Q45 Timing Chain Guide R&R advice

[911/Q45]

Wow. How come your Q is so clean. I'm embarrassed to show pics of mine. Really. How do you keep your Q so clean?

I notice in almost all the photos so far, that the two "upper timing covers" are generally off the car (except in one of your photos above). I'm hoping to leave those upper timing covers alone.

Heath's Q only had 40K miles on it when the photos were taken.

If you work on the lower front cover with the oil pan off you should be able to leave the upper front covers undisturbed.

[Q451990]

Your t-stat is probably original. It doesn't have to be removed. As 911/Q45 said, the car had 47K when the guides were replaced. It also has a nice degreasing bath right before my trip to T3...

I was very happy to see that the inside of the engine was clean too.

The upper timing cover (that covers the head) on the right bank was removed because Byron was having a hard time getting the front cover back on. Actually the cover was being stuborn on the left side, but the right side was easier to remove becasue of not having to pull the CAS and retime.

You did the right thing removing the radiator. The two small hoses leading to tubes on the left tank are your radiator "cooler" hoses. Also, your t-stat looks like it's ready for replacement - so you didn't waste your time pulling it.

Heath

[tangalora]

You did the right thing removing the radiator. The two small hoses leading to tubes on the left tank are your radiator "cooler" hoses.

When I removed those two quarter-inch rubber hoses at the metal tube junction under the power steering pump pulley, I was surprised to see them bleed red. Only then did I realize these weren't "green" engine-coolant hoses. I've since found out on transmission-related Nico threads these hoses are for the transmission heat exchanger. At the time, I plugged them with a pencil. Today I bought bona fide small-bore curved hose clamps so that the next time I'll be better prepared (see photo below).

Quote »Your t-stat looks like it's ready for replacement ...[/quote]Will do. Twenty years ago I overheated on a cold February day on the Pulaski Skyway (the bridge of death) due to a thermostat that looked like someone smashed it with a hammer. Ever since then, I have had a healthy respect for this inexpensive but critical cooling system component.

BTW, I wonder if Joe sells a "radiator hose kit"? When I squeeze the upper radiator hose at the water pump outlet, the rubber crunches audibly like when we step on very cold very dry snow. Anyone know what that crunching sound is?

P.S. I bought a 32 mm socket but it's too large for the crankshaft bolt

[tangalora]

Besides the mistake of purchasing that too-large brand new 32 mm socket, I picked up for two bucks at a Sunday afternoon garage sale what was billed as a "Harmonic Balancer Puller Kit" (see photo below).

This kit appears to require two or three bolt holes to thread into.Q: Does anyone think a three-bolt harmonic-balancer puller will work?

The other method would be to use a three-pronged 7-inch pulley remover; but all I found in the auto parts stores was the six-inch variety. The two-pronged pulley remover that came with my garage-sale kit is both too short (six inches) and has only two legs (instead of three) so I don't think it will do.

If the screw-into 3 holes harmonic-balancer method works, I'll be OK; otherwise, I guess I'll have to hit up Sears for that three-legged 7-inch pulley removal tool noted in other threads.

[tangalora]

To help others visualize the situation ...Here's a shot of the two-legged six-inch pulley remover positioned for action.

Just looking at it worries me; the tool seems over-extended on the 7-inch pulley. With only two legs, neither of which has much of a grip, I'd suspect there's a good chance all I'll do is destroy the lip of the crankshaft pulley with this setup.

Of course, if the pulley comes out willingly, it might work; but I think I should employ the right tool for the job and this six-inch tool seems to be inadequate.

Removing the less-than-32-mm crankshaft nut is still my main next step, but, as for the pulley ... unfortunately, all the pulley removers I saw at the local auto parts stores were of the six-inch variety.

P.S. Sorry about the rust (it has rained a few times since the engine was exposed).

[tangalora]

To help others visualize the situation ...Here is a shot of the face of the 6 1/2 inch wide crankshaft pulley (aka harmonic balancer).

Notice the inside bolts (which someone said were for weight balance).Also notice the empty threaded holes of unknown dimensions.

Q1: Does anyone know the thread size & depth of the holes?

Q2: Can a bolt or two be removed (temporarily) from the crankshaft pulley?

Q3: Can those holes & bolts be used with the bolt-in harmonic-balancer puller?

[tangalora]

Quote »Again, so that the next person doesn't make my same mistakes ...[/quote]I learned (the hard way) that the minimum size needed for the wrap-around chain wrench is deceivingly long ...

At that Sunday afternoon garage sale (which was really more of a flea market than a garage sale), I also picked up this el cheapo chain wrench locking pliars (or whatever it's called) so I could spin the crankshaft to align the pulley notches to the #1 cylinder TDC dowel on the lower timing case cover.

The 19 inch chain wrench looked fine all stretched out on a table ... but afterward ... when I wrapped it around our 1990 Q45 cranshaft pulley, I found how close a margin of error 19 inches gets us.

Specifically, given the circumferential equation C = pi x D; and given that D is about 6 inches (the outer diameter is roughly 6 1/2 inches but that includes the lip) then the actual crankshaft pulley circumference is about 22/7 x 6 inches ~= 19 inches.

Whew! We made it by the skin of our teeth.

In hindsight, I recommend two improvements for those following in our footsteps:

1. It has been suggested we should wrap an old serpentine belt around the pulley (to protect the soft steel from the hard steel chain wrench) ...

2. I suggest you buy a 20 inch chain wrench or larger for this task as I could barely lock the pliars (given we were latched onto the very last link)..

[tangalora]

Quote »The chain wrench allows us to spin the crankshaft ...[/quote]I was mildly surprised that it was not difficult to spin the engine with the chain wrench, even without adding my favorite tool (our three foot 1 inch ID pipe).

I could feel the Q wheeze a bit, with a heavy sigh and a lighter relaxation; before I knew it, I was on the compression side (left side facing the engine) of the crank angle sensor (CAS).

With just an additional twisting effort, we were at #1 piston top dead center (TDC) judged by the lower timing case position dowel lining up with the left-most of the 7 crankshaft pulley notches.

Q: Assuming the engine spins clockwise (facing the engine), does that place those notches on the ignition-timing "advance" side?If so, how many degrees of advance does each notch gives us?

Q: More importantly, how close do I have to get?That is, is it OK that I'm off by a millimeter or so as shown by the photo below? Or does it have to be dead-on exact?

Q: I spun the crankshaft clockwise (facing the engine); could I still have accomplished the correct task spinning in the opposite direction?

Sorry for all the questions; but, every time I do something for the first time, I find there's LOTs I don't know yet. If Iwedo this right, others can follow in our footsteps with at least these questions laid to rest.

[tangalora]

Quote »It's time to remove the dreaded crankshaft pulley bolt ...[/quote]Previously, we covered setting the #1 piston to TDC on its compression stroke ... which turned out to be easy. Now it's time to plan for the removal of that stubborn crankshaft pulley bolt (reportedly the hardest task in this chain-guide R&R).

Normally socket size isn't a problem because we usually have a full set on hand; but my metric set stops at the early twenties so I have to buy the right sized socket for this 1990 Q45 crankshaft bolt.

Obviously 32 mm is too large; running the actual measurement (see photo) gets us 1 1/8 inches (1.125 inches) which (at 25.4 mm per inch) is about 28 1/2 millimeters.

Drat! That's a strange size. But there's some slop in this measurement.

I suspect 29 mm is an odd size too; so, I'll "guess" that the bolt head requires a 28 mm socket assuming it is metric (why did I think it was listed as a 30 or 32 mm bolt in a prior Nico thread?).

Q1: Do you think the crankshaft bolt is 28mm?

Q2: Do you think the threaded holes in the crankshaft pulley will hold the harmonic balancer without ripping the pulley apart?

Q: Any idea what the thread size is for these holes (so I can pick up the proper sized bolts)?

P.S. The threads say to somehow immobilize the crankshaft; do you think we can block the crank somehow with a small block of wood placed from the underside on the piston counterweights (since we have access from the oil pan)?

[911/Q45]

I'm 99% sure the crank bolt is 30mm, as I only have 27 and 30 in my tool box and I got it done with existing stock. Unfortunately, I can't reach in to check with things assembled. I used a 2 pronged puller and found that the pulley came off pretty easily, but I had low miles. I don't think those threaded holes will work, too close to the center of the pulley. I think you can remove a rubber plug below the starter and jam the flywheel with a big screwdriver to hold the crank while you loosen the big bolt. I used the starter to loosen mine, but your disassembly may have gone too far for that to work. If you can lock the crank, you won't need your chain wrench, as it is there to oppose the torque on the crank bolt.

[maxnix]

That chain wrench on the puleys makes me want to cry out!

Wouldn't a belt wrench be less of a risk? May not work but at least it wouldn't camage the pulleys.

[Q451990]

I think they just used the chain wrench at T3... My guess is that the pulley is pretty tough. In any case I'd prefer to see an old belt in there to protect the pully ribs.

Heath

[tangalora]

I'm 99% sure the crank bolt is 30mm

Yup. You are correct. The bolt is definately 30 mm.

Quote »I used a 2 pronged puller[/quote]I chipped the cast steel pulley using my dinky two-pronged puller;and I bent the brittle edges again trying to pry it out.

Quote »I don't think those threaded holes will work, too close to center[/quote]I agree but it may be the only hope I have. I wish I knew what SIZE those threads were in that pulley.Nothing I had on hand (I don't have much by way of bolts) fit.

Quote »you can remove a rubber plug at the starter to jam the flywheel [/quote]No need to. The 30mm bolt came off without a sound after I locked the chain wrench around the pulley and twisted with a 30 inch 1 inch ID cheater bar on an 18 inch breaker bar on a new 30 mm deep impact socket. The fact there was no visible damage to the hard pulley ribs lulled me into a false sense of security. That pulley may be hard on those ribs, but it's very brittle at the edges as shown in photos I'll post subsequently.

Wouldn't a belt wrench be less of a risk?

I do recommend the next person use a LONGER chain wrench so they can protect the ribs with an old section of belt; but my chain wrench was too short (as discussed previously) to afford that luxury.

My guess is that the pulley is pretty tough.

Yes, it's hard. But brittle. Well after dark tonight I managed to break that apparently cast steel pulley in two places on the lip; the first when I used the wrong puller (too small) and the second when I used the wrong tool (prybar). However, I might have had the bolt in too far ... nobody said anything about how to pull out a pulley when you have to put the bolt back in to push against it. I only learned belatedly to remove a hugely thick nut on that bolt to give it room (I think). I've made sooooo many mistakes, I hope the next person can follow this without repeating my errors!

Tonight, I canvassed the neighborhood for a larger pulley puller which I obtained from a neighbor who works on construction equipment. Unfortunately it doesn't fit because it's just too large. Sigh. I'll try to quickly post pictures so you can better see what the problem is.

I'm ready to give up on the idea of a pulley puller with arms on the lip.I am thinking of going back to the harmonic balancer idea. That pulley lip is just way too fragile for comfort.

[tangalora]

I wish I knew this BEFORE I tried to remove the pulley, but the next person should probably remove the fat washer (see photo) below on the crankshaft bolt when they put it back in order to center the pulley puller on the bolt!

Otherwise they stand the risk of trying to pull off a pulley that is still bolted (albeit loosly).

[tangalora]

Another thing I now know that I wish for others to not do is use a wimpy pulley puller on the outside lip of the brittle pulley.

This was a very bad idea!

[tangalora]

If you're reading this in preparation for doing your own crankshaft pulley R&R, this is what happens when you use the wrong tool in the wrong place!

[tangalora]

For the next person to benefit ... don't give up on the proper approach to strike out on your own using an unorthodox procedure (like trying to pry the pulley out).

It won't work!

[tangalora]

I thought this puller I borrowed from a construction-equipment mechanic might work better (notice it dwarfs the original dinky puller)...

[tangalora]

But this much larger gear puller is so heavy and spidery that I had a devil of a time just positioning it on the crankshaft pulley.

[tangalora]

Basically, this heavy-duty gear puller arms are too fat to fit in convenient places around the crankshaft pulley.

I can't find a good spot to put the two or three arms?Even if I did ... they'd still be on that proven brittle lip. Am I doing something wrong here?

Where DO you put those arms?

[tangalora]

By the way, some things did go right.For example, I wasn't sure WHICH way to turn the bolt to loosen it.

I first tried the standard counter-clockwise direction, and it worked. So, if you're following this years from now in preparation of doing your own work, you'll have an advantage I didn't have.

I used an 18 inch long half inch breaker bar plus a 30 inch cheater pipe on the 30 mm deep impact socket to turn the crankcase nut. The 20 inch chain pliars were extended so far I had to rubber-band the end because it wouldn't lock.

A normal rubber band wouldn't have worked; what I used is a slice of tire tube (strongest rubber bands in the world!) wrapped a few times around the handle. This (surprisingly enough) worked just fine.

As I spun the engine counterclockwise (facing the engine), the rubber-banded chain wrench settled against the alternator and the bolt was easily spun out.

[tangalora]

Another thing I learned is I wasted my time setting the Q45 up to TDC on the #1 piston compression stroke previously. When I removed the crankcase nut, that delicate setting was moved.

[color]I'm still not sure which direction the engine is supposed to be turned to set up #1 compression TDC (does it matter)?[/color]

So, being scared of moving the engine backward and messing something up, I replaced the breaker bar with a 24 inch ratchet bar, which easily allowed me to spin the engine in the clockwise direction (facing the engine) to reset the #1 piston to TDC on the compression stroke.

But, how close should I get it?

(There are so many things I don't know that I hope the next person gets the benefit of!).

[tangalora]

Is this close enough?

[tangalora]

Or do we have to get it lined up exactly?

By the way, I had to turn the engine backward to get it here 'cause the engine wheezed and gurgled and kind'a moves in chunky increments.

Is it ok to turn the engine counterclockwise (facing the engine)?Which way does it turn normally anyway?

[tangalora]

Sorry I'm being so quick but I only get to work at night during the week and I wanted to get you this info quickly and I gotta run off to the hardware store to try to guess at metric bolts to fit that harmonic balancer set of holes.

Given that those pulley lips are about as fragile as a kid whose led a sheltered emotional life I'd really like to know what YOU GUYS used that worked.

I mean, everything I tried to remove that pulley so far backfired on me.But, I'm willing to try another approach.

I might even have to order a new one from Joe and just bank the thing out. (That would be emotionally satisfying ).

[tangalora]

I just realized something. Maybe I don't have to put the bolt back loosly in order for the crankshaft puller or harmonic balancer to gain a hold on something firm.

Can we just put the center of the pullers in that center hole WITHOUT the bolt put in loosly?

Even so, I still have the question of how you guys get that pulley off without tearing the fragile edges like a lip-biting fan at an overtime sudden death athletic match.

[911/Q45]

Turning the engine counterclockwise is no big deal. Try to avoid bracing things on the alternator, cracking or deforming it will be expensive. You shouldn't need to put the bolt in to use the puller. You might try gently tapping near the center of the pulley assembly to break it loose. If I remember correctly, once it came loose it just slipped off with very little resistance. Any angle on the force used to remove it causes binding.

[DAEDALUS]

You shouldn't need to put the bolt in to use the puller.

It might depend on the size/shape of the pushpoint on the puller. Make sure there's no chance of damaging the first couple of threads in the crankshaft. Probably not likely, but it'd be a pretty bad thing to do.

I cracked the pully too the first time. See if one of the ridges is thicker than the others (looks like it). Had to buy a couple 2-jaw pullers before finding one that works. Just don't pull near the timing marks!

[Cdon851]

What's the problem?

Is the problem there isn't enough room to get a grip or is the problem the pulley is on too tight?

Judging from the pictures there doesn't seem to be enough meat on that pully to get a grip on anything. Can you just bang it off with a hammer?

Can you pull out some of those balance bolts and use them with the puller without the legs you pictured earlier?

Do you have a torch to heat it up and spray wd40 to loosen the pulley?

From the looks of it I would suggest you try to remove a few bolts in the center of the pulley and use them on that tool without the legs!

[Jesda]

Scott Jackson did my chain guides. Here's how he removed the pulley: