quick timing retard question?!

[sunnys14]

anyone think i can get away with retarding at the distributor @ 12psi?

[Chezedik]

Maybe, but seriously, we have seen what happens. You want big numbers. I will be happy to see you make them, but you do really need some proper management. BTW, do you still have anything left of the S wastegate, or is it totalled?

[sunnys14]

S wastegate? i still have parts of my old fake wastegate... did u want something off it?

[Chezedik]

Yeah, if you still have it (and you said you beat the **** out of it) I want to see if it can be modified to work right. Oh, have you seen NissanFanatic's write up on how to prevent overboost? You will get it right, and we will help!

[Chezedik]

Do you AIM?

[S14tat]

people have done it, but you'll be pulling atleast 6 degrees off your base timing and your drivability off boost is goin to suck.

[sunnys14]

how much timing should i pull though? 12 psi with 91 octane... ive heard some say pull .5 degrees after 8psi, others say .5 degrees for every 1 psi... i dont know who to believe...

[S14tat]

there are people that say if your running below 4 psi, don't even bother pulling time back since its very low boost.

however once you go past that point, it should be atleast .5 degrees per psi. when i say atleast, that takes other things into consideration such as octane rating and the temperature of your soundings etc.

since your location only has 91 octane i would go with the .75 degrees per psi rule. so that would be 12 x .75 = 9 degrees you should be pulling back. that means your base timing would be only 11 degrees btc.

would it even be worth it?

[Chezedik]

how much timing should i pull though? 12 psi with 91 octane... ive heard some say pull .5 degrees after 8psi, others say .5 degrees for every 1 psi... i dont know who to believe...

I am in the middle states, and excusing ethanol, 91 is tops. So as I understand it with good tuning, you make 7psi tops. But let us all not forget, we need good tuning otherwise, you run crap. Sunny, you have done this more times than I have. You know that it is all about tuning. If you have used the NissanFanatic Overboost deal, than you would have never had probs with your **** WG, find a good WG and you won't need it, but you have way more experience than I do. So, you know what to do, but you are like me, and you don't want to hear it. Just use the fanatic way, and even if things fail, you will have the time to fix it.

[WDRacing]

Alot depends on what your AF's are. The cooling eefect of running at 10/1 instead of 11.5/1 is a really big difference. I'd stay on the safe side if you don't have a knock meter and wideband. For 50 bucks you can rig a water injection setup and you'd be pretty safe. HAve the spray start at 7 psi or so. Good for about 275-300 degree's of cooling eefect on the EGT gauge when I used that setup.

It's all in the tuning, it can be done, but at a risk.

WD

[sunnys14]

all the things listed in my sig are the things i got for my rebuild i decided to keep the KA so, i wanted to squeeze as much as i can without buying enthalpy for now. Bobby ran 10 psi with no timing retard earlier from what i read.

[sunnys14]

so yes on 15btdc base @ 12psi?

[sunnys14]

oh yeah, i just got some 9:1 compression pistons installed, that should help a lil right?

[DammitBobby]

Bobby ran 10 psi with no timing retard earlier from what i read.

That is correct but we have 93 octane! Back then I was running a walbro and FMU. When my motor crapped it was only the number 3 rod bearing. All my pistons and rods looked good with no visable cracks. I would at least go .5 degrees after 8 psi as a minimum. If you do what WD suggested add methanol with water and it will act like an octane booster with cooling effect.

WD have you added a DIY water injection in our read first post? That is something I want to start messing with after I get my new HKS bypass valve installed.

[WDRacing]

Haven't yet, but it's a project I want to do. I have a ton of really good info. Not to mention I've tried a bunch of various combo's myself...some of which didn't work and resulted in a bad motor....heh.

[DammitBobby]

Yep that is why I am asking, I rather get my info from somebody who has allready tried it. The Snow Performance looks like a good choice but wow is it expensive!!

[240SicknessX]

i can get away with 12 psi with timing still left to retard (maybe 1 more degree, very little). my total timing is 22 degrees wot. My sparkplugs are nice and tan burning cleanly. After i get a walbro and adjustable fpr ill have the fuel to see how much power i can make with just base retard. afr's are kept around 11.30-11.40. i est i can safely get 13 psi from my t04e 60trim w\ base retard before the plugs start getting a tad lean.

This is my setup w\ 550cc injectors and safc (remember how it affects timing w\ larger injectors). I DO NOT recomend anyone attemp to retard their timing all the way and run 12-13psi of boost.

i dont follow any rule for a certain amount of base degrees pulled for a specific amount of boost. my car wont hold a steady idle for the life of me so i pull or add timing based off what i see in the sparkplugs. i started at 5psi, i pulled about 4-5 degrees. I knew i was conservative to start, then i upped the boost systematically and monitored my afr w\ the wbo2 until my plugs didnt show a rich burn effect of retarded timing. I increased boost 1 lb per pull and adjusted timing based off sparkplug conditions. I was very cautious about everything i did. i did it slow and was careful, i almost have 9,000 miles on my ka-t with 6 drift events and about 17 runs down the 1\4 mile, still perfect compression on all 4 cylinders.

btw, a little hint, for my drift events, ill tune for 11psi and get that tune perfect\safe with the timing and afr curve, then turn the boost down to 10 with the 11psi tune. my dailydriver is still running.

learn the charictoristics of your sparkplug conditions regardless of what tuning rules you follow, every setup is very different.

[sunnys14]

i hope mine doesnt blow up again... 15btdc at 12psi... i want to try it

[240SicknessX]

too much timing sunny....... i reccomend you pull back to 12-13 degrees, setup your a\f ratio, then advance the timing if the plugs look retarded, if they look advanced or too lean which they probably will, pull more base timing or run less boost systematically and look at the plugs to verify that there are no lean spots or detonation. Well thats how i did it on my car. search google, i think ngk has a bunch of photos decribing spark plug charictoristics.

if you follow the .75 degree retard per lb of boost starting from 0psi (which i think is best unless you are running alchahol\water\methanol injection) and at 12psi, someone already did the math for you. Was it about 11 degrees btdc for 12psi of boost. Use that as a starting point, then what ever you do from there is up to you. You are running 91 octane, be conservative, i remember your car wasnt running long last time, dont make the same mistakes just because it feels fast.

w\ safc and 550's i almost have my base timing maxed out as far retard as you can go at 11psi daily. I might be able to get 13psi with all the timing pulled with out venturing into the danger section of being too advanced for the amount of boost. Driveability sucks big time though.

[WDRacing]

The MSd BTM is just over $100...buy it. It works great and it doesn't kill your daily driving.

[Dammitboy]

I used to run a Jacob's boost timing master, similar to the msd btm.

You can run advanced timing until it sees boost, then it'll retard timing to a pre set amount.

[Craving4Boost]

you can have my BTM for cheap trung since im going enthalpy anyway.

[sunnys14]

i want your BTM. ive tried searching on how to wire it on the s14 dizzy but the directions and write-ups that ive found arent clear enough. can anyone help me out???

[WDRacing]

It's a PITA, I have a writeup with wiring in an email somewhere. Shoot me an email here, [email protected] so I don't forget to look. My short term memory basically quit on me at 25...that was 6 years ago.

What were we talking about...

[KATwo40]

I'd like to chime in here and voice an opinion.

First of all, running a 10:1 AFR is absolutely stupid. The cooling effect is not because the burn is rich, but rather because there's more fuel than can possibly be burned. At a 10:1 ratio you're just wasting fuel. 12:1 with proper timing control/retard is the more optimal solution.

Second, water injection is a poor way of compensating for proper tuning. Why would you add more crap to the mix and have a semi-reliable system (not to mention ANOTHER consumable) when you could just spring for a proper tuning solution to make the same power or better? Water and alcohol injection should be used when you're running crazy boost, such as 25+psi. Not 12psi. That's just silly.

Again, these are just my opinions on the subject matter, not the gospel.

[Craving4Boost]

but with "lower" boost and a cheap water injection kit, you can run stock timing. and with that 28degree timing at WOT compared to lets say 18...makes a whole lot of difference. am i accurate when i say this? with water injection and about 8-12 psi...is it safe to run stock timing with no retard?

[KATwo40]

Again, unreliable. Think about it. The amount of heat removed is going to be contingent upon variables beyond your control. What is the temperature of the water being injected? What about the difference between the temperature of the water at the time you tuned and the temperature of the water while you're driving around on the street? What if you ran out of water and didn't realize it? What if the water pump ceased to operate?

Wouldn't it be better to have the proper timing control so you could run aggressive off-boost timing and appropriate on-boost/engine load compensatory timing? Why risk your setup like that? Heck, I'd trade some off-boost throttle response for a motor that isn't blown any day.

[Jookmasta]

do not make the mistake of thinking that a water injection kit or alky kit will eliminate the retarding of timing..............unless ur using an upgraded ecu, or standalone, or emanage, u have to retard timing at a certain boost level (usually above 8psi) since u will have an NA ecu with NA timing maps. so to answer ur question, no it is not safe to run stock timing with no retard at ur psi level u stated. trust me that ur off boost throttle response will not be as bad as it seems. heck, that just means be in boost more often then if u dont like it.

[WDRacing]

You guys are throwing around alot of BAD opinions that are at best unproven.

12:1 on boost and a daily driver safe?...No. In the 12:1 range you're going to need a subinjection like methonal or higher octane base fuel then I can get which is 91. If you are running in the 12:1 range and removing timing to compensate...then you're losing more power then you're making by leaning the fuel map out. 11.5 is the leanest I'd tune anyones car who is concerned with daily driving safety. Especially when you're dealing with a lack of timing control. When I used 10:1 AF ratio in one of the above posts it was purely an example. The point was that it WILL burn colder and everyone's results WILL be different.

Water injection and alcohol injection is a VERY good way of running more boost and more timing. To say it isn't is simply ignorant. I can list 100 points to the positive for every negative someone can come up with.

I hate the term bandaid fix. Thats a BS phrase used by people who think they know everything. If it works and you're happy with the end result, is it a bandaid? No...

I've seen K-cars run 11's in the quarter with 4 extra injectors controlled by 4 seperate hobbs switches. Thats faster then most members on this board will EVER go. And it was a DIY setup that we could all be proud of.

It all boils down to this. Everyone will tune and mod their car to the best of their ability. It's our job as friends and members to assist in anyway we can. If Joey Baganacho's only has $300 to spend, I'll teach him how to build a nice cheap 2 stage extra injector setup for all his fuel needs. If he has 3 grand, then I'll help him tune his AEM EMS. But I will not simply voice uniformed opinions on a matter that someone else is currently seeking answers to.

WD

[Jookmasta]

yes alky and water injection does allow you to run more timing but it doesnt mean that at 12 psi, he can get away with stock timing. he's thinking that he can run stock timing at 12 psi and that the addition of an alky or water injection kit will make it safe....................we've seen the stock NA ecu advance timing to some high numbers in which at 12 psi, things would get ugly if he was on stock timing. Ur completely right tho in saying that u can run more timing with the alky/water injection as that is a proven fact.