Question about Dealership (or salesperson) fraud

[juls]

ok so here's the situation:

About 9 months ago (when I was about 6 months pregnant), we bought a used 2003 g35 from the Infiniti dealership in Thousand Oaks, CA. Supposedly with a really great reputation for customer service. I didn't think to take the car straight to a mechanic after purchasing, since I figured Infiniti had claimed they had done their full inspection and it must be true. Anyways, I was wrong on many counts. The problems:

1) When we bought it, I asked the salesperson how long the tires would last, I said I wouldn't buy the car if we were going to need new ones in 6 months. He said the back ones were new, and the others were almost new, otherwise they would have replaced them.

The truth: in less than a month when we took it to get the rims replaced because the salesperson scraped them when backing up the car (it was in the agreement to get that fixed for free), the people that replaced the rims said we needed new tires right away. I went to the dealership to complain that I had been lied to, the dealership confirmed that we needed new tires, and the head lady, who tried to tell me they had lost all of their wear in the one month since we bought them, said we'd have to buy new tires.

2) When we bought it, it pulled a little to the side on the test drive. We both told the salesperson about it, he said it was normal, and because the road was slightly curved by the dealership. We noticed it still after we bought it. We took that issue up when we found out about the tires, they said the alignment was off. The same "head lady" tried to tell us it was caused by us hitting a rock in the road. We argued that it was there on the test drive and explained away, she agreed to a free alignment, but we'd have to buy new tires.

3) When we bought it, the salesperson had also scraped it when backing it up, there were two obvious marks on the back, those were in the sales agreement to be fixed. They painted it, but the wrong color. When we called to tell them that, they gave us the run around with contacting their paint guy and said he was unreachable over and over again, among other things. Needless to say, they still haven't fixed it.

4) minor issue: when we bought it, we were promised the manual, the same salesperson told us it was in a boat over the pacific multiple times, we recently called to try again, the service department claims it was never ordered.

Now to the part that's tipped me over the edge:5) When we test drove it, we noticed the ebrake didn't go all the way up, and the brakes squeaked. The salesperson told us that was due to the brakes being new After driving it for a while, we realized it was something more than that, considering the ebrake won't hold on a hill and the brakes failed at times. When we took it in for our 30k mile service and mentioned that, they claimed the reason for all the issues is because we drove with the ebrake on (which we haven't) PLUS the issue was there when we bought it and we complained about it. Now they want us to pay 1500 dollars to replace the CRACKED rotors in the rear which was supposedly new when we bought it, even though it was squealing and not braking at times.

To me, I can't see this any other way than them trying to pull the wool over our eyes, at least the salesperson, and the dealership for thinking this is all ok. I really expected more from the infiniti name. Another minor issues since we bought it is we can't get hot air on just one side of the car intermittently, which sucks because dual climate control was one of the major reasons I let my husband buy it (plus it would make him happy.... if it worked....)Anyways, my question is, if you actually managed to finish this long rant... does anyone have any idea of what we can do? Besides just give up?

And I'd appreciate no flames of we should have gotten an inspection right after purchasing and all that... with the infiniti name and a 32k price tag and being pregnant and stupid at the time, for some reason that didn't seem as necessary as it does now....I know I made a mistake in trusting them and their name.... but I really think I at least have some recourse since they purposely lied to me over and over again and can't even seem to keep the story straight on all the lies...(i.e.... problems that we addressed when purchasing are obviously actual problems and not something "normal" for this car)
Modified by juls at 9:08 PM 4/17/2007

[soul_hfk]

id say the saleman gave it to u.... he most likely just told u what he need to to get u in the car then out the door.........

[yzarcur]

I feel for you and hope you realize you have rights and you can file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau. If when you purchased the car and got any of those items in writing and they have not fixed them then you have a justifiable complaint.

You can also let the dealership know you will be notifying Infiniti Corporate or Nissan Corporate of the service you received at that dealership and how the deceived you in the purchase of the vehicle.

I don't want to tell you what you should have done at the time you purchased the vehicle because it doesn't really help you now, but you should know the car you purchased is not the norm for the vehicle. It really is a good car and if these problems ever get fixed you will see that too.

[zozoka1212]

don't let it go without a fight. you have the right.

zozoka

[champagneG35]

I'm the "husband" referred to above. I'd also like to add the $1500 was their "adjusted" price after I complained to the service manager. It was originally $1750.

Currently I'm waiting on the Factory Infinity Consumer Affairs to "contact the dealership and talk to them" while my car sits there hanging in limbo. The gentleman I spoke with said he'd get back to me in 24-48hrs but that he'd have to go off of what the dealerships diagnosis is because they didn't have the parts to inspect there. Meaning that unless the dealership says it's "possible" to have occurred any other way it sounds like I'm stuck. He said if they say it may have another reason then they'd investigate further.

I tried to tell them that the only reason I take my car to them is due to the warranty, that I do all my own work to my other vehicles because I don't trust many mechanics to do it right. I told them I can take apart an engine, repair it, and put it back together and it will run, not many people can do that outside of the profession. I wanted them to know that I'm not an idiot that's going to drive around town with the e-brake on. I said I've known people who drift these cars, not that I do, but they use that e-brake all the time while driving to get the rear tires to lock up and I'm not hearing complaints of cracked rotors from them. You can't physically get the tires to lock up on mine considering I have to use both hands to yank the e-brake up far enough to stop it from rolling down a hill when parked, and they're trying to tell me that I drove around town like that ?? I said I have done canyon driving, but it is designed for it, it's designed for performance or they wouldn't have thrown a sport suspension and brembo brake package on it and still given it a warranty, they're designed to handle heat on the brakes. Come'on seriously even if I had left the parking brake on (which I know damn sure I haven't) it didn't grip hard enough to overheat and crack the rotors as their suggesting. Especially with an idiot light staring you in the face even the most brain dead people notice that within a half mile or so. The e-brake is designed to slow you down gradually in the event your brakes fail not crack your rotors for doing so. It really frustrates me it seems they wont even consider a possible defective piston or something that may have partially released each time (or once) but not fully which would be no fault of the operator of the vehicle should something like that have happened. Course they'd probably say well it works fine now

Modified by champagneG35 at 6:54 AM 4/18/2007
Modified by champagneG35 at 6:55 AM 4/18/2007

[joe603]

"Caveat Emptor"

Thats the used car game....you gotta cover your a@@.

All things seem relativly minor though; it could be much worse.

You can replace your rear rotors with aftermarket for a fraction of that price. In fact, you could do all 4, with new pads for less (non-Brembo)!!

http://www.stillen.com/product...&c=BR

Sorry to hear about your trouble though...some dealers just suck.

[zozoka1212]

I guess you know which dealer not go next time. Make sure you spread the word to everybody(locally) what happened. Hopefully the infiniti will do something for you.Keep us updated please.

Zozoka
Modified by zozoka1212 at 6:23 AM 4/24/2007

[AZhitman]

Welcome aboard, Mike and Julie...

I have the same car, so I'll drop my 2 cents:

The e-brake emits a beeping alarm when it's engaged and the car is in motion. Therefore, it's damn near impossible to drive around with it on.

Second, the e-brake doesn't clamp against the rotor, it actuates a "shoe" inside the rotor hat, much like a drum brake of old.

Third, there was a class-action lawsuit and settlement on G35 Coupe Brembos for 03-04. If your car has NOT had the brakes replaced on Infiniti's dime, then they're on the hook for it (to my knowledge).

Fourth, there's nothing saying you HAVE to take it to THAT dealer. You can go elsewhere, which I'd encourage you to do one this is settled.

I think you might be out of luck on the tire issue. That's something that needs to be handled in negotiations, and it wasn't. No one can predict how long tire tread will last, and the salesman is a retard for trying.

The "pulling" is likely a tire issue (mine was). It's not critical, wait and see what happens with the other issues - an alignmment is cheap, and new tires are in the cards anyway.

Get your scuffs and damage fixed, or file a police report - The shop guy hit something with your car, the dealership has insurance for that. DEMAND it be fixed immediately. There's lots of body shops in town.

We'll be waiting to hear what transpires, and we can put you in touch with Corporate if things continue to go poorly.

I hope you both stick around, even after a resolution is reached.

[Beancooker]

Hitman has some good ideas. If those don't work, and you may want to do this anyways, contact your State Attorney General. That is what they are there for, and at least in Wa State, The SAG, LOVES to rake shady businesses over the coals.

[G_whizz]

Sorry for your mis-fortune...that is complete

Too bad for them though...NICO is the largest site on the net for Infiniti/Nissans owners and potential buyers.

This is definitley going to hurt them in the long run...

Hmm, I should see if we can start a permanent thread in here for Dealers who have great C.S. and others who are just basically crooks..

I would definitely spread the word locally though...

[champagneG35]

Welcome aboard, Mike and Julie...

I have the same car, so I'll drop my 2 cents:

The e-brake emits a beeping alarm when it's engaged and the car is in motion. Therefore, it's damn near impossible to drive around with it on.

Second, the e-brake doesn't clamp against the rotor, it actuates a "shoe" inside the rotor hat, much like a drum brake of old.

Third, there was a class-action lawsuit and settlement on G35 Coupe Brembos for 03-04. If your car has NOT had the brakes replaced on Infiniti's dime, then they're on the hook for it (to my knowledge).

Fourth, there's nothing saying you HAVE to take it to THAT dealer. You can go elsewhere, which I'd encourage you to do one this is settled.

I think you might be out of luck on the tire issue. That's something that needs to be handled in negotiations, and it wasn't. No one can predict how long tire tread will last, and the salesman is a retard for trying.

The "pulling" is likely a tire issue (mine was). It's not critical, wait and see what happens with the other issues - an alignmment is cheap, and new tires are in the cards anyway.

Get your scuffs and damage fixed, or file a police report - The shop guy hit something with your car, the dealership has insurance for that. DEMAND it be fixed immediately. There's lots of body shops in town.

We'll be waiting to hear what transpires, and we can put you in touch with Corporate if things continue to go poorly.

I hope you both stick around, even after a resolution is reached.

Thanks for this info AZ, I don't suppose you know where I can find a formal write up on this class action suit do ya ? When I took it in to the Oxnard, CA dealership this morning the service guy said he hadn't heard of any class action lawsuit for the Brembos but knew the non-brembo brakes had a known problem. He also said it doesn't mean it didn't exist just he hadn't heard of it, so I was hoping I could find viable proof, print it out, and take it in to them.

[AZhitman]

http://www.theautochannel.com/....html

http://www.consumeraffairs.com....html

[champagneG35]

Thanks. Hmmm...it doesn't specifically mention the brembo braking system though. I think they'd through it right back in my face again and say that it was related to the non-brembo systems which they knew about and did warranty.

Update:Oxnard service says they can't see a reason why the rotors are cracked other than they are, they mentioned there was some whitish marks but no significant pad wear or bluish tint indicating excessive heat from the e-brake. They also said (which I knew) that they're going to get hot anyway with brake use and temperatures sometimes reaching over 400 degrees. Again they are brembos designed to handle this and much more I don't have the exact figures but I know they're used on tracks which sometimes start glowing they get so hot.

Anyway they called Infinity of Thousand Oaks, CA and told them or rather left a message about what they found that they are cracked and need to be replaced but that they aren't going to tell me that it was caused by something I did. I spoke with him and asked if he could reiterate to them that he saw no reason they should be cracked due to heat or driving with the e-brake up. He said that the other service manager would probably call him back and he'd go over everything again and also try to call a little later.

My hope is in him telling them that, that it might give me more fighting power with T.O. Infinity saying that it wasn't my fault and since I bought the car from them and not Oxnard maybe I can go back to T.O. and get it covered.

~~~Waiting and praying to the car gods that everything works out.
Modified by champagneG35 at 11:36 AM 4/19/2007

[C-Kwik]

If you do end up paying for the rotor replacements yourself, don't go cheap. Not all rotors are built the same. The alloy content in a rotor can be varied for either strength and longevity, affordability, or somewhere in between. Just looking at Trinet's site, their FAQ indicates their rotors are made of Cast Iron like all other rotors. Nothing to elaborate what their alloy content is or how it is better or as good as top notch rotors.

[champagneG35]

noted and thank you.

C-kwik sent you an email

[juls]

well what I got from them is they're allowed to sell me a car with the ebrake out of alignment and basically say it's ok or anything they want to get the car sold. I really expected more from the infiniti name. Oh well, guess I'll have to see if my lawyer can get any of this settled.

[rydwhite]

Sorry to hear about all of the issues. Infiniti Customer Service has taken a bit of a decline recently. Here is just another prime example of why.

Good luck getting everything worked out.

[Q45tech]

Don't confuse the 200 independently owned franchised dealers with Infiniti Customer Service.

We have 5 in ATL and they vary across the spectrum and 3 are owned by the same company and each is different.

By the way the Nalley Group just purchased Troncalli Infiniti both trace their history back to 1954 founders and competitors.

Everyone should have a parttime job selling cars then you would learn how to DEAL with DEALERS.

[J-Owner]

I agree, don't confuse the Infiniti product (which is good and reliable) with a bad dealership.

While Infiniti corporate should work harder to correct bad dealerships that has nothing to do with the car itself.

The dealership in question (if they are ethical and stand behind their inventory) which apparently your dealership does not, then they should not have sold you the car in that condition. I would definetely file a lawsuit.

If I could stomach the job I would take a part time job as a car salesman to figure out how they screw people over. I still find it dumbfounding that I can finance $50 million dollar commercial real estate projects but I can't figure out how a car dealer puts it to you. CRAZY!!

Just my $0.02.

[mask0425]

Try http://ripoffreport.com/ in addition to BBB. Should you get nowhere with Consumer Affairs reps, stop wasting time with them and insist on speaking with a Regional Manager. When/if you get an RM on the line ask them specifically about Goodwill funds Infiniti allocates for out of warranty repairs. I had good luck on one out of two tries doing it.

They replaced a BOSE head unit on my j30t a couple of months after the warranty ran out (that was years ago). Unfortunately they refused to replace the front brakes on my '03 G35 Sedan about 1,000 miles past the extended coverage. That was despite the fact that I brought the car to Santa Monica Infiniti specifically to check the brakes right before it expired and they told me that the brakes were at about 40%. They tried to convince that I used up about a third of the pad over just 1,000 miles. Yeah, right!

I never tried Infiniti of TO myself, but my experiences with Santa Monica, Miller in Van Nuys, Glendale and now defunct Beverly Hills ALL left something or a lot (more typical) to be desired. Still searching for a good service dept here in SoCal.

Now, most importantly, how's the newest member of your family?
Modified by mask0425 at 4:43 PM 4/23/2007

[mask0425]

BTW, the extended coverage on the brakes I was referring to, is 3 yrs/ 36K Mi whichever comes first. Infiniti offered it on '03 G35's due to pre-mature pad wear. I ended up getting aftermarket pads (something Warner) and they are great. I've had them for over a year now, still plenty of compound left. The side benefits are NO brake dust and smoother braking - the OEM pads were too grabby for my taste anyway.

Good luck with your fight!
Modified by mask0425 at 2:57 PM 4/20/2007

[Q45tech]

The problem is a dealership is 6 separate different profit centers: New Car Sales, Financing, Used Car Sales, Service Labor, and Service Parts, plus External Wholesale Parts.

The only Profitable areas are Parts, Finance, and Used Car Sales.

They breakeven on new car sales and service labor due to facility cost and inventory charges.

Parts sales to customers [service department is a customer] is the most profitable, wholesale parts next, used cars are next, then finance.

If it wasn't required by Nissan no dealership would have a money losing SERVICE DEPARTMENT..........they would just sit back and sell parts to external shops.

[champagneG35]

Update:

So here's what I got from Oxnard giving their opinion that there was not sufficient evidence to blame the problem on me or due to heat buildup from the e-brake. The reply from one consultant "I'm sorry I thought you were the only owner of the car, knowing it was used it could have been the other owner but facts are still facts and they're not warrantied". So I called Infinity's Factory Consumer Affairs again, and got no where they basically said they couldn't do anything that if the dealerships did not want to cover them then that's it.

So sometime later in the day a customer service rep called to see how my service went . So I told her what was going on, and She told me she was going to e-mail the service director at the dealership that she had final say. So the director calls and we have at it for about 10 minutes when she realises I'm not backing down she says, well we're not making any ground here so I'll have the general manager call you. General manager calls and once again all she offers is a "VIP" discount but they wouldn't cover them.

So I then said well if I bought them myself and brought the parts in would you at least put them on with no charge, she said she had to check and then came back and said no we can't do that. That's total !! She's the GM if she says install it with no charge then they install it with no charge simple as that she's the highest person there, they aren't over her head and are going to tell her sorry no we wont do that .

Anyway so I'm finished with Thousand Oaks Infinity and am now going to start taking my car out to Oxnard, someplace where they at least if absolutely nothing else wont accuse you of doing something they really have no way of knowing the chain of events that may have caused it. They also seem less uptight and were willing had I bought the car there to at least buy the rotors if I bought the pads knowing it very well and probably was the other owner in their eyes and unfortunately I got screwed for it.

Another thing the salesman there I was talking to said he had an 03 as well and asked if I had intake yet. I said no. So instead of mentioning about buying it from them he said to go check out "EverythingG35.com" or ebay and I could probably snag an Ingen system fairly cheap and it would add considerable and noticeable hp. He also said in about a month he was thinking about upgrading his brembos to the slotted type and I could buy his old ones for like $100. Now I don't know about anyone else here but that said something to me about how pushy or not pushy they were and how much they'd just try to help you get what you might want instead of thinking about their own commission.

[champagneG35]

Another Update: Got ahold of the regional Parts/Service Manager for the west coast area here. He said he's going to call the dealership tomorrow and give it a shot with the service director there and call me back. Don't know if my chances just improved or what side he was leaning towards but I guess will see.

[zozoka1212]

lets just hope this would be your turning point from here everything would be better.

zozoka

[C-Kwik]

He also said in about a month he was thinking about upgrading his brembos to the slotted type and I could buy his old ones for like $100.

Hope it works out, but make sure you spec his rotors before you purchase them if you go this route. The OE rotors are pretty soft and many times need replacement by the time the pads need to be changed.

[AZhitman]

Champagne, I fwded a link to this thread to the GM at TO Infiniti.

The lack of response tells me they could give a damn.

[AZhitman]

I ended up getting aftermarket pads (something Warner) and they are great. I've had them for over a year now, still plenty of compound left. The side benefits are NO brake dust and smoother braking - the OEM pads were too grabby for my taste anyway.

Remind me not to drive in front of you.

"Grabby" is good - there's a REASON the G35 stopped shorter than the Vette in '03 - Superior pads and rotors.

[mask0425]

Remind me not to drive in front of you.

"Grabby" is good - there's a REASON the G35 stopped shorter than the Vette in '03 - Superior pads and rotors.

I have not driven the Brembo-equipped coupe long enough to compare, but the brakes on the '03 sedan have been notoriously known for their grabbiness which should not be confused with braking power. FYI, Motor Trend tested two automatic G35 sedans in '03 a couple of months apart and commented both times on this matter. The first sedan with sport package and Goodyear CS-D's (same as mine) stopped in about 110 ft. The other one with basic suspension and Bridgestone Turanza EL-42's (I think... trying HARD to recall the details from 4 years ago!!!) needed about 50 more ft with the same brakes. I did not particularly care for the brakes that would bring the car to a screeching halt upon as little as a sneeze anywhere near the brake pedal. The crazy amount of brake dust from OEM pads was very annoying too (front wheels ALL black two days after a wash). I did some research and ended up going with Wagner ThermoQuiet http://www.theautochannel.com/....html. They seem to have a higher percentage of ceramic compound than OEM pads resulting in very quiet and almost dust-free use. Took a little "unlearning" since these pads require much more of an effort in the beginning. Overall, the brakes now feel a lot closer to those of the 2005 and 2007 G35 sedans I drove than the original pads. The ceramic pads are known for the "slippery" feeling as they engage - just have to get used to applying pressure differently. I had a few very close calls where I had to stand on the brakes and they performed adequately. As matter of fact, I outbraked an MBZ SL500 a month ago to the point that the guy popped me in the back and pushed me into an SUV ahead (just got my car back yesterday one month and about $11,500 later).

PS: Hitman, don't mean to hijack this thread - the original matter IS very important. So, I have no objection if you or any other mod would like to move it elsewhere. It'd be nice to get other people's feedback on this subject.

PPS: Great to know that the mods here are paid generously enough not to care about being rear-ended

[C-Kwik]

I'd love to see this article with the 50 foot longer stopping distance. I've checked Motor trend's Archive online and have not seen it. However, it's possible that you may be confusing the poor result's publisher with Car and Driver, who uses a 70 foot stopping distance as their benchmark. Road and Track and Motor Trend tests a 60 foot stopping distance. An extra 50 feet to stop from 70 would be about right. Just a thought...

While any reasonable brake pad should be able to bring a wheel to the lock-up point, the big diffrence for a typical street pad is in the initial bite. The actual difference in friction can easily be made up for by increasing pedal pressure. But when you consider that there is a time delay between when you first start pushing in the pedal, to the time you acheive impending lock up, you'll realize that the longer this time is, the longer your stopping distance becomes. To put this in perspective, a car travelling at 60 mph travels 88 feet per second. In just one-tenth of a second, you will travel 8.8 feet. Any delay in braking from the lack of initial bite will occur at the speed at which the car is travelling when the braking starts. So if it delays your braking by even a tenth of a second, you'll potentially need 8.8 feet to stop.

This may seem trivial, but I'll tell you this. Most rear end accidents don't occur at speed. By the time the impact occurs, much of the speed has been scrubbed off during braking. If you can buy yourself an extra 8.8 feet, it would eliminate a percentage of rear end accidents.

In the case of your accident, the MBZ likely didn't get outbraked so much as the driver started braking too late. To my knowledge, magazines measure the braking by actually starting from a higher speed and measuring from when the car gets to the target starting speed. This ignores braking response. They usually comment on it, but it tends to be subjective.