quick timing retard question?!

[WDRacing]

Lets look into things I've personally done. I've run 9 lbs of boost at 11.0 to 1 AFR with no timing retard. So I'll say 8 psi would be a safe place to start. That a difference of 4 psi to get to our goal of 12 psi total boost. I would normally retard timing .5 per lb of boost after 8 lbs, so as to keep my low end driveability responsive. Thats a total of 2 full degree's in base retard to get to our 12psi goal.

I have an knockmeter in my car so I know whats going on with detonation and a wideband for AFR's, so that allows me to play around alot more then most. But since this is someone elses car, I'd say for sure, that 15 degree's as a base timing number would easily allow for 12 psi total boost. Especially with a small mist ow water injection. Which for the recortd may be variable..but no more so then your fuel If anything its is less variable since it remains at a constant pressure where as your fuel does not.

What does all that mean? I would run 15 degree's base timing and 12 psi.

Also, if you're using a SAFCII, then it's advancing your timing more then the stock map because of the airflow signal being altered. In which case I'd keep my boost under 9 psi until I had the BTM. Just for peace of mind.

The worst part about this is the bench racing factor. I'll do things differently then alot of people. That doesn't make what they want to do wrong...just a different option, and there are ALOT of options.

WD

[Craving4Boost]

yes alky and water injection does allow you to run more timing but it doesnt mean that at 12 psi, he can get away with stock timing. he's thinking that he can run stock timing at 12 psi and that the addition of an alky or water injection kit will make it safe....................we've seen the stock NA ecu advance timing to some high numbers in which at 12 psi, things would get ugly if he was on stock timing. Ur completely right tho in saying that u can run more timing with the alky/water injection as that is a proven fact.

no no...i said 8-12..not just 12..BIIIGG difference. although what i said was partially inaccurate i was just giving a range thats all. WD and others proved you can run 8psi with stock timing. so why not 10psi with stock timing if you have water/alcohol? is that not possible WD? i think its a great way to give someone a scare heh..if they smoke ya with .5*retard on the BTM...just turn on the water injection and put that BTM to 0*. see how much that extra UMP helps. "low" boost of course

Also WD, its a great thing you have 91 octane..(not for you of course) but im sure it gives a lot of us who have the same (Which is a lot) more hope. but just curious...is there a big difference b/w 91 and 93? how much more risk can you take safely OVER 91 when having 93 provided?

hope that wasnt too confusing

[sunnys14]

WD, i emailed you about the msd wiring to s14 dizzy. let me kno wsup.

since WD says its safe to run 15btdc @ 12psi on 91 octane, i guess its alright then

[WDRacing]

What are you using for fuel management Trung? Whats your AFR right now. Basically give me your setup. What I'll do to my car may not be what you want to do with yours.

WD

[Craving4Boost]

What I'll do to my car may not be what you want to do with yours.

oh we all know that...lol

[sunnys14]

MY NEW setup is as follows

9:1 wiseco pistons .20 overARP head studsCometic MLS hgstock head and valve train248 intake 232 exhaust cams15 480cc injectorssafc2plx widebandz32 maftial 38mm wastefidanza flywheelact xtreme clutchasp crank pulley

im looking to boost over 8psi with this setup. im greedy and i just want more boost!! just trying to squeeze the most as i can b4 my tax refund comes. i plan to get enthalpy within the next month

[KATwo40]

You guys are throwing around alot of BAD opinions that are at best unproven.

12:1 on boost and a daily driver safe?...No. In the 12:1 range you're going to need a subinjection like methonal or higher octane base fuel then I can get which is 91. If you are running in the 12:1 range and removing timing to compensate...then you're losing more power then you're making by leaning the fuel map out. 11.5 is the leanest I'd tune anyones car who is concerned with daily driving safety. Especially when you're dealing with a lack of timing control. When I used 10:1 AF ratio in one of the above posts it was purely an example. The point was that it WILL burn colder and everyone's results WILL be different.

WD

I know you're a mod on this forum and all, but please allow me to step in here and oppose your statements.

I ran 13:1 on my daily driver, 6psi for 6mos. (190whp, 200wtq, NON-INTERCOOLED, TD04H-13C very small turbo, 93 pump gas) Then, went up to 10psi, 12.5:1, intercooled (not dyno'd) for another 6mos. No ill effects. Hey, guess what...I retarded timing to compensate and still made good power. In fact, I was able to pretty much match what the compressor map said would be available...with a 370cc/Walbro255/SAFC/stock MAF setup.

It's a scientific FACT that optimum power is made at ratios between 12:1 and 13:1 for gasoline powered combustion engines running 91-93 octane fuel. YOU CAN NOT BURN ALL OF THE FUEL IN THE CYLINDER WHEN RUNNING A 10:1 AFR. YES, it will be a cooler cylinder temp, but it's a waste of fuel. You'll receive safer, more efficient power outputs from running a proper AFR and retarding timing to correct for knock.

Why don't you take a look at the fuel curves on some Enthalpy or JWT tunes. You'll find them near 12:1 with timing maps to accomodate engine load.

Water injection works, yes. But it is NOT a substitute for proper tuning, as you keep insisting it is. Again, there are more variables when using water injection than can be accomodated for. ANY professional tune technician will tell you that throwing water and fuel at a timing problem is a horrible solution to the problem. In fact, it shouldn't even be called a solution.

So you saw some old Dodges running good times on primitive setups. Hooray. This doesn't mean that primitive is better. Scientific advancements aren't made to show that old, inaccurate, cumbersome technology is superior, but rather to put that old stuff to rest.

Not trying to be rude, but while your tuning methods keep your engine from blowing up, it's not anything that should be labeled as a good example.

Furthermore, you're trying to sell this guy a water injection kit (what, $150 maybe?) when he can buy a fully tunable BikiRom for the cost of an SAFC2, which is $250! That's beautiful.
Modified by KATwo40 at 2:49 PM 1/25/2006

[Craving4Boost]

its nice that you experiemented with your car and your showing that you have support behind your opinions. but why are you aggravating WD? why cant you just say let me chime in on this one or i have to disagree. saying you'll probably lock this thread cause thats who you are is uncalled for.

[KATwo40]

its nice that you experiemented with your car and your showing that you have support behind your opinions. but why are you aggravating WD? why cant you just say let me chime in on this one or i have to disagree. saying you'll probably lock this thread cause thats who you are is uncalled for.

Agreed, duly noted, and edited to accomodate. In now way am I trying to aggrivate WD. Sorry 'bout that.

[WDRacing]

I'm all for discussion man, being a moderator doesn't mean I know everything. I'll be the first to tell you that.

I love to debate sht...especially if the other party has half a brain. Hell, thats usually how really good things come to pass, to dudes arguing over the best route to go about doing somthing. The compromise is almost always better.

[WDRacing]

This is my theory on bench tuning someone elses car. I stay on the safe side because I don't want to cause someone to have an issue or major breakage because of some advice I gave them. If I'm not there to help, then I will default to extra safe.

Honestly, I disagree with AFR's in the 12 range for a daily driver. Maybe it will maybe it won't detonate on a hot day. PErhaps the water coolant system on some guys car runs a simple 20 degree's hotter then your's, he could have detonation. What if his intake filter is pulling in nice hot under hood air...detonation may happen again. So running a lower AFR will always yield a safer boosted motor. Especially when running a NA timing map.

Which is another reason you CANNOT look at JWT or Enthalpy rom tunes as a comparison.

I will not debate however that the 12 AFR range is where most power is made, you're talking to the alcohol injection king my friend. I was one of the first guys to run ALcohol on any Skyline over in Japan. And I used enough to kill a whole heard of cowes. All on a system I made myself..well the first one was anyway. I eventually bought a variable spray type.

I digress...a simple difference of opinion is all that usually occurs here and I wasn't calling anyone out in particular with the note of bad info being spread, because it has definitly increased lately...topics in this thread aside.

If I lock a thread, which has happened twice in the last year, its for good reason.

I'm always available for any comments, good or bad, [email protected]

WD

[KATwo40]

This is my theory on bench tuning someone elses car. I stay on the safe side because I don't want to cause someone to have an issue or major breakage because of some advice I gave them. If I'm not there to help, then I will default to extra safe. ...WD

This is something on which we agree. A point I did not take into consideration earlier in this discussion.

[240SicknessX]

This is my theory on bench tuning someone elses car. I stay on the safe side because I don't want to cause someone to have an issue or major breakage because of some advice I gave them. If I'm not there to help, then I will default to extra safe.

for what its worth, i have given the same kind of conservative tune information out over the internet as well. i did not want to be the reason for why someones engine blew up. Yes if you are there personally you can do more of a fine tuning to the vehical to improve power, throttle responce and overall drivability, but thats not a risk im willing to take for over internet tuning suggestions.

[xsblacksx]

i didn't even read that cause i havent turboed my car

[LEMHEAD16]

WD you should make that Extra injection sticky soon. I want to run water and meth injection so i can turn the boost up when the track opens in April. I know you have messed around with it alot and I'd like to see what set-up you think works best

[Edub1]

Running rich, interfears with combustion and prevents the full energy of the fuel from being liberated. It will prevent detonation - but it is merely a poor substitute for proper spark retard.

I'd be willing to bet that proponents of the super rich method have never tried running a 12:1 or even a 12.5:1 and pulling more timing.

WD, I know you're a mod and all, and I'm sure you know a lot about cars. I also know that the running rich is popular. But read the post "you can be too rich." The guy who wrote it is a head engineer at Innovative Motor Sports. He explains in detail why A/F ratios should be kept optimum and spark retarded. At the verry least, it shows that contrary opinions are not necessarily bad and should not be dismissed out of hand.

I personally, will take the advise of 1 bonafied expert over 100 forum guys any day.

[Edub1]

I don't know how my post got all the way down here but whatever.

KATwo40 - how much timing are you pulling at 12:1? Where are you pulling it?

[deviousKA]

You guys running stock ecus on turbo setups are more than likely running off of the "knock" maps. The ecu has a algorithm where it listens to the sensor and sets certain flags to go to either normal or knock map. This does not happen instantly back and forth, if the ecu senses are certain amount of knock it will revert to knock map while continuing to monitor the knock sensor. If the knock signal does not meet a "non-knock" condition a certain amount of times in different conditions it will continue to run on the knock map, the ecu is constantly working with this I guess you could say as a self learning type operation.

I can guarantee that while boosted using the stock maps with a piggyback system, that the knock sensor does not meet enough "non-knock" conditions to run on the main map as much as you would think. Solution: modify your timing maps in the rom appropriately, particularly the main timing map under boost and knock sensing areas (which are indicated with offsets on the map).

There isnt really anything wrong with running on the knock maps, but understand that is what is happening even if you dont get indication with some "knock meter". Monitor timing with consult and compare to ecus timing map(s).

You can disable the knock functions of the ecu BTW, you would be better off with some headphones hooked to your sensor and wbo2/multiple egt monitoring. Personally, I would say screw the knock sensor, especially if you are running forged pistons as you will get all kinds of noise untill they are at temperature. The ecu would have already been in knock map condition after this and monitoring to see if it should go to main map, which may or may not happen. Unless you monitor the exact flag that the ecu is setting (which you can do with consult rom dump monitor) or you monitor your timing advance and reference to the ecus timing map, you will not know.

[Edub1]

Does the same type of thing happen between high & low octane maps?

Is it a good idea to have an agressive tune for your no-knock and a safer tune for the knock?