Q45 Timing Chain Guide R&R advice

[DAEDALUS]

Lemme guess...$30 Sears puller.

Can't torch the pulley. You might destroy the rubber in it.

[tangalora]

Here's how Scott Jackson removed the pulley:

That photo is awesome. Of course, I clearly saw that photo when I first did my homework but what didn't impress upon me at the time was the fact that Scott WIRED that puller in! Maybe that's his sly trick to keep those ungainly legs from kicking akimbo every time I tried to position them on the pulley!

You see, you have to realize the large pulley puller weighs a few pounds and has multiple pieces which sprawl about with a mind of their own. Lying on my back after work, lit with only a shop light, my two hands just weren't able to get the teeth to sink into anything solid and hold the legs in position and get the center bolt lined up. Plus, the damage caused by the too-smaller pulley puller was fresh on my mind ... but maybe I gave up too soon. Your photo gives me some courage to try it again (with a spool of wire at my side). Clearly there's SOMETHING for those puller teeth to sink into.

By the way, what are those THINGS wedged inside the pulley puller (see photo)? Are each puller legs doublets (mine are singlets)?

What's that allen key doing there in the middle of this operation?

I need every trick we can muster. Do those "things" help?

[tangalora]

I looked up Sears' pullers and was astounded to see almost fifteen of 'em on their web pages.

Not all are available in the stores, but, for the next person to benefit, I summarized the lower-end choices below (in approximate price order).----------------------------------------------------------------------

Note: I had to vastly shrink the photo so I hope we can read it.

[tangalora]

The low-end pullers are above; here are the higher-end pullers.


Modified by tangalora at 12:19 AM 12/18/2004

[tangalora]

Note that Jesda's puller, if it has inside & outside legs, would be different from all the pullers summarized above.

Did Scott use a puller with both inside & outside legs?

[Jesda]

Hmm, good question. You'd have to email Scott on that one:http://nicoclub.com/zerouser?c...14876

While he was doing the actual removal, I was inside the house playing on the computer. I came outside every once in a while to take pictures.I wish I had stayed and watched.

[DAEDALUS]

Odd I've never had too big a problem with the puller slipping off. The jaws just need something to rest against, and are fine once tensioned up right. I'm pretty sure I have the "Large Gear Puller" listed at $34.99 above.

[tangalora]

- I think I'll pick up a more suitable puller at Sears.- I'll get either the one you have or the closest posi one (which holds the legs together presumably).

Now about that mysterious object.

Is that an allen wrench I see in the middle of Scott's pulley pulling setup?

[911/Q45]

Looks like an Allen wrench and two chisels to hold the arms in the right spot.

[Cdon851]

Looks like an Allen wrench and two chisels to hold the arms in the right spot.

Whoever was trying to remove that pulley must be using the two chisels, allen wrench, strap wrench, and cinch wire as an insurance policy to keep those arms on.

That tells me it is probably difficult to do this job with a "normal" tool.

You may need to try a few of the sears tools to get one to fit. Buy them all then return the ones you do not use. Your summary of tools in the photo was really great but the text added was too long and wore me out. I am sure you meant well but but I suggest you ask the moderators to remove all of that as it slows us down trying to follow you vicariously.

[DAEDALUS]

The $34.99 puller in action. Look familiar?



Keep in mind you have to have enough clearance such that you aren't at risk of damaging the AC condenser. Even with the radiator out of the way I didn't have very much extra room.

[911/Q45]

Another reason to do it (carefully) with the crank bolt removed.

[s13sr20chris]

that is the same puller i have. i have not yet used it on a q45 but it has worked on every nissan model produced in the last 10 years. i believe the large puller it the hot ticket and maybe a strap wrench to back it up but that should not be nescessary. i would steer clear of the bolt grip puller for this application. that is something i would only try as a last resort. also, no heat on crankshafts. i have seen too many problems with this. one thing i do for a really stubborn crank pulley is to put the puller on it with a good deal of tension and spray with rust penetrant. then i whack it randomly with a hammer(gentle taps will do) and work some pry bars around it. it is absolutely critical that there is NO LATERAL FORCE APPLIED. at least not any noticable amount. the pulley must be pulled on its axis to avoid binding as was mentioned above.

[tangalora]

The $34.99 puller in action. Look familiar?

Yes.

One fact in your photo is worth a ton of written advice, in that I can easily determine exactly WHERE you put the puller legs.You didn't put the puller legs in either place where I tried putting them:- At the outermost lip, I chipped that lip (using a too-small puller)- At the innermost lip, I couldn't get a bite (using a too-large puller).

You seemed to solve that problem by using a puller intermediate in size to mine and by using a pulley lip intermediate in location to those that I unsuccessfully attempted.

Therefore, after work and immediately after my weekly scuba class, I visited the local Sears store. Despite their 14 advertised options, only one of the POSI pullers were in stock (the 80 dollar one which is too-small). Two other pullers were on the shelves, again a too-small one and the $34.99 eight-inch-spread by six-and-1/2 inch-reach two-legged gear puller you've been recommending all along (#46903). Since only one puller opened more than 7 inches, they didn't leave me any choice but the right one.

It's too late to try tonight ... but I'll let you know the results.

P.S.Interestingly the Craftsman unlimited warranty is void if we fail to oil the pressure screw upon first use. I have nothing against oil, but, they make it sound like the thing will explode into a million pieces if you don't oil it. Why?
Modified by tangalora at 12:24 AM 12/18/2004

[DAEDALUS]

I feel safer leaving the bolt in but just my opinion. I did remove the washer. Eventually, after iterating a few times (pull, loosen bolt, pull, loosen bolt) the bolt only had a couple threads in and I was able to work the pulley off the last .25" or so by hand.Lubing the threads will decrease stress. Presumably there will be less chance of the screw failing.

[squeefoo]

My only unanswered question at this point is I wonder why would not using oil would void a warranty? Does oil reduce "stress" that much?

gnite ...

Pullers like yours generally have what is known as "ACME" threads, very square for high tension; but with a lot of flat surface which may gall or smear together when under stress. Since the surfaces are "flat" and prone to galling, the best things to use are light grease or a heavy oil such as differential oil, since these contain greater amounts of extreme pressure lubricants like sulfur or zinc and phosphorous (which is why these sometimes stink). You don't need much, but it's messy nonetheless.

[Cdon851]

Quote »Can a system administrator remove that stuff without removing the two composite gear-puller photos?[/quote]Much better! I can now read the articles mostly by scrolling photo by photo and get the gist of what is going on. Thanks.

That unusual ACME thread shape information was interesting!

[tangalora]

The learning never stops.

I picked up these hints from Scottsdale Infinit after my lapidary class today:- Don't break the crankshaft pulley (it costs over $250)- Scottsdale technicians do not use gear pullers to remove that pulley- They unscrew a bolt or two & use the harmonic balancer puller instead

[tangalora]

Here's a photo of the 18 parts (13 part numbers) in Joe's updated kit.13085-60U01 (2x) - Chain guides $7.19 each = $14.3813085-60U11 (2x) - Chain guides $7.19 each = $14.3813091-60U01 (1x) - Chain guide (right hand side) = $54.4313091-60U11 (1x) - Chain guide (left hand side) = $54.43---13070-60U03 (1x) - Chain tensioner (right hand side) = $49.9013070-60U12 (1x) - Chain tensioner (left hand side) = $49.9013075-60U02 (4x) - Bolts (tensioner) $1.40 each = $5.60---15041-60U00 (1x) - Oil pump chain = $37.0115073-60U10 (1x) - Oil pump chain guide (tension?) = $40.4815073-60U00 (1x) - Oil pump chain guide (slack?) = $6.66---13510-60U00 (1x) - Front cover crankshaft seal = $5.3413079-60U01 (1x) - Chain tensioner gasket (driver side) = $0.55999MP-A7007P(1x) - Silicone gasket material (RTV red, 5 ounce tube) = $14.99

P.S. I wonder why Daedalus' kit shown in thread http://www.nicoclub.com/zerothread?id=92729 appears to show double the number of parts. That is, I count 25 distinct parts in Daedalus' photo at http://www.ozop.net/image004.jpg (www.ozop.net/image004.jpg).

Is that due to the timing chains and the oil pump being replaced?

[DAEDALUS]

That's a picture of the standard Scottsdale kit at the time, when TJ was working there. Besides the 2 timing chains, I see there are also the 8 plenum gaskets in there, plus hardware for the tensioner I think.

[tangalora]

Yippeee! Slightly worse for the wear, our 90 Q45 crankshaft harmonic balancer pulley is off (using the simplified Daedalus approach modeled after Jesda).

Having already chipped the pulley in two places (fortuitously diametrically opposed), I had been basically frozen into inaction for a week until something cracked the glass between me and my engine.

What transpried to break my indecision was my helpful neighbor returned last night asking about his industrial strength gear puller. Ummm... Uh ... ug ... he was so well meaning that I didn't have the heart to tell him I bought a smaller replacement or that the Infiniti technicians use a different tool altogether ... so I told him the truth. His 3-jaw puller was too large, heavy, and wiggly for me to lock on the pulley.

Without hesitation, he removed a leg from his puller & crawled under our Q, lying on the dirty cement with clean clothes on. I didn't argue. After a minute or two of helping him position the remaining two legs, he yelled out "quick! Grab a 3/4 inch wrench and start twisting". Together we had positioned the two legs of the puller roughly on the pulley in the same position as Daedalus had (as we couldn't get between the pulley & lower timing cover). I was glad I followed your suggestion to remove the radiator as there was less than an inch to spare at the condensor. Then, after a single twist, I belatedly remembered the bolt with the fat washer; so we stopped and removed that washer (I now realize this is what killed me the first time I tried - I didn't think to remove the washer) and placed the bolt back risking only the barest of threads of bite taken up.

I was scared (for the pulley) so I turned that 3/4 inch box wrench slowly. Nothing seemed to happen. Turn after turn. I expected the pulley to crack again so I concentrated on that third pulley lip. Then, together, we realized it was stealthily moving out. It wasn't even complaining. Not a sound. It was just slowly pulling away from the lower timing cover, perhaps a half millimeter at a time as I twisted and twisted and twisted and twisted. I guess I had expected something to pop after all that fuss I made last week but the pulley just obediently moved farther and farther away from the engine. In hindsight, it was an easy job with two people. The extra set of hands replaced Jesda's wire, strap, chisels, and allen wrench (Jesda ... you really should have been helping Scott instead of snapping those wonderful photos...)

I insisted on being the one to pull it off the end and I couldn't get it off the crankshaft. I wiggled and jostled. My neighbor just looked at me and said "Take the bolt off". My embarrassment was complete.

[tangalora]

Suggestions for the next person to remove a Q45 crankshaft pulley:

Remove crankshaft bolt:- Tools = 30mm socket, 22" chain/strap wrench, 18" breaker & 30" cheater bar- Wrap a 20 inch protective strip of tire inner tube (or old ribbed belt) around the pulley- Cinch the chain or strap wrench around the pulley (any location is OK)- Turn the bolt counter-clockwise until the chain wrench wedges somewhere- Check that the chain wrench wedged somewhere safe & solid- Easily twist the bolt off using leverage (it will not take much effort)- Actual time should be less than 15 minutes from start to finish

Remove crankshaft pulley:- One assumption is the radiator has already been removed- Tools = 30 mm socket, 24" ratchet, 30" cheater pipe- Replace crankshaft bolt and place the 30mm socket on the bolt- Twist the engine CLOCKWISE (to set #1 piston at compression TDC)- Line up the CAS pointer to 270 degrees (facing engine) to set #1 compression- Line up the left-most pulley notch with the timing-cover dowel to set #1 TDC- Remove the crankshaft bolt without disturbing from #1 compression TDC- With hands, manually tweak back to #1 compression TDC (if necessary)- REMOVE the fat washer & replace the bolt loosly on the crankshaft- Make sure only a few threads are engaged & that the washer is off!- Tools = Sears 2-jaw puller #46903) or equivalent, 3/4 inch box wrench- With a helper, position two puller jaws on the third lip of the pulley- Place a 3/4" box wrench on the puller shaft & twist clockwise- Easily twist the pulley off using leverage (it will not take much effort)- Actual time should be less than 15 minutes from start to finish

Lesson learned (redundant):- The job should take about a half hour (indeed, the actual job of the job did)- The right tools MUST be employed & a helper is helpful- A half-dozen Q-specific knowledge tidbits must be known (see above)

[tangalora]

How bad does this crankshaft harmonic balancer pulley look to you?

a) One chip is on the inner lip and one is on the outer lipb) Luckily, they are roughly 180 degrees apart c) And, they are quite small (in comparison to the surprisingly heavy pulley)

Do these chips look bad enough to you to warrant a $250 pulley replacement?What's the worst thing that can happen if I don't?

[squeefoo]

No, Mine is like that -just make sure that nothing can cut the belt from rubbing -use a file. Really don't think the balance is going to be affected at all. It's just a few grams of metal very close to the center -not a problem. It's a good thing the timing marks aren't broken off!

[Q45tech]

Ugh! the broken pulley. Where did all that rust on idlers and ps come from?Dirt? needs a good steaming/pressure washing degunking.........careful around rubber hoses.

[elwesso]

Ugh! the broken pulley. Where did all that rust on idlers and ps come from?Dirt? needs a good steaming/pressure washing degunking.........careful around rubber hoses.

Probably from the months of sitting.....

[tangalora]

Is Dennis' point that the chipped pulley is the least of our problems?

The rust wasn't there (see photo taken the day of the accident) when the engine was running; it came from months of sitting outside and quite a few washings (by me and by rain).

As for cleanliness, if you think the engine is still dirty ... you should see what it looked like when we started; there was a 1 mm thick covering of dirty grease everywhere. It was ugly. And messy.

How often do you recommend a Q owner wash the engine?What's the best method?

For the oil pan, I piecemeal sprayed three 16oz cans of spray gunk and wiped with a shop rag. For the front covers, I again used a can of gunk except I needed a toothbrush for the nooks and crannies. Is that the suggested method? Is there something better for a car on blocks that can't get out of the rain?

BTW, I assumed the first few miles would clean moving parts of surface rust.Do you suggest a more active approach like sanding them shiny before putting them back?

[s13sr20chris]

if that crank pulley were mine i would just clean it up with a file or something and reuse. as for washing engines...i am not a big fan. seen too much water get in too many places it should not be. if i see a dirty engine that needs to be cleaned, i spray with brake clean since it evaporates so much more quickly.

[Q451990]

I wouldn't worry about the rust much... it will go away with use. Q2 had some of that during her long wait for me to get around to having her chain guides replaced, suspension replacement, etc. Now you'd never know it.

Heath

[tangalora]

Dennis has a point though.

For my chainguide R&R writeup (if I ever get to it) what do you think about this new recommendation for those who DIY outside nights & weekends?

a) WASH engine thoroughly before beginning timing chain guide removal ...b) Lightly OIL all exposed unpainted steel pulleys, faceplates, & threaded holes/boltsc) (somehow) REMOVE the layer of oil on pulleys just before re-assembly

Does this sugestion (for the next person) make sense?