pros/cons of going turbo KA or SR20?
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Kaioshin1982
- Posts: 1738
- Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2003 4:55 pm
- Car: Not a 240 =) Thinking of getting one again...
debating over with engine is better is like debating over honda/nissan.... just stop this and get along. and like someone said, people should compliment on other's project wether its a SR or KA. If one can produce big horse power, just say job well done. Dont say "Oh, i could have done better with the other engine." Fast car is a fast car regardless what car, engine, or color, how many stickers...
Just because it's not your way does not mean it won't work or that it's ghetto. Using all brand new parts can still lead to the same problems you might run into using used parts. Throwing money at a car to make t fast is easy. Throwing your time, and hard work into it takes much more effort. Lets not be so judgemental.
No, I'm not saying that at all. Nor do I throw $ at my car (I wish I could though). Just because you buy expensive new parts does not mean that the car will run well or perform better. BUT if you were to play the percentage game, which side would you choose? I rock used parts on my own car too... but it doesn't give me the piece of mind that I get from all the new parts I install. I'm not being judgmental, to each his own. But I do speak from experience. I have had a lot of stupid problems with used parts.
you're right I like tinkering with the 240, and do my own work instead of bragging that "this shop did MY car for me." If someone put all the work into my car, turboing it from A to Z (for ungodly amounts of money from the"paycheck") I couldn't justify calling it my own achievement.
OK. Well, I don't recall mentioning anything about paying other people to work on my car for me. I have invested like half as much money into tools as my car so therefore, I don't have to deal with that.
The SAFC II is great. But you should still factor in a decent buffer in your fuel map for air density.
No, I'm not saying that at all. Nor do I throw $ at my car (I wish I could though). Just because you buy expensive new parts does not mean that the car will run well or perform better. BUT if you were to play the percentage game, which side would you choose? I rock used parts on my own car too... but it doesn't give me the piece of mind that I get from all the new parts I install. I'm not being judgmental, to each his own. But I do speak from experience. I have had a lot of stupid problems with used parts.
you're right I like tinkering with the 240, and do my own work instead of bragging that "this shop did MY car for me." If someone put all the work into my car, turboing it from A to Z (for ungodly amounts of money from the"paycheck") I couldn't justify calling it my own achievement.
OK. Well, I don't recall mentioning anything about paying other people to work on my car for me. I have invested like half as much money into tools as my car so therefore, I don't have to deal with that.
The SAFC II is great. But you should still factor in a decent buffer in your fuel map for air density.
i never really understood the whole honda vs nissan vs toyota thing. i mean i just like cars. sometimes i bring out my civic and these poser drifters talk smack. and then i bring out my s13 and people talk crap. "i have a sr20 in my garage blah blah".
but last weekend when i went to meet with "drifters" i saw my old drifting partner shawn. and well..... we were the only two drifting. the rest gave me excuses.
but when i had my ae86..... those guys were all nice. but they still had crap to say about my civic. lol. i dont mind it though. i know theyre played out. but i like my civic.
but last weekend when i went to meet with "drifters" i saw my old drifting partner shawn. and well..... we were the only two drifting. the rest gave me excuses.
but when i had my ae86..... those guys were all nice. but they still had crap to say about my civic. lol. i dont mind it though. i know theyre played out. but i like my civic.
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SimpleEnigma
- Posts: 277
- Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 2:27 pm
- Car: 1992 240sx Coupe
I think all of you have made very fair comparisons between the two engines. Undoubtedly the SR20 is a very good engine. The thing I think u must remember is that the SR20 is built to be a racing engine. It is designed to spin faster and has a stronger drive system than the KA, all in all a good solid powerplant. But, it is true, as the old saying goes, "There is no replacement for displacement." The KA simply has more potential for Hp gains simply because it is bigger. The only thing that i have heard that is a true downside to going turbo KA is the Crank and rods. In order to achieve the huge HP gains you are looking for the underside of the engine needs to be rebuilt in order to take the added stress of turbo. It also might be a good idea to do this because i know that many of you are using ur DD and therefore it has a lot of miles on it. With new rods and pistons, a balanced crank, and resetting the rev limiter, i dont see why the KA wouldnt be able to spin as fast as the SR20, especially the KA24DE. I know that for my 240sx coupe, the redline is like 6800rpms.
So, it really just comes down to what u are looking for. Whether you want to let it be and just strengthen the underside of the engine or just completely replace the engine altogether. But, it just doesnt make sense to me to replace a bigger engine with a smaller one. Just think though...the amount of boost it takes to get an SR20DET up to 400whp is a heck of a lot more than it takes to get a KA24DE up to the same Hp range. Might end up savin u some cash there cuz the Stock t-25 on the SR 20 is only good up to about 15psi before u risk burning it up.
So it really boils down to two things. Do you want a smaller engine that already comes with the hardware for turbo, or a bigger one that needs a bit of work before you can go high boost?
Addedly...id take a NASCAR engine over an F1 anyday. 1.) Its a freakin monster (750hp NA outta 350ci) and two, i just love v-8s.
So, it really just comes down to what u are looking for. Whether you want to let it be and just strengthen the underside of the engine or just completely replace the engine altogether. But, it just doesnt make sense to me to replace a bigger engine with a smaller one. Just think though...the amount of boost it takes to get an SR20DET up to 400whp is a heck of a lot more than it takes to get a KA24DE up to the same Hp range. Might end up savin u some cash there cuz the Stock t-25 on the SR 20 is only good up to about 15psi before u risk burning it up.
So it really boils down to two things. Do you want a smaller engine that already comes with the hardware for turbo, or a bigger one that needs a bit of work before you can go high boost?
Addedly...id take a NASCAR engine over an F1 anyday. 1.) Its a freakin monster (750hp NA outta 350ci) and two, i just love v-8s.
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SimpleEnigma
- Posts: 277
- Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 2:27 pm
- Car: 1992 240sx Coupe
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sil80drifter
- Posts: 1313
- Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2002 5:53 am
- Car: 1990 240SX Hatch
Man all these people think they know engines... lolsince this is getting alot of attention here Im gonna be pushing about 350-400 crank hp and i need a clutch for it should i go ACT or Cf ( which models for both do yu recommend) turbo guys plz help me also should i go with a flywheel too or keep the stock because the clutch will bite harder and the stock helps the engine going.. what do you guys think
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C-Kwik
- Moderator
- Posts: 8070
- Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2002 9:28 pm
- Car: 2013 Chevy Volt, 1991 Honda CRX DX
SimpleEnigma wrote:I think all of you have made very fair comparisons between the two engines. Undoubtedly the SR20 is a very good engine. The thing I think u must remember is that the SR20 is built to be a racing engine. It is designed to spin faster and has a stronger drive system than the KA, all in all a good solid powerplant. But, it is true, as the old saying goes, "There is no replacement for displacement." The KA simply has more potential for Hp gains simply because it is bigger. The only thing that i have heard that is a true downside to going turbo KA is the Crank and rods. In order to achieve the huge HP gains you are looking for the underside of the engine needs to be rebuilt in order to take the added stress of turbo. It also might be a good idea to do this because i know that many of you are using ur DD and therefore it has a lot of miles on it. With new rods and pistons, a balanced crank, and resetting the rev limiter, i dont see why the KA wouldnt be able to spin as fast as the SR20, especially the KA24DE. I know that for my 240sx coupe, the redline is like 6800rpms.
So, it really just comes down to what u are looking for. Whether you want to let it be and just strengthen the underside of the engine or just completely replace the engine altogether. But, it just doesnt make sense to me to replace a bigger engine with a smaller one. Just think though...the amount of boost it takes to get an SR20DET up to 400whp is a heck of a lot more than it takes to get a KA24DE up to the same Hp range. Might end up savin u some cash there cuz the Stock t-25 on the SR 20 is only good up to about 15psi before u risk burning it up.
So it really boils down to two things. Do you want a smaller engine that already comes with the hardware for turbo, or a bigger one that needs a bit of work before you can go high boost?
Addedly...id take a NASCAR engine over an F1 anyday. 1.) Its a freakin monster (750hp NA outta 350ci) and two, i just love v-8s.
Getting a KA to physically rev to 8000 RPM is not a simple matter of bolting on parts. The KA has harmonics problems that start somewhere in the neighborhood of 7500 RPM.
The SR is no more of a race motor by design than a KA or CA. KA's have been used in the NASPORT GT3 Series races for years. But support is limited still as these motors have restrictions as to the type of mods. And the way they make their power is through wild cams, high compression and high revs. Not exactly a streetable combination.
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C-Kwik
- Moderator
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- Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2002 9:28 pm
- Car: 2013 Chevy Volt, 1991 Honda CRX DX
http://popularmechanics.com/au...phtml
This article may be a bit old, but should give you some insight into both CART and IRL cars. BTW, for SCC magazine readers, you'll recognize the author.
This article may be a bit old, but should give you some insight into both CART and IRL cars. BTW, for SCC magazine readers, you'll recognize the author.
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SinceByMan
- Posts: 92
- Joined: Wed May 14, 2003 10:31 pm
Quote »I know the saying goes, “There is no replacement for cubic displacement.” but, I would take the SR over the KA any day of the week. Besides, what would you rather have? A big block NASCAR engine or a F1 engine?[/quote]I'd rather have the NASCAR engine, you can build your own from used parts for pretty cheap, and they are streetable too, you just have to convert them to wet sump oiling systems.
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sil80drifter
- Posts: 1313
- Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2002 5:53 am
- Car: 1990 240SX Hatch
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sil80drifter
- Posts: 1313
- Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2002 5:53 am
- Car: 1990 240SX Hatch
How much can you build a turbo KA for? I think that around 2k for a fairly decent installation of a turbo is pretty good. Most people spend that much just buying the manifold, turbo, and intercooler. If you're goals are modest, there's no point in spending a fortune getting an intercooler the size of your windshield. I do, however, think that you shouldn't have skimped on the turbo manifold. I can almost guarantee that that'll be the first thing to go, even if it is tuned right.
I don't understand why people are knocking his set-up. Yea, if he yanked just any old turbo from a random diesel, and slapped it on there, I'd understand. But he actually had it rebuilt, and parts that he listed weren't bad. I've seen much worse that performed fairly decently. By decently, I mean, not bad for an out-dated non-aftermarket turbo.
It's true that he could've spent the extra money for a bb turbo and spooled up quicker, but that's a luxury not everyone has. Plus, he can upgrade to a better turbo once he saves up some money.
The thing is, you're going to blow your motor if you don't have properly working equipment (already failing used parts, and/or improper tuning), regardless of what kind of name brand parts you have. What impressed me about his build up is that he actually took the time to rebuild the turbo and is aiming to build a KA-t cheap and effectively.
I, personally, would probably put a thicker metal head gasket in there jusy as precautionary measures. Good luck on your build-up.
Kenny, Underground-Motorsports
I don't understand why people are knocking his set-up. Yea, if he yanked just any old turbo from a random diesel, and slapped it on there, I'd understand. But he actually had it rebuilt, and parts that he listed weren't bad. I've seen much worse that performed fairly decently. By decently, I mean, not bad for an out-dated non-aftermarket turbo.
It's true that he could've spent the extra money for a bb turbo and spooled up quicker, but that's a luxury not everyone has. Plus, he can upgrade to a better turbo once he saves up some money.
The thing is, you're going to blow your motor if you don't have properly working equipment (already failing used parts, and/or improper tuning), regardless of what kind of name brand parts you have. What impressed me about his build up is that he actually took the time to rebuild the turbo and is aiming to build a KA-t cheap and effectively.
I, personally, would probably put a thicker metal head gasket in there jusy as precautionary measures. Good luck on your build-up.
Kenny, Underground-Motorsports
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sil80drifter
- Posts: 1313
- Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2002 5:53 am
- Car: 1990 240SX Hatch
karay240, whose setup are you talking about? If it's mine, then my turbo is low mileage and in good condition, and my manifold is a self-weld project which will be very cheap to re-do if it should crack on me, but so far every manifold my friend has made from similar parts has stood to enormous abuse and were fine.
Nathan and J-Spec...All I have to say about this topic is that price does not always guarantee quality. Craftsmanship does. Yes, a lot of good shops and people and products cost a pretty penny. Nevertheless, what makes a turbo project good is the know-how, not the price of the parts (this assumes you have decent parts and just because they are cheap doesn't mean they are unreliable). Nathan, I don't know what goals you have for your car, but my goals (even the highest ones of 350whp in a year or so) are not that hard to attain without spending too much cash. Let alone my current goal of 250whp. With lots of fuel and a good regard for timing there is little that can go wrong, save some unforeseen extreme failure of a part. Not the engine, but some part of the kit. The only thing I can think of is the turbo going on me. Big whoop, I can rebuild it and be none for the worse. But I have no reason to believe that it will be a problem, since it is in very decent shape.
Here’s is where I saved, and I believe these savings do not affect the reliability or performance of my kit:FMIC: yeah I could have gotten a humongous one for 1k+ bucks. Why would I?Injectors: Sure they sell them for $500+.The rebuilt ones flow just as good.Exhaust/manifold: Mine fit the care perfectly, much better than any catbacks I've seen around, because they were custom made for the car, and do not hang as low as some of the N1s or etc. Also, the SOHC doesn't have many options for the manifold out there to begin with, it’s usually a custom log or equal length manifold made for the turbo you go with. Oil lines/water lines: Why pay $100 on eBay for each set of lines when a truck shop can make the same exact ones (steel braided etc) for around $10?BOV: I don't need a $200+ BOV to do the job of a $30 BOV. If it can hold up to 20 psi without leaking and I; only running 10psi at the most...Why spend extra money on it? For the bling? MBC: Those work really well for quite a few people, why spend hundreds on EBCs, when I don't have to?
I think that's about all for now. For me this works.
sil80
Nathan and J-Spec...All I have to say about this topic is that price does not always guarantee quality. Craftsmanship does. Yes, a lot of good shops and people and products cost a pretty penny. Nevertheless, what makes a turbo project good is the know-how, not the price of the parts (this assumes you have decent parts and just because they are cheap doesn't mean they are unreliable). Nathan, I don't know what goals you have for your car, but my goals (even the highest ones of 350whp in a year or so) are not that hard to attain without spending too much cash. Let alone my current goal of 250whp. With lots of fuel and a good regard for timing there is little that can go wrong, save some unforeseen extreme failure of a part. Not the engine, but some part of the kit. The only thing I can think of is the turbo going on me. Big whoop, I can rebuild it and be none for the worse. But I have no reason to believe that it will be a problem, since it is in very decent shape.
Here’s is where I saved, and I believe these savings do not affect the reliability or performance of my kit:FMIC: yeah I could have gotten a humongous one for 1k+ bucks. Why would I?Injectors: Sure they sell them for $500+.The rebuilt ones flow just as good.Exhaust/manifold: Mine fit the care perfectly, much better than any catbacks I've seen around, because they were custom made for the car, and do not hang as low as some of the N1s or etc. Also, the SOHC doesn't have many options for the manifold out there to begin with, it’s usually a custom log or equal length manifold made for the turbo you go with. Oil lines/water lines: Why pay $100 on eBay for each set of lines when a truck shop can make the same exact ones (steel braided etc) for around $10?BOV: I don't need a $200+ BOV to do the job of a $30 BOV. If it can hold up to 20 psi without leaking and I; only running 10psi at the most...Why spend extra money on it? For the bling? MBC: Those work really well for quite a few people, why spend hundreds on EBCs, when I don't have to?
I think that's about all for now. For me this works.
sil80
The only part that I think that you (sil80drifter) should've spent more money on is the boost controller. True, the MBC pretty much does the same thing that an electronic one does, but the EBC does it in a MUCH more controlled manner if you get a decent one. Depending on the EBC, some have hardly any spiking and the boost is MUCH more stable. Another added bonus w/ the EBC is that you can tune the EBC in conjunction w/ the fuel controler. Or vice versa (especially if you get them from a company that allows them to link up w/ one another). I think that it's great what you're doing, but Don't prove "them" right, run a EBC.
That's just my $0.02.
Oh, BTW, I think that you should run the EBC. lol.
That's just my $0.02.
Oh, BTW, I think that you should run the EBC. lol.
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sil80drifter
- Posts: 1313
- Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2002 5:53 am
- Car: 1990 240SX Hatch
Werd. EBC would be a very good thing for me, and I am thinking about it in the future, it's just that if I'm going to be running stock boost (6.5-7lbs) for now, the MBC is just there to keep it at that level, not make it any higher. Also, I'll be sure to pick the one that doesn't spike (as much if at all), whether it be ball and spring or needle type. I am def. getting an EBC some time later. The great thing about them is that even if used, they still work just as well, and if the actuator is tired, another one can be gotten easily, without having to replace the whole electronics part of it.
sil80
sil80
Boost is king for the low displacement guys like us. I think people really like the convenience of a SR. Bullet proof bottom end. I got the chance to take one apart two weeks ago. I have to say I really did not like them at all (jealousy!!). But now all I have to say is "the inside of that engine is absolutlly beautiful" awesome build quailty. Totally stout engine. I'll never diss an SR again.
I think people just confuse engines with boost. You know when you see a japanese video with a Silvia w/ an SR blasting it sideways down some track and you want that. Then you see your friend's KA and it can't even burn out. You think "junk" the JDM engine is way better. I say the KA with 6-10 psi will be more than enough for most 240 fans. It is boost , not which engine you have.
Long story short -- my friend had VW w/ a VR6 engine in it. 178hp 177tq (stock). It was awesome with lots of pull all though the rev range. 160 whp = 14.9et @ 90 mph on slicks. Pretty good for NA but he wanted more. Too bad the VR6 was the best engine so no RB OR SR swap for him. So he added 8 psi to the mix. Holy moly huge huge differance. 290 whp = 13.6et at 107 mph on STREET tires(not drag radials either).
So what I'm saying is that both engines are great.
SR - $3000 -- +1000w/ installation 170whp at 7 psi KA - w/ Greddy turbo kit(price went down) - $2699 w/ greddy fmic kit= $3600 = 220whp an 250tq at 7.8 psi.
moral of post -- Shut up , if you don't have money and if you do , buy want ever the h3ll you want!!
I think people just confuse engines with boost. You know when you see a japanese video with a Silvia w/ an SR blasting it sideways down some track and you want that. Then you see your friend's KA and it can't even burn out. You think "junk" the JDM engine is way better. I say the KA with 6-10 psi will be more than enough for most 240 fans. It is boost , not which engine you have.
Long story short -- my friend had VW w/ a VR6 engine in it. 178hp 177tq (stock). It was awesome with lots of pull all though the rev range. 160 whp = 14.9et @ 90 mph on slicks. Pretty good for NA but he wanted more. Too bad the VR6 was the best engine so no RB OR SR swap for him. So he added 8 psi to the mix. Holy moly huge huge differance. 290 whp = 13.6et at 107 mph on STREET tires(not drag radials either).
So what I'm saying is that both engines are great.
SR - $3000 -- +1000w/ installation 170whp at 7 psi KA - w/ Greddy turbo kit(price went down) - $2699 w/ greddy fmic kit= $3600 = 220whp an 250tq at 7.8 psi.
moral of post -- Shut up , if you don't have money and if you do , buy want ever the h3ll you want!!
Probably the best out post on this topic yet.D-UNIT wrote:Long story short -- my friend had VW w/ a VR6 engine in it. 178hp 177tq (stock). It was awesome with lots of pull all though the rev range. 160 whp = 14.9et @ 90 mph on slicks. Pretty good for NA but he wanted more. Too bad the VR6 was the best engine so no RB OR SR swap for him. So he added 8 psi to the mix. Holy moly huge huge differance. 290 whp = 13.6et at 107 mph on STREET tires(not drag radials either).
moral of post -- Shut up , if you don't have money and if you do , buy want ever the h3ll you want!!
And my bro had 2 VR's (MKIII GTI, and 'Rado SLC) oh my god how I loved those cars.