price range and offers 315hp which comes standard with an LSD unlike MoD said.

Doesn't sound good enough? For $1,995 extra you can get the "Ecoboost Performance Pack" which adds 19" wheels with upgraded tires, K-bracing, upgraded springs, larger brakes with 4-piston calipers, and a 3.55 rear axle. That comes up as $27,990 total for a car that seems to tackle the track pretty well from what i've heard so far and with the $2,000 i'd be saving with over the 370Z, i'm willing to bet I could squeeze another 20hp out of the Mustang easily with a tune, turning the boost up, and some exhaust.. Oh and it looks fantastic IMHO. I find myself staring at them every single time I see them. Hate away if you like, but that's where my money would be going.

[audtatious]

I didn't read all that s***

[Bubba1]

I didn't read all that s***

Chris, to answer your question why it's desireable? Other than it not being expensive, is a drama free, very good turn key RWD sports car, is quick, handles EXTREMELY well, very predictable at its limits, is delightful to drive (even to an experienced driver), plus is durable/reliable.... uh... nothing.

As far the 350Z's engine not being smooth and torquey, MoD, I'm guessing you're comparing them to V8's. I'm comparing it to it's direct competition, like a Honda S2K, mazda RX-8, etc etc. Try driving one of them hard, and you'll understand how torquey the Z is by comparison.

I'm not going to bash a mustang, because when appropriately equipped they are good performing pony cars. But having driven a few of them on track, all I can say is you are welcome to buy one, I wouldn't want to own one. They just don't feel like they'll hold up.

[Kompresshun]

I didn't read all that s***

I don't blame you.

Chris, to answer your question why it's desireable? Other than it not being expensive, is a drama free, very good turn key RWD sports car, is quick, handles EXTREMELY well, very predictable at its limits, is delightful to drive (even to an experienced driver), plus is durable/reliable.... uh... nothing.

As far the 350Z's engine not being smooth and torquey, MoD, I'm guessing you're comparing them to V8's. I'm comparing it to it's direct competition, like a Honda S2K, mazda RX-8, etc etc. Try driving one of them hard, and you'll understand how torquey the Z is by comparison.

I'm not going to bash a mustang, because when appropriately equipped they are good performing pony cars. But having driven a few of them on track, all I can say is you are welcome to buy one, I wouldn't want to own one. They just don't feel like they'll hold up.

Maybe I should rephrase that then... Why is it not desirable then? That's really what we're getting at here. I'm not doubting that it's a perfectly capable sports car, but it seems that the general population isn't very interested in it. My outlook on it is just personal preference, but even considering the things you've mentioned it doesn't make me any more interested in it. Something about it is boring and I honestly can't tell you why, as you can tell from my ramblings. I can't find a reason to hate it, but I can't find a good reason to like it either.

Obviously it needs a shakeup no matter how you slice it, or Nissan would be moving more of them right now. Something is wrong with the formula, even though it checks off a lot of the right boxes. My fear is that Nissan will ruin it if they shake it up though, because they have a track record for making poor decisions with their products. I'm hoping the heritage of the Z won't allow that to happen though, but with recent departures from Nissan I wouldn't rule it out either.

I honestly don't disagree with you on the Mustang either. I am not overly confident any anything with the Ecoboost attached to it at the moment, but if it proves reliable over time I believe it could be a fun option package to have. Even though they refuse to call it an SVO, it's really what it reminds me of. Larger engine horsepower in a smaller, more fuel efficient package. It's the only new coupe on the market that I really find myself drooling over every time I see it. It would also be awfully tempting to spend the extra money for the 430hp Mustang GT as well.

[lne937s]

Obviously it needs a shakeup no matter how you slice it, or Nissan would be moving more of them right now. Something is wrong with the formula, even though it checks off a lot of the right boxes. My fear is that Nissan will ruin it if they shake it up though, because they have a track record for making poor decisions with their products. I'm hoping the heritage of the Z won't allow that to happen though, but with recent departures from Nissan I wouldn't rule it out either.

Nobody is moving significant numbers of affordable RWD sports cars. There are just not enough people currently willing to pay for a new car in that segment. If you are basing success on sales, then the Juke (which outsells the entire sub-$40k RWD sports car segment) has been wildly successful compared to Nissan's 370Z and the WRX has been far more successful than Subaru's BRZ. It would be great to see more cars sold in that segment, but few are buying them. From what I've seen, it looks like the next Z will be a lighter, purer sports car. However, I wouldn't judge its success solely on sales numbers.

The Mustang (with a relatively long wheelbase, forward weight bias, 300-500 lbs. more than the Z...) is a muscle car, not a sports car. Unless they can go back in time to late '60's to start move hundreds of thousands of muscle cars that teenagers back then will still lust for decades later as expanded-girth empty nesters with disposable income, Nissan cannot effectively tap that market.

[SX APPEAL]

Here's a fun little article for those extolling the virtues of the Mustang EcoBoost. Spoiler alert: It's not as "Eco" as you think it is...

http://blog.caranddriver.com/performanc ... -ecoboost/

[lne937s]

Here's a fun little article for those extolling the virtues of the Mustang EcoBoost. Spoiler alert: It's not as "Eco" as you think it is...

http://blog.caranddriver.com/performanc ... -ecoboost/

Take a look at those numbers on the EcoBoost, then compare them to cars like the v6 Altima. The Altima is larger, lighter and more fuel efficient. And while the EcoBoost Mustang is faster off the line (no doubt using tactics you would never consider in every day driving) the Altima is essentially the same for 5-60 and in-gear acceleration. And as speeds go up from there, the Altima ends up with a faster 1/4 mile trap speed and accelerates faster to 130 mph. Change the gearing, offer a sports suspension/tire/brake package (maybe pipe in the same artificial engine noise as the Mustang for people impressed by that) and the Altima would be a solid performance competitor for the turbo 4 muscle car...

[frapjap]

Take a look at those numbers on the EcoBoost, then compare them to cars like the v6 Altima. The Altima is larger, lighter and more fuel efficient. And while the EcoBoost Mustang is faster off the line (no doubt using tactics you would never consider in every day driving) the Altima is essentially the same for 5-60 and in-gear acceleration. And as speeds go up from there, the Altima ends up with a faster 1/4 mile trap speed and accelerates faster to 130 mph. Change the gearing, offer a sports suspension/tire/brake package (maybe pipe in the same artificial engine noise as the Mustang for people impressed by that) and the Altima would be a solid performance competitor for the turbo 4 muscle car...

I'm just glad you didn't use the words "sports car" there.

[SX APPEAL]

Performance aside, I just get a kick out of the fuel economy numbers for the ecoboost. Ford claims 21/32 and C/D observed 19, only 2mpg better than the V8 with 125 more horsepower.

[Kompresshun]

I didn't expect crazy awesome fuel economy numbers from the Mustang so you're not telling me anything new. If you're buying one for fuel savings you're doing it wrong and I will be the first to admit that Ford's Ecoboost obsession is a load of crap in the sense that they're trying to use it to market better fuel economy. The use of turbos in general though seem to be paying off.

Comparing a Mustang to an Altima is just silly, but if you want to go right ahead. We can do a track test to see which transmission holds up longer. Spoiler alert: CVT loses

Now the reason I find the turbo Mustang attractive is because of weight distribution, a manual transmission available, a factory package that improves it's capability on the track, all wrapped up in a gorgeous body. Oh and the fuel economy numbers while not impressive aren't too shabby either for a sports car. Yeah I called it a sports car. EAD Ray

This is all a matter of perspective from one person though. We all buy different cars for different reasons. I personally have had 4 Mustangs, a 280Z, a 300ZX(Z32), and a Camaro. Mustangs have always been one of my favorite vehicles out there and I will likely always have that desire for them, because they bring back memories. I have even more memories with Z's though and I honestly quit caring about the Z after the Z32.

Again though, we all have different perspectives on what makes a vehicle great. The Z doesn't check off the right boxes for me but it does for other people like Joel and Zack. I don't spend hardly any time on the track and that may be part of the reason. I find more joy getting lost on some back roads for hours. I don't really care about lap times or how many G's a car can pull around a corner. I care about one thing: Does it put a smile on my face?

[lne937s]

Comparing a Mustang to an Altima is just silly, but if you want to go right ahead. We can do a track test to see which transmission holds up longer. Spoiler alert: CVT loses

You may chuckle, but I would actually like to see that test. The Altima's CVT has its detractors, but it would be interesting to find out how much of that is reality versus being based on issues with previous iterations or the sensation of driving a CVT. However, the Mustang's Chinese-made transmission (which continues to the new car) has also had more than its fair share of issues.
http://jalopnik.com/5792482/faulty-chin ... rd-mustang

But regardless of this comparison, I really wish Nissan would take their CVT's to the track more (and wish more racing series would allow them). The concept has promise, especially if you tuned it for racing. And you can learn a lot about how to make a powertrain stronger by pushing it to its limits on the track.

[frapjap]

Now the reason I find the turbo Mustang attractive is because of weight distribution, a manual transmission available, a factory package that improves it's capability on the track, all wrapped up in a gorgeous body. Oh and the fuel economy numbers while not impressive aren't too shabby either for a sports car. Yeah I called it a sports car. EAD Ray

I refer to the most recent generations of Mustangs as sports cars, for those same reasons. Even with all that weight, they're damned competent on the track and would go as far as to include the Edge models, too. They might not meet the definition that purists set out, but its enough for me.

A question though- is a GT (Mustang, Camaro, Genesis, G35, 370Z, Carerra, etc) car considered a "sports car," or is it more of a class of sports car?

Again though, we all have different perspectives on what makes a vehicle great. The Z doesn't check off the right boxes for me but it does for other people like Joel and Zack. I don't spend hardly any time on the track and that may be part of the reason. I find more joy getting lost on some back roads for hours. I don't really care about lap times or how many G's a car can pull around a corner. I care about one thing: Does it put a smile on my face?

We all have different purposes for our cars. Mine fall more in line with this, as do most of the folks who buy Corvettes.

[SX APPEAL]

But regardless of this comparison, I really wish Nissan would take their CVT's to the track more (and wish more racing series would allow them). The concept has promise, especially if you tuned it for racing. And you can learn a lot about how to make a powertrain stronger by pushing it to its limits on the track.

Williams actually experimented with CVT's in their F1 cars in the early 90's. It got banned very rapidly though once it became clear what an immense advantage it would be.